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ChrisHawkes
03-20-2008, 06:33 PM
Earlier this month I applied to beta test the new v9 Platinum edition. Although I've not spent a huge amount of time testing, I was encouraged by what I've read, seen, and tried. However, what a complete let down, after all the hype of the new v9 Platinum features the new prices can only be classed as total extortion.

As an example, I have 20 clients all using the same 3-user application. Besides the cost of the developer version, the runtime has cost me $499. To upgrade these clients using the new licencing prices will now cost $2598 -and that's the upgrade price. Furthermore, if I want to sell any more runtime applications I have to purchase even more licences at even higher prices. These clients cannot, and will not stand for these prices, therefore, when my application can no longer do what my clients wish it to do, they will go somewhere else, or I will have to.

In addition to this, there is still no decent documentation.

Alpha has just priced itself out of my market.

Richard Rabins
03-20-2008, 07:57 PM
Chris -

I dont know if you noticed that we do offer "OEM RUN ENGINE PRICING" for precisely this scenario.

i.e. if you have built a commercial application that you are selling to multiple clients - you would qualify for OEM RUN ENGINE pricing that would fully take into account the price of your application to your customer and continue to make Alpha Five a very good choice from a development AND an economic point of view.

Sincerely

NoeticCC
03-20-2008, 08:01 PM
Chris -

I dont know if you noticed that we do offer "OEM RUN ENGINE PRICING" for precisely this scenario.

i.e. if you have built a commercial application that you are selling to multiple clients - you would qualify for OEM RUN ENGINE pricing that would fully take into account the price of your application to your customer and continue to make Alpha Five a very good choice from a development AND an economic point of view.

Sincerely
Thanks for confirming this! :)

fsi
03-20-2008, 08:06 PM
I wonder if the math is correct... you've got 60 total users & a current 20-user license? So wouldn't you get an upgrade price of $1k for the 20 user upgrade; then you'd be purchasing two additional 20-user packs @ $1,400 each? Total just a few dollars shy of $3,800?

And for the talk of oem engine availability, gotta guess that's going to be $7K or better. Otherwise, I'd guess it would have been listed with all the other pricing info. Doesn't make much sense that Alpha would price the oem for less than the cost of 100 users (plus some).

I saw a comment by another user theorizing that v8 will remain the tool of choice for the smaller shops (ie: you), while the larger corporate-size developers will be able to justify the additional cost for the additional features. Plus, they have the deep pockets necessary to pop for 100 user license right off the bat.

NoeticCC
03-20-2008, 08:15 PM
I wonder if the math is correct... you've got 60 total users & a current 20-user license? So wouldn't you get an upgrade price of $1k for the 20 user upgrade; then you'd be purchasing two additional 20-user packs @ $1,400 each? Total just a few dollars shy of $3,800?


Nope, the upgrade price counts for EVERYTHING you buy... as long as you have an Alpha product, you can buy everything on that price list at the prices quoted - AND keep all your existing licenses, too... so even if you just have a developer license for A5v8 you can buy as many RTs, the WAS and so forth at Alpha Upgrade prices...

Richard Rabins
03-20-2008, 08:17 PM
Jon

the OEM pricing is designed on a custom basis for each situation. For that reason it is not listed. Not for any other reason

It is designed to make it affordable to let developers build applications and price their app at the right price for their market.

If for example a developer has created a product that he/she wants to sell for $99 to their base of customers, OEM pricing will be substantially less than $99 per unit

milesjg
03-21-2008, 12:09 AM
OEM. Custom priced for my application. ? Whats this mean. I sell all my apps for 99.00, no make that 999.00. I only have one sell, plan on 18000. I have not sold any, don't know how many will. I sell my product with different features for different prices. I have to provide what to prove what. ?
No matter what the scenerio this is nothing more than A5 getting money for every app the developer sells. I wonder how long V8, with its runtime scenerio is going to be supported (i.e. upgrades). Even if it is, in order to keep my product current with the world of information technology is going to require upgrade. Being forced to. Yea I know - Alphas product. Take it or leave it.
And still the documentation *&%@s.
This is exactly the scenario I shopped around to avoid. I purchased V8 in the middle of Jan. along with the 3u runtime. I just started on switching over to a new platform (a5). Now a upgrade price & this runtime. A5 is no longer a small developer platform (note the word small), not with a pay as you sell your product approach. What kind of a deal I can get for runtime will determine, to a extent my product price. My market - the 99.00 dollar single edition is more than 55 percent the price of my product. (And my customers thought gas prices go up quick)
And still the documentation *&96@s.
I wonder if there is a 69 day money back satisfaction refund available for A5

Richard Rabins
03-21-2008, 12:34 AM
Our OEM plan is simple, affordable, and takes into account scenarios that your describe.

It is not designed to inhibit your ability to succeed with your commercial application. It is designed to let you use Alpha Five PLATINUM which will give you a competitive edge in terms of continuing to improve your offering and continuing to make your custom app(s) increasingly attractive to your customers. Just email sales@alphasoftware.com and they will come up with a plan that works for you.

If you are upset that we are continually working to improve Alpha Five itself, then that is a different issue.

Our motivation to improve Alpha Five is no different than any other software company - It is critical to respond to customer requirements and it is critical to innovate in order to solidly and improve ones overall standing in the market place.

You may want to check out this recent Blog posting on Innovation and Alpha Five http://alphasoftware.blogspot.com/search?q=sexy

Sincerely

DaveM
03-21-2008, 12:40 AM
I can't even view the OEM RUN ENGINE page. I am on Windows Vista Ultimate and iexplore7 with all the settings to put me at risk in the browser.

What did I do wrong?

Pricing: One should not expect v9 to be the same price as v8 when v8 is still on sale. I may think it a bit high, but marketing saus otherwise.

Being in the car business, I see new models come out with newer prices each year and if they don't sell, prices get reduced by the factory. It is just business. If you want a new(just came out) pontiac g8, expect to pay 3 to 5 grand over sticker for a while. The prices will level as always to the market demand.

I for one want the product, but not sure I can afford to invest the needed funds for was, v9 and 20 user runtime. I may have to settle for runtime 20 and was for v8 as it drops in demand. Hurts cause I got a good taste of v9.

One consolation though is I can go back to VB. Let's see that would be about 2200 for vb as needed, about 1500 for crystal reports, and then .net adds and needed adds for vb that would be another 1700 minimum. OOps, I forgot the extra hours to do anything useful. VB is a lot slower to accomplish anything.

NAW! I'll stay with Alpha.

milesjg
03-21-2008, 01:11 AM
Who said anything about being upset about A5 continually being improved. ? I did'nt. I am not upset about a new version. Quite the contrary, was looking forward to it.. It's the runtime I'm upset about.
In case you did not catch on alot of that is my way of complaining about the luck of the draw on my timing. All you said is Alpha is going to do what it takes to make money. In this case it is going to cost the customer more. Imaging that. Like I said I can take it or leave it. A5 is a great product. In my opinion, for the market it targets, the best. Hands down. I looked at MANY (dbase, xharbor, filemaker, foxpro, and more, even thought about C++ till I sobered up) before deciding on it. But I can honestly say that if the V8 runtime was like V9 I would have went with a unlimited runtime platform. What little resources I have are already invested in A5 so I'll just have to bite the whatever and see if I can live with V9 runtime or find another platform. New prospects should investigate this oem scenerio carefully. If your sales comes back and says pay the 99.00 till you have a customer base to negotiate with me is for greener places.

Richard Rabins
03-21-2008, 01:51 AM
Sorry If I missed the point you were making which related to timing.


Here is the scoop on that topic. Quite a few weeks ago we alerted people to the fact that PLATINUM was indeed coming soon, and it was exactly for the following reason.

We did not want people who bought yesterday or last week or last month etc to feel aggrieved because they were thinking "if they had told me there was a new version coming - i would have waited till it was here before buying."

This is why in recent weeks we have been promoting version 8 in the following way by saying "Alpha Five Platinum arrives soon.These offers end sooner! When you take advantage of this offer You will ALSO get full credit towards the purchase of Alpha Five Platinum Edition!"

The intent behind this approach is that from an economics perspective customers would be indifferent between waiting for v9 PLATINUM or getting V8 during these offer periods

You may in fact qualify for this credit. Just contact me at richard@alphasoftware.com at your convenience.

Thanks

jkukuda
03-21-2008, 03:46 AM
I can understand the need for changing the runtime pricing.
Here is my problem, I would like to advance my program, I am retired and I got into alpha5 ver 6, purchased a three user runtime.
went to version7, purchased a three user runtime.
Then version 8, purchased a three user runtime before I had my product ready.
I have a web site www.bonddetective.com and I'm almost there.
i offer my prospects my software for free for 6 mos. It is a tough market.
I now have no way for them to try my software for free. They will need a runtime for $99.
Is there a way to get a runtime that will expire after 6 mos if the license is not purchased? If not I'm stuck with ver 8 forever.

gmeredith17
03-21-2008, 07:26 AM
First of all Alpha is a good product. Like any software it has its positive and negative points but overall the positives far out way the negatives for small to medium developers. However, if the new runtime pricing structure is to be used for all future releases of Alpha 5 then I think they will lose custom. In addition to this they will have lost a huge selling point for bringing in new developers. This may be outweighed by its new features but I suspect not. I shopped around along time looking for a database with a suitable licensing structure and Alpha 5 offered the best deal. I think there original pricing structure was spot on and helped separate them from the crowd from a financial point of view as well as technical. This sadly has now been lost and although to be honest I wasn't going to upgrade straight away, now I will not be upgrading at all. V8 will meet my current and medium term needs so I would like to thank them for that but bitterly disappointed with the change in pricing structure.

Geoff

Richard Rabins
03-21-2008, 10:31 AM
if you are building a commercail or packaged app that you wish to sell to multiple customers THEN the run engine pricing that is listed does NOT apply to you.



In that case we have OEM (packaged) Licensing that is designed to take into account your pricing to your customers and any special situations. please contact sales@alphasoftware.com and they will come up with a custom license for you. It is not complicated, it is straight forward and is designed to continue to make Alpha Five attractive BOTH from a product and a business perspective.

thanks

ChrisHawkes
03-21-2008, 12:09 PM
Richard

I emailed asking you the OEM runtime pricing - So far no response to that email.

However, you say here that I need to speak to sales regarding MY situation. I have no intention to tell Alpha how many apps I sell and to whom they are sold - that is MY Business.

So, again, will Alpha explain their OEM runtime pricing in words of one syllable so that everyone knows what they will have to pay.

Please don't evade this request with sales marketing blurb as I have seen in this and other threads - To us developers, the bottom line is how we have to price our apps.

NoeticCC
03-21-2008, 12:20 PM
However, you say here that I need to speak to sales regarding MY situation. I have no intention to tell Alpha how many apps I sell and to whom they are sold - that is MY Business.

It seems to me that you have already posted most of the details they need on here (e.g. 20 clients for 1 app with 3 RTs each), apart from the price you charge per client/site... so if you are OK with posting that info on the Internet then surely telling Alpha Sales how much you usually charge for the app won't hurt too much if it means you qualify for OEM pricing instead?

ChrisHawkes
03-21-2008, 12:30 PM
No, that is just ONE app I have out there, and each one may have paid a different amount. I was relating just this ONE app to these clients ONLY, contrasting the difference in price. Additionally, I have not said who they are - That would be impossible due to contractual limitations.

I would expect that most developers have developed an app for a charity or similar entity where they have charged nothing for it. The new licencing rules will prevent that from happening. I deal with several charities who do not get charged by me because they have an annual income of less than $20,000 a year.

Richard Rabins
03-21-2008, 12:34 PM
Licensing for developers Building a commercial application

There has been a lot of speculation on the board in the last day about
licensing for developers building a pre-packaged commercial application that is to be sold to multiple clients (ie you build a gas station solution that you then want to market to as many gas station as you can.)

Our OEM (commerical package solution) license is designed for this scenario and will be very affordable and will allow you to sell to an unlimited number of clients.

Stay tuned for more details on this later today.

NoeticCC
03-21-2008, 12:52 PM
No, that is just ONE app I have out there, and each one may have paid a different amount. I was relating just this ONE app to these clients ONLY, contrasting the difference in price. Additionally, I have not said who they are - That would be impossible due to contractual limitations.

I would expect that most developers have developed an app for a charity or similar entity where they have charged nothing for it. The new licencing rules will prevent that from happening. I deal with several charities who do not get charged by me because they have an annual income of less than $20,000 a year.
It sounds like the OEM license will cover more than just the one app, so I should imagine that a developer who qualifies for an OEM license can use that in order to off-set free/charity work too...

Although I can't really see too many developers regularly taking on full custom jobs they don't take any payment for at all...

PS: I doubt very much that you need to tell Alpha who your customers are in order to get a quote for OEM licensing - after all you can't possibly know who your future clients will be!

Richard Rabins
03-21-2008, 01:01 PM
you are correct andrea

stay tuned

NoeticCC
03-21-2008, 01:09 PM
you are correct andrea

stay tuned

Is it possible that the OEM license is perhaps comparable to the "Unlimited RT license" there used to be? In that context it might make more sense...

Keith Hubert
03-21-2008, 01:15 PM
Hi Richard,

Please could you explain how OEM will work in the market place.

Will each application that I manage to sell, have to register and get an activation from Alpha?

NoeticCC
03-21-2008, 01:19 PM
Hi Richard,

Please could you explain how OEM will work in the market place.

Will each application that I manage to sell, have to register and get an activation from Alpha?
I don't see why they would have to register anywhere - they just need to enter the license key to get the RT to work... and the dialog for the license prompt is fully customisable so no mention of Alpha needs to be made...

Richard Rabins
03-21-2008, 01:32 PM
I don't see why they would have to register anywhere - they just need to enter the license key to get the RT to work... and the dialog for the license prompt is fully customisable so no mention of Alpha needs to be made...

Andrea you are correct!

we will be posting details shortly that should address the vast majority of concerns expressed.

Thanks

DaveM
03-21-2008, 01:37 PM
i don't want my customers to have to register with anybody except me.

EDIT: I have tried to call sales, get the message that the person I am trying to reach is unavailable.

NoeticCC
03-21-2008, 01:42 PM
i don't want my customers to have to register with anybody except me.

They don't... :)

DaveM
03-21-2008, 02:35 PM
No disrespect Andrea, but I want to hear that from Alpha BEFORE i swallow the costs.

NoeticCC
03-21-2008, 02:38 PM
No disrespect Andrea, but I want to hear that from Alpha BEFORE i swallow the costs.

Perfectly sensible! :)

Richard Rabins
03-21-2008, 02:48 PM
OEM Run Engine Package Details (designed for developers building commercial, packaged software)

Price: one time flat fee: $599 - this OEM version will be available soon.

The OEM Run Engine License package is intended for developers who plan to create and sell packaged software using Alpha Five V9 Platinum. This package provides a more affordable alternative to purchasing per-seat runtime licenses. You can distribute an unlimited number of copies of your software for one flat licensing fee.

• Market and sell an unlimited number of copies of your packaged application.
• Easily replace the Alpha Five V9 banner with your own splash screen.
• Includes functionality of Alpha Five Version 8’s Runtime Plus License (allows your users to create their own letters/labels/reports).
• Designed for single-user, DBF file applications that don’t require SQL connectivity
• Distribute multiple different commercial packaged applications from the same license
__________________
Richard Rabins
Co Chairman
Alpha Software

DaveM
03-21-2008, 02:59 PM
Just google checked for VB professional 2008 and Crystal Reports 2008. VB can be had for under 400.00 now and Crystal reports with runtime is down to under 500.00. Imagine that and vb includes sql, and all the tools plus .net?. All I did was go there and read. Hope I didn't miss anything.

Now if you could work in vb as fast as alpha??? You still need some other tools.

I paid a lot lot more a few years ago.

now trying to call sales again.

DaveM
03-21-2008, 03:12 PM
I finally got through to sales.

I will be back in here for a bit and will probably go on to other places shortly.

Hope all you folks have great success!

BYE

trackmanpete
03-21-2008, 03:48 PM
[QUOTE=Richard Rabins;450697]OEM Run Engine Package Details (designed for developers building commercial, packaged software)

Price: one time flat fee: $599 - this OEM version will be available soon.

• Designed for single-user, DBF file applications that don’t require SQL connectivity
• Distribute multiple different commercial packaged applications from the same license
__________________

Ok, so that seems to be the bottom line. For what was originally a cost of $146 for V8 and $188 for the V8 runtime, it will now cost $900 for V9 with the runtime. That is for single user, no SQL. That is a bit of a hit, I would say, especially since I also bought V7 twice (once to get version 8 and never really did anything with v7) and haven't used any runtime yet, since I am still working on my project, started 2 years ago.

This is sad, as the new enhancements for the desktop are a nice addition, as I mentioned early, in particular the browse that never worked properly in v7 or v8.

I am sad, because I think this product and the people who run it have done a very nice job and certainly do deserve monetary rewards for their effort. I would think quantity over quality might be a better approach, but time will tell. With the economy hitting the skids and my being retired, but not yet on full retirement benefits, spending another $1000 to keep myself happy playing with Alpha 5 is a tall order and something I don't think my wife would appreciate. Especially since I still haven't come up with a finished product. Maybe I will wait, get my product done on V8 and see what happens down the road.

I guess being conditioned to getting weekly ads from Alpha for $99 versions of their product has conditioned me to expect less of a price increase.

turbojack
03-21-2008, 07:04 PM
This is sad, as the new enhancements for the desktop are a nice addition, as I mentioned early, in particular the browse that never worked properly in v7 or v8.

I agree. We can only hope that since they are going to keep V8 alive we will get a update to fix the browse so it works like any other MS product.