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Richard Rabins
03-21-2008, 02:47 PM
OEM Run Engine Package Details (designed for developers building commercial, packaged software)

Price: one time flat fee: $599 - this OEM version will be available soon.

The OEM Run Engine License package is intended for developers who plan to create and sell packaged software using Alpha Five V9 Platinum. This package provides a more affordable alternative to purchasing per-seat runtime licenses. You can distribute an unlimited number of copies of your software for one flat licensing fee.

• Market and sell an unlimited number of copies of your packaged application.
• Easily replace the Alpha Five V9 banner with your own splash screen.
• Includes functionality of Alpha Five Version 8’s Runtime Plus License (allows your users to create their own letters/labels/reports).
• Designed for single-user, DBF file applications that don’t require SQL connectivity
• Distribute multiple different commercial packaged applications from the same license

ChrisHawkes
03-21-2008, 03:09 PM
Richard

You say:-

• Designed for single-user, DBF file applications that don’t require SQL connectivity

Does this mean that the OEM runtime:
1. Will not be multi-user capable?
2. Not able to run apps with SQL capability

If this is the case then what is the point?

Raymond Lyons
03-21-2008, 03:23 PM
I have the same issue as Chris: 2 possible scenarios, neither of which seems to be addressed:

1. A client with, say 15 users, most of whom need to be able to connect to and use (via active link tables) a remote sql database (mysql in this case).

2. Basically the same thing except that the huge mysql Db is on the local network.

What is one to do?

Ray

Edit: I should add that in both cases the clients would have other A5 apps running that have no sql component. Are they going to need a separate license for that? They better not!

ChrisHawkes
03-21-2008, 06:37 PM
Richard

I assume from the lack of response that I'm correct in my interpretation that the OEM runtime will NOT have multi-user or the SQL etc capabilities.

If my assumption is correct I will not be buying the Platinum edition as all my apps are designed for multi-user systems, and the run engine licences that are NOT OEM out price the usefulness of Alpha to me as a developer.

So Richard, are you or Alpha going to confirm or deny:-

1. Will not be multi-user capable?
2. Not able to run apps with SQL capability

MikeC
03-21-2008, 07:38 PM
Ray,
Your best "deal" would be to purchase the 20-pack (cost is basically the same as for the 10-pack + 5-pack) for $999.00 .

https://www.alphasoftware.com/shop/alphafive/platinum/


Chris,
Several other threads have discussed (and discussed and discussed!) this ...

1. Will not be multi-user capable?
2. Not able to run apps with SQL capability
As Richard stated above,

• Designed for single-user, DBF file applications that don’t require SQL connectivity

The non-OEM Runtime does support multi-user and SQL.

Richard Rabins
03-21-2008, 07:39 PM
Richard

I assume from the lack of response that I'm correct in my interpretation that the OEM runtime will NOT have multi-user or the SQL etc capabilities.

If my assumption is correct I will not be buying the Platinum edition as all my apps are designed for multi-user systems, and the run engine licences that are NOT OEM out price the usefulness of Alpha to me as a developer.

So Richard, are you or Alpha going to confirm or deny:-

1. Will not be multi-user capable?
2. Not able to run apps with SQL capability

Chris

THE OEM price model is, as has been stated, for Single user apps, where there is no SQL capability required.

If the OEM price model does not apply to you, then the Regular Run Engines are the way to go.

An example scenario is:

You have multi user applications (that may or may not require SQL connectivity) that you are selling to more than one company then under the regular runtime you can achieve this.

Example

You have a 10 user app and you have 5 customers - ie you have 50 seats
then you would buy a 50 pack Run Engine license and
your cost per seat would $40. ( btw. Each user in your client companies could run multiple applications you produce for them in Alpha Five v9 PLATINUM).

If you have 5 customers with a 2 users app - ie 10 seats then your cost per seat would be $60

If you have 25 customers with 4 user apps ie 100 seats then your cost per seat would $35

Then it comes down to the following - if you cannot pass on the cost of $35 -$60 per seat on to your customer or build it into your price, then Alpha Five v9 may not be for you.

milesjg
03-21-2008, 07:55 PM
Wow oh wow wow. "then Alpha 5 may not be for you." Thats a first. Coming from the CEO no less.

Raymond Lyons
03-21-2008, 08:13 PM
Richard,

This is killing me. The OEM model, for me, is totally irrelevant.

Under the regular runtime pricing I am looking at a minimum of $2,697 for V9 if I assume what is happening for me right now (which is very little!). Of course I would normally pass most of this on to my clients IF they agree. However, in their current depressed economic circumstances (mortgage industry) they are NOT going to do it. So I guess I have to stick with V8 just when A5 is getting to the point where I could rave about it. To be honest, I am seriously thinking of throwing in the towel and doing something else. Oh well. Good luck.

Ray

trackmanpete
03-21-2008, 08:31 PM
If you have 5 customers with a 2 users app - ie 10 seats then your cost per seat would be $60

If you have 25 customers with 4 user apps ie 100 seats then your cost per seat would $35

Then it comes down to the following - if you cannot pass on the cost of $35 -$60 per seat on to your customer or build it into your price, then Alpha Five v9 may not be for you.

Richard and Selwyn:
If I am to understand your price structure, which really hasn't been presented in a clear concise fashion, in my opinion, then I think your example is misleading.

If I were to create an application that is limited in sales, where I sell it to 10 different people at 10 different colleges, I would have to purchase 10 runtime licenses at $100 each, thus starting off with having to charge over $100 before I make a penny for all my hours in designing the application. If I work on the project for at least 100 hours at $20 per hour I would have to charge $2100 for the application. They can buy a competitive app for less than $100 (one that uses the Access runtime engine (provided for free).

That is a huge price to pay when many software products sell in the range of $49-$79, including some major ones like Quicken and limited ones like a Training Log I bought for $39 that is quite sophisticated.

Now, I could stay with Verison 8 as you indicate, since I have no interest in SQL or Web design, but your company has made a drastic move away from the past pattern of updating key items that were not working well and adding some new things and then charging a little more ($99 to $149). I have been getting about two ads a week from your headquarters for the past 2.5 years.

This is a major change in operations and certainly adversly affects the little mom and pop operations (of which I am one). If you truly are committed to this new route, at least finish the job with Version 8 so that the browse works correctly.

Thanks for understanding.

milesjg
03-21-2008, 10:01 PM
For your college apps you would need the oem runtime. A one time fee (599)for as many apps as you wish to sell/distribute. No network,SQL or the stuff that has caused a firestorm here. The OEM is for the small developer/mom-pop scenerio. True its more expensive and you get less than the V8 runtime scenerio but it is you buy one runtime and sell as many as you want. Onetime price for the runtime.

trackmanpete
03-21-2008, 10:41 PM
Yes, but for my big time sale of 10 apps, I would have to spend $1000 now (alpha v9 and OEM runtime) instead of $375 for the initial investment of the Alpha program and one 3 person runtime app (on top of the v7 I initially bought). I know that oil prices have caused quite a bit of inflationary pressure....:(

My point being that the new pricing is forcing the small time person out of the Alpha's marketplace. Am I willing to share in my wealth with Alpha if I hit it big? I would be less inclined to argue if I sold to every college with a sports team in the country, but I don't think that will happen. My guess of 10 is probably on the mark.

Some one else mentioned that a move over to the Web might be a possibility and alleviate the need for lots of runtime programs. However, paying $49 a month to another company to have a couple of people look at your website and it's fancy database manipulations doesn't strike me as being too appealing either.

Oh well, so we finally get a program that works as advertised and then what.....:)

Richard Rabins
03-21-2008, 11:39 PM
Pete - if i am understanding you correctly - when you state "I would have to spend $1000 now (alpha v9 and OEM runtime)" you are building an app which can be distributed on an unlimited basis through the OEM Run Engine.

The problem appears to be that you dont know how many you will sell till you actually start marketing. So the question is why do have to buy Alpha Five v9 Platinum and the OEM runengine at the same time? Why not buy the Alpha Five v9 Platinum product for $299 initially, build the app or a prototype and then show it off to potential customers to gauge market demand.

One or two outcomes will be the case.

A) there is insufficient market demand so you do not proceed with getting the OEM license

B) there is sufficient market demand which justifies you proceeding with getting the $599 OEM Run Engine at that point in time

Just a thougth.

trackmanpete
03-22-2008, 01:09 AM
I appreciate your kind words. I am not adverse to your way of thinking, but with the big jump in price, I am forced to think twice before moving ahead, especially with my wife looking over my shoulder...:D

I have looked at other products to gauge their pricing and your company is not out of bounds, except for bigtime Access, but I am too old to play with them again, I think.

I just don't want to move up again (third time) and then find out in 18 months you have another super upgrade that I just need to have...

In three years I get my pension and then I get to play more freely...

I wish the approach to this issue would have been a bit clearer and cleaner, as it seems to be a bit confusing, don't you think? At least it seems so from all the posts.

I would love to continue supporting you, Selwyn and your company, as I find it refreshing as to how well all of you approach your product and support it. I am just not sure I can afford to do it and then do it again in 18 months.

It is similar to the changeover in the TV market. I saw nothing wrong with my $199 20 inch flat screen Sony. Now I have to shell out $1000 for a digital tv if I want to watch tv.

I have 12 days left with Version 9 and will continue playing with it. Maybe the tax rebate George is promising us will come along and I can buy the next version.

Please keep up the good work, but maybe you can get someone from the liberal arts side of the ledger to explain the new pricing mechanism. You know how engineering minds are logical, but not the best at communicating...;)

Best wishes and success with Version 9.

Richard Rabins
03-22-2008, 01:30 AM
Pete - I appreciate your kind words

take a look at this explanation below.

Also if you would like me to call you this weekend - just email me at richard@alphasoftware.com and rrabins30@gmail.com and i will call you back to go over the pricing for run engines

--------------
When you cut to the chase there are two scenarios

Desktop Applications


A) you are building single user applications that dont need SQL connectivity, then the OEM Run Engine is the way to go and it provides for unlimited distribution of applications for $599

B) you are building multi-user applications or applications where you do need SQL connectivity then, the Regular Run Engine is the way to go. In this scenario the cost per seat for the application(s) that you build is

$60 per seat if bought as part of a 10 pack
$50 per seat if bought as part of a 20 pack
$40 per seat if bought as part of a 50 pack
$34 per seat if bought as part of a 100 pack

Web applications

If you are building web apps - we continue to have an unlimited number of users per server model. If you couple this with the new AJAX capabilites (and other web application building enhancements, it makes Alpha Five V9 PLATINUM a potent and very cost effective tool.

Peter.Greulich
03-22-2008, 11:20 AM
It is similar to the changeover in the TV market. I saw nothing wrong with my $199 20 inch flat screen Sony. Now I have to shell out $1000 for a digital tv if I want to watch tv.

No. You will just have to buy a converter box ($30-$40).

jkletrovets
03-22-2008, 11:44 AM
Hi Richard


B) you are building multi-user applications or applications where you do need SQL connectivity then, the Regular Run Engine is the way to go. In this scenario the cost per seat for the application(s) that you build is

$60 per seat if bought as part of a 10 pack
$50 per seat if bought as part of a 20 pack
$40 per seat if bought as part of a 50 pack
$34 per seat if bought as part of a 100 pack

Just sitting here thinking about this current Run Engine plan that has been laid out. In real world implementation, let's say I wanted to buy a 100 pack to optimize costs for my clients. How would I as a developer roll this out so that I want to allocate 10 of my 100 to be for client A, 20 for client B, etc.? Do I get 100 license codes?

I would like to throw a vote in for concurrent user pricing instead of per seat as some others have also indicated. As many have said, it is not uncommon to have the app on 30 computers but at any one time only 20 people can access the app. I have one client whose building is 75000 square feet. It sure makes it nice for someone to get on any pc in the whole building instead of having to walk 300 yards to their desk.


I am sure the last day or so has been tough for you and I hope your business situation allows you the flexibility to alter some of these policies if you choose to do so. As I mentioned in another post, none of us know Alpha's business situation and what you need to do price/qty wise to have a successful business. I am sure no one here wants Alpha to lose money - no business can survive doing so. You have a great product. I hope some of these Run Engine issues can be worked out so everyone can be happy.

Regards,

Jeff

Keith Hubert
03-22-2008, 01:28 PM
Richard said

"The problem appears to be that you dont know how many you will sell till you actually start marketing.
So the question is why do have to buy Alpha Five v9 Platinum and the OEM runengine at the same time?
Why not buy the Alpha Five v9 Platinum product for $299 initially, build the app or a prototype and then show it off to potential customers to gauge market demand."

I ask, how do you send a demo out without an OEM runtime?

I agree that different size runtimes could be bought and re-used with a number of clients, that was how it was sold to us developers. Having to buy a new runtime for multi users does make sense.

I have developed a small application that I have no idea how well it will sell. Possibly for no more than $100 each. For me to lay out $600 for the OEM before I sell a single copy will be a hard pill to swallow. Ok, so I might sell 6 copies and get my money back, but I've still layed out for V9. I would be happy at $200 for the OEM, at least I would feal I had a fighting chance of making a profit.

As I understand it the Single seat License does not need online activation, does that mean the same license key will allow the same runtime to be used on multiple single machine? If that is true them the OEM idea is blown out of the water.

Richard Rabins
03-22-2008, 01:57 PM
Hi Richard



Just sitting here thinking about this current Run Engine plan that has been laid out. In real world implementation, let's say I wanted to buy a 100 pack to optimize costs for my clients. How would I as a developer roll this out so that I want to allocate 10 of my 100 to be for client A, 20 for client B, etc.?

you can do exactly that Jeff
Do I get 100 license codes?

I would like to throw a vote in for concurrent user pricing instead of per seat as some others have also indicated. As many have said, it is not uncommon to have the app on 30 computers but at any one time only 20 people can access the app. I have one client whose building is 75000 square feet. It sure makes it nice for someone to get on any pc in the whole building instead of having to walk 300 yards to their desk.

I believe we have a solution for this scenario - I will be checking in with the development team early in the week re this - thanks Jeff


I am sure the last day or so has been tough for you and I hope your business situation allows you the flexibility to alter some of these policies if you choose to do so. As I mentioned in another post, none of us know Alpha's business situation and what you need to do price/qty wise to have a successful business. I am sure no one here wants Alpha to lose money - no business can survive doing so. You have a great product. I hope some of these Run Engine issues can be worked out so everyone can be happy.

Regards,

Jeff

russ Boehle
03-22-2008, 03:56 PM
Option C) Not mentioned - you are building multi-user applications or applications where you do NOT need SQL connectivity... I assume there are still people using the DBF format. I have been following the thread as it's of interest. I use multiuser, dbf. Not SQL at this point. One option that might be looked at is a different pricing schedule for DBF multiuser than SQL multiuser. Or..maybe have the runtime work as previous for DBF and change the licensing for SQL.

Russ

NoeticCC
03-22-2008, 05:34 PM
Option C) Not mentioned - you are building multi-user applications or applications where you do NOT need SQL connectivity... I assume there are still people using the DBF format. I have been following the thread as it's of interest. I use multiuser, dbf. Not SQL at this point. One option that might be looked at is a different pricing schedule for DBF multiuser than SQL multiuser. Or..maybe have the runtime work as previous for DBF and change the licensing for SQL.

Russ

I have just suggested something similar in another thread...

I can COMPLETELY understand why the concurrent user limited RTs are not an option with SQL-enabled apps, because the lack of a shared set of DBF tables (in a fully client-server setup) makes this impossible to control. Also, the export and import functionality for connection strings etc, and being able to copy forms across between DBF and active link tables, makes it impossible for Alpha to limit the amount of concurrent RT users...

My suggestion would be to include - at no extra cost, and without needing to install anything on your machine - a "neutered" RT engine in A5 Platinum, which allows you to build single user executables using only DBF files, no SQL, no shadow database options etc... and whatever other limits are necessary to make this possible. This could be used for compiling demo versions of your apps for example, possibly with the option of a time limit built into the install maker (one can dream, right?)..., with active and passive link tables included as DBF files... Smaller, single user charity projects could also be done on this basis without needing any paid for RTs either...

The RT pricing for the full SQL enabled client-server RTs can stay the same, that does make sense, but there should, just like there used to be in previous versions, be something akin to the V8 non-Enterprise, non-PLUS RTs, concurrent-user limited for creating multi-user apps using DBF files only, but able to use things like super controls, export to Excel and so on...

Just my $0.02.... or $20... (Have nothing better to do than philosophise on this as our company is on holidays until Tuesday and typical delays in communication mean I probably won't get the V9 WAS until I get back from my holidays in early April now...)

drgarytraub
03-22-2008, 06:56 PM
"Web applications

If you are building web apps - we continue to have an unlimited number of users per server model. If you couple this with the new AJAX capabilites (and other web application building enhancements, it makes Alpha Five V9 PLATINUM a potent and very cost effective tool."



There is obviously a "trust" issue going on here Richard. I think people are feeling that they have shown tremendous loyalty over the years, which has enabled Alpha Software to grow. Developers have invested significant money and huge amounts of time, and are now feeling that unless they upgrade to the new v9 for LOTS of money, they may be left in the dust with little support of v8 and earlier versions.

You say that with web apps you get around the user limitation. But given the change in pricing model you have just released, I wonder if I can "trust" that you will not change that for the WAS at some time in the future. So should I continue to invest huge amounts of time and money in developing the WAS?

Needless to say, the price structure for v9 concerns me as well!!

Gary

davidv43
03-22-2008, 07:16 PM
Richard,

seems like there is a workable model which I saw one time in a program called Biblioscape. That model required installation of the runtime on a network server. The app ran directly on the server and thus could limit how many concurrent users it serviced. The advantage is that the user doesn't have to install anything on his computer, the model would work even in a thin client situation, and Alpha could certainly protect their investment. I dont know how complicated this would be to write, but seems like a "right" solution.

Dave Volgas, MD

neil_albala
03-29-2008, 03:10 PM
I was going to upgrade, but I see it's not time yet.

neil_albala
03-29-2008, 03:46 PM
Let me start a new thread.

NoeticCC
03-29-2008, 03:49 PM
Let me start a new thread.

Don't bother! THis is an "old" thread, just take a look at the new licensing and stop fretting about an outdated description!!!!

The new OEM RT Engine DOES allow active link tables but is priced on a case by case basis (cos someone marketing huge Enterprise apps with Oracle or SQL Server back ends probably should pay a bit more than someone who has a small business app they want to convert to use mySQL etc!), the equivalent to what is described in THIS thread is now just $399 and at the moment when you buy A5V9 developer copy you get the single user re-usable RT for just an extra $100...

https://www.alphasoftware.com/shop/alphafive/platinum/

And here's for the first time it seems a COMPREHENSIVE explanation of the different RT options, with each case catered for and the rules made quite simple to understand (as opposed to the previous short explanation and vague wording): https://www.alphasoftware.com/shop/alphafive/platinum/run_engines.asp