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Richard Rabins
03-28-2008, 03:18 PM
https://www.alphasoftware.com/shop/alphafive/platinum/run_engines.asp

Full details including pricing are at http://www.imakenews.com/alphasoftware/index000251621.cfm

Tbaker
03-28-2008, 03:22 PM
Richard:

Great work - congratulations to you and the Alpha team.

Tom Baker

Richard Rabins
03-28-2008, 03:34 PM
Thanks Tom:

We have worked hard on this:)

NoeticCC
03-28-2008, 03:40 PM
Thanks Tom:

We have worked hard on this:)

And on the documentation, well done!!!! Go grab those easter eggs and chocolates you lot must no doubt have missed by spending all of last weekend trying to sort out our varied "complaints" :)

DSG
03-28-2008, 03:58 PM
Despite all the "kudus" (Wits grads notwithstanding, Richard) on the newly revised pricing for Runtimes, I remain confused.

Here is my scenario:

I wish to give my client a one off of the market research information I have provided for him so that he can manipulate it to his heart's content with all the reports, forms, and queries that I have developed. I assume this is a custom application. He does not need access to SQL tables (everything in dbf format).

Based on this link http://www.alphasoftware.com/shop/alphafive/platinum/
the one user runtime cost is $399, the same price as a FULL VERSION of a5v9 for a new user as shown here: https://www.alphasoftware.com/shop/alphafive/platinum/newuser

Why in this instance would anyone buy the runtime when you can get the "full monty" for the same price?

What am I missing?

Thanks in advance for any clarification.

Duncan

smrogers
03-28-2008, 04:11 PM
Richard, I'm a little confused regarding the "Packaged" application distribution. It is my understanding that a developer can create an unlimited number of "packaged" applications that can be distributed to as many company's/customers as they want, as long as the application is considered a "packaged" application. My question is two-fold.... When developing an application, is there something that has to be done within Alpha during the development phase, that determines that the application is "packaged" vs. "Custom"? And, what is the "user account unlock code"? Is this code given to all recipients of the packaged application, and if so, does everyone get the same code?

I'm excited about the opportunity to purchase the new version, however my firm requires a little more info regarding the above issues. Thanks!

EDIT: I've noticed several other posts since I started typing mine... and while I'm sure you all worked hard at clearing any ambiguity regarding this new pricing, some questions still linger/need to be resolved. Any chance of possibly editing the description to include more information? Thanks.

Richard Rabins
03-28-2008, 04:29 PM
Richard, I'm a little confused regarding the "Packaged" application distribution. It is my understanding that a developer can create an unlimited number of "packaged" applications that can be distributed to as many company's/customers as they want, as long as the application is considered a "packaged" application.

My question is two-fold.... When developing an application, is there something that has to be done within Alpha during the development phase, that determines that the application is "packaged" vs. "Custom"?

no there is not

And, what is the "user account unlock code"? Is this code given to all recipients of the packaged application, YES and if so, does everyone get the same code ? YES

for further clarification the document explains

When you purchase the Alpha Five Runtime, you are issued with a "user count unlock code." The sole purpose of this code is to "unlock" the user count on the Runtime to the concurrent number of users you licensed when you purchased your Runtime license. The "user count unlock code" provides you with new flexibility, because it gives you the ability to add runtimes together to increase your concurrent user count. The "user count unlock code" is in turn provided by you to all your customers. You have complete control over the appearance of the dialog that prompts the user for the "user count unlock code." This dialog box is only displayed once - the first time the user runs your application.


I'm excited about the opportunity to purchase the new version, however my firm requires a little more info regarding the above issues. Thanks!

hopefully this helps -- - if you have any other questions you can also email me at richard@alphasoftware.com or sales@alphasoftware.com

EDIT: I've noticed several other posts since I started typing mine... and while I'm sure you all worked hard at clearing any ambiguity regarding this new pricing, some questions still linger/need to be resolved. Any chance of possibly editing the description to include more information? Thanks.

Richard Rabins
03-28-2008, 04:38 PM
Despite all the "kudus" (Wits grads notwithstanding, Richard) on the newly revised pricing for Runtimes, I remain confused.

Here is my scenario:

I wish to give my client a one off of the market research information I have provided for him so that he can manipulate it to his heart's content with all the reports, forms, and queries that I have developed. I assume this is a custom application. He does not need access to SQL tables (everything in dbf format).

Based on this link http://www.alphasoftware.com/shop/alphafive/platinum/
the one user runtime cost is $399, the same price as a FULL VERSION of a5v9 for a new user as shown here: https://www.alphasoftware.com/shop/alphafive/platinum/newuser

Why in this instance would anyone buy the runtime when you can get the "full monty" for the same price?

What am I missing?

Thanks in advance for any clarification.

Duncan

The RunTime allows for additinional distribution rights as explained in https://www.alphasoftware.com/shop/alphafive/platinum/run_engines.asp

The basic idea here is that the 1 user runtime lets a person create single user "packaged" applications (with no active links) and distribute it/them freely to as many people as they like or could be used to create a 1 user demo of a multi-user "packaged" application for free broad distribution

The "full monty" as you call it:) is a license for the full Alpha Five that is meant to license one user

So they are actually different beasts

DSG
03-28-2008, 04:51 PM
Richard;
It's not for nothing that my high school Physics teacher named me "Mini Brain" ...
but I think I understand the differences between the full version and what you can do with the runtime (I know they are different beasts, but you charge the same!). So with all due respect, I don't think you answered my question. In my example, according to the licence, for a one off copy my client (and probably only one person would ever use it!) would require a Runtime licence (@ $399). He can buy (or I can purchase for him) a full (not an upgrade, but priced as a New User!) version of A5v9 also for $399.

Again, what am I missing?

Thanks,
Duncan

turbojack
03-28-2008, 05:03 PM
I am not going to jump on the bandwagon.

At this time I like the drill down reports and the fixed browse (which I feel the browse should have been fixed in V8, but have lived with it) Those are the only 2 features I feel I need at this time. For me to upgrade those 2 features with 1 full, plus 10 user runtime will cost me $1,098.00. I can not justify the upgrade cost so I will be staying with V8 at this time. I do not remember what I paid for V8 upgrade but I do not think it was anything close to that.

Oh, Oh
May have spoke too soon, I reading down further there are bundle packages that are way cheaper. Should have done more reading before posting.

Richard Rabins
03-28-2008, 05:09 PM
Richard;
It's not for nothing that my high school Physics teacher named me "Mini Brain" ...
but I think I understand the differences between the full version and what you can do with the runtime (I know they are different beasts, but you charge the same!). So with all due respect, I don't think you answered my question. In my example, according to the licence, for a one off copy my client (and probably only one person would ever use it!) would require a Runtime licence (@ $399). He can buy (or I can purchase for him) a full (not an upgrade, but priced as a New User!) version of A5v9 also for $399.

Again, what am I missing?

Thanks,
Duncan

Either will work - In your case - price is not the issue , but rather what capability you want your customer to have.

The full version is the full development version which of course can run (and modify your application).

The Runtime (and Run Engine) allows developers to protect their intellectual property by preventing users from seeing the source code to scripts and functions. Alpha Five also gives an extra level of protection by allowing developers to compile scripts and functions.

NoeticCC
03-28-2008, 05:12 PM
Richard;
It's not for nothing that my high school Physics teacher named me "Mini Brain" ...
but I think I understand the differences between the full version and what you can do with the runtime (I know they are different beasts, but you charge the same!). So with all due respect, I don't think you answered my question. In my example, according to the licence, for a one off copy my client (and probably only one person would ever use it!) would require a Runtime licence (@ $399). He can buy (or I can purchase for him) a full (not an upgrade, but priced as a New User!) version of A5v9 also for $399.

Or get the full version AND a 1 user "unlimited" RT for $399.... I know what I'd choose! ;)

I guess the whole point is that if you are a developer who wants to be able to create demo versions of your products, in order to allow that you just get the $399 bundle so you can get a copy of A5V9 and a 1 user RT included.

turbojack
03-28-2008, 05:25 PM
I know Alpha says to call if you have more seats then users. Why the difference between the Seat (computer) & User. Why not just use users for both runtime and run engine?

DSG
03-28-2008, 05:29 PM
"In your case - price is not the issue , but rather what capability you want your customer to have."

Well, actually PRICE IS THE ISSUE. I don't need to hide source code etc. In this case the "custom application" is not the product the client is buying. The product is the data I have created for him. Electronic accessibility and manipulation is an added benefit. Today this is provided through MS Excel (which everyone has and knows how to use). Because I use Alpha to create, edit, and process the data (which includes myriad Alpha queries, operations, and reports) providing a "copy" to my client would be of some benefit. However, not $399 per "one off" of benefit. It remains much better "value" in Excel.

Too bad!

Duncan

DaveM
03-28-2008, 05:31 PM
Richard,

Complements and a well done! You and your team really listen very well and you structured it nicely so evryone can figure out what they need and get only what they need at the most affordable price with the flexibilty to add later. My hat is off.

I will put my money where my mouth is and make a purchase within 72 hours for v9. Yes I needed it and wanted so much to bring my biggest app up to v9. I have been improving it since about '94.

I have never seen a compny of any kind listen so well and make the effort to understand their customers concerns. It is a pleasure to be a very small part of such a big and wonderful community as the alpha family of users.

Richard Rabins
03-28-2008, 05:45 PM
Duncan - you indicated in an earlier post

I wish to give my client a one off of the market research information I have provided for him so that he can manipulate it to his heart's content with all the reports, forms, and queries that I have developed

If I understand this correctly - the DATA you have created is of value and the ability for your client to manipulate the data "to his heart's content with all the reports, forms, and queries that I have developed" is of value.

When you say that the cost of the 1 user runtime ($399) is high in your case for the value that it offers your client over Excel, I accept your judgement (since only you are privvy to the specific facts.) However I dont know if noticed that under the promo that we are running - there is a marginal cost of only $100 for 1 user runtime when purchased as part of the Alpha Five v9 platinum+ 1 User runtime bundle which costs a total of $399 which represents a premium of only $100 over Alpha v9 platinum by itself which is $299.

Btw we have intentionally created this bundle to offer a truly compelling bundle during this promotion

I hope this is useful

Richard Rabins
03-28-2008, 05:58 PM
Richard,

Complements and a well done! You and your team really listen very well and you structured it nicely so evryone can figure out what they need and get only what they need at the most affordable price with the flexibilty to add later. My hat is off.

I will put my money where my mouth is and make a purchase within 72 hours for v9. Yes I needed it and wanted so much to bring my biggest app up to v9. I have been improving it since about '94.

I have never seen a compny of any kind listen so well and make the effort to understand their customers concerns. It is a pleasure to be a very small part of such a big and wonderful community as the alpha family of users.

Thank you Dave for your very kind comments. As I have said over the last few days, we recognize that Alpha Five is more than just a product, it is a community of some very smart, creative, dedicated people who have a vision for products that they want to build, clients they want to serve and companies that they want to make more successful.


Thank you.

DSG
03-28-2008, 06:07 PM
However I dont know if noticed that under the promo that we are running - there is a marginal cost of only $100 for 1 user runtime when purchased as part of the Alpha Five v9 platinum+ 1 User runtime bundle which costs a total of $399 which represents a premium of only $100 over Alpha v9 platinum by itself which is $299.

Btw we have intentionally created this bundle to offer a truly compelling bundle during this promotion

I hope this is useful[/QUOTE]

Yes, I saw that ... hence back to my original post about being "confused". How can I use this "bundle" (with the runtime), since by the terms of the runtime licence, everytime I create a "custom app" (in this case accessibilty for my client to access the data) I must have him buy a licence for $399. Are you saying that my purchase of the runtime (for $100) gives me the right to let my client buy a runtime for $399 instead of his buying the full version (also for $399) which he could use to access the data anyway?

One of us is still missing something here.

TedBerry
03-28-2008, 06:13 PM
Again the Alpha team has shown why I consider them to be AWESOME!
Great company, great products, great support.

I have found a home with Alpha. I bought it, am using it, and making
money with it. What more can you ask for?


Ted Berry
TLBerry Enterprises

Richard Rabins
03-28-2008, 06:15 PM
Duncan - just email me with your phone number and we should be able to clear up any confusion.

Thanks
richard@alphasoftware.com

DSG
03-28-2008, 06:16 PM
... will do

Thanks

sicomputerguy
03-28-2008, 08:08 PM
Not to add more confusion to the runtime issue, but I have a question.

Can an application be developed where some people need to have the sql active links and others don't?

Then could they buy a 3 seat runtime w/active links and a 10 user runtime w/o active links and use it on the same app and network?

The reason I ask is I have an application that I would like to update a security SQL database for the badging stations but the other users have no need to have active links for this purpose and are just using dbf data.

NoeticCC
03-28-2008, 08:15 PM
Not to add more confusion to the runtime issue, but I have a question.

Can an application be developed where some people need to have the sql active links and others don't?

Then could they buy a 3 seat runtime w/active links and a 10 user runtime w/o active links and use it on the same app and network?

The reason I ask is I have an application that I would like to update a security SQL database for the badging stations but the other users have no need to have active links for this purpose and are just using dbf data.

Sure, as far as I'm aware the per seat RT Engines work completely independently from any other installations of an application, basically you could have one build of the app with active link tables, but users in a different group get a passive link version of the same tables.... Both can access the same SQL database, but only one group/type can edit that data directly through forms etc.

Richard Rabins
03-28-2008, 08:52 PM
yes, that will be fine.

the people who are running the runtime won't be able to open the active-link tables, but the people who are using the run engine will be able to open the active-link tables.

sicomputerguy
03-28-2008, 09:16 PM
Richard,

That is awesome.

Thanks,
Pat

PS. I placed my order for the upgrade today.

Garry Flanigan
03-29-2008, 05:23 AM
I have been following this whole topic of licencing and must say that I think Alpha has now put a very good solution in place.
A developer can now offer a range of solutions and so compete in any market.
Whilst I have not done a whole lot with Platinum, my initial impressions are that the new functionality is very exciting as it enables developers to do things that will surprise many clients.
Well done to everyone at Alpha.
Garry

seaken64
03-29-2008, 12:23 PM
However I dont know if noticed that under the promo that we are running - there is a marginal cost of only $100 for 1 user runtime when purchased as part of the Alpha Five v9 platinum+ 1 User runtime bundle which costs a total of $399 which represents a premium of only $100 over Alpha v9 platinum by itself which is $299.

Btw we have intentionally created this bundle to offer a truly compelling bundle during this promotion

I hope this is useful


Yes, I saw that ... hence back to my original post about being "confused". How can I use this "bundle" (with the runtime), since by the terms of the runtime licence, everytime I create a "custom app" (in this case accessibilty for my client to access the data) I must have him buy a licence for $399. Are you saying that my purchase of the runtime (for $100) gives me the right to let my client buy a runtime for $399 instead of his buying the full version (also for $399) which he could use to access the data anyway?

One of us is still missing something here.

Why doesn't your client just buy the full program? After that the "data" you send him can be accessed and manipulated as you see fit. Or, do you not want them to have that full access? Do you want to restrict them by way of the runtime?

Sean

DSG
03-29-2008, 01:08 PM
Sean;
Well, that was sort of my point ... the client would be "better off" buying the full programme, even though it would be way beyond his needs. But that is rather moot, as the reality is his company would not let him buy A5 (at least not let him load it on his PC). The client company's policy is for any software to be loaded on a PC must be "approved". So that means the data I provide him must be in MS Access or more likely in MS Excel (which is what I currently deliver). My thought had been to put a Runtime on a U3 USB thumb drive, so it would never be "installed" on his PC, but at $399 for each time, it doesn't make financial sense.

I have since spoken with Richard, explained this in more detail, and he's putting his thinking cap on.

NoeticCC
03-29-2008, 01:16 PM
Yes, I saw that ... hence back to my original post about being "confused". How can I use this "bundle" (with the runtime), since by the terms of the runtime licence, everytime I create a "custom app" (in this case accessibilty for my client to access the data) I must have him buy a licence for $399.

If your client only needs one seat they'd get a per seat RT engine surely?

They'd only need the $399 single user RT license if many users had to access the same app from different workstations, just only one user at a time.

Or for a developer selling single user apps to multiple organisations.

Tom Cone Jr
03-29-2008, 01:31 PM
Andrea, I don't know if this is what they had in mind, but if you don't buy a runtime or run engine license it's difficult to test your multi-user application on your own network, unless you buy multiple licenses for the full version of course.

-- tom

NoeticCC
03-29-2008, 01:45 PM
Andrea, I don't know if this is what they had in mind, but if you don't buy a runtime or run engine license it's difficult to test your multi-user application on your own network, unless you buy multiple licenses for the full version of course.

-- tom
True, but then that's you as the developer, and with the special offer that's easily achieved.

I ended up getting one anyway, since we need the second developer copy and the single old style RT allows me to give reporting - SQL reports, won't even need passive link tables for now - tools using the new report features, to some of our individual users right now (their needs are very different from each other, and really there's no need for them to wait until I have the specs for the full app for which we will need a set of full RT engines or per site licenses eventually, when this allows me to get their needs met straight away)

Which RT type a client needs for a custom app depends greatly on their requirements.

For custom jobs for single users where one client just wants the reporting capabilities, an app with a single RT engine license for $99 does the trick, if you want to brand your app and limit his or her access to the data. If you want to give them complete access and branding doesn't matter, then a full copy of A5 is the way to go.

Only if they want several users, depending on their needs, a single or multiple user RT, if no Active Link tables are used, becomes more viable. (For two or three, per seat RT engines are cheaper, but then they can't install the app on as many machines as they like, or install a copy on their home PC etc.)

Jim Coltz
03-29-2008, 06:55 PM
Andrea, I don't know if this is what they had in mind, but if you don't buy a runtime or run engine license it's difficult to test your multi-user application on your own network, unless you buy multiple licenses for the full version of course.

-- tom
Tom, you bring up a good point. If, for instance, I need to develop an active linked table app and test it out in a network environment it looks like with the current run engine license scheme I would need to invest in my own run engine license(s) or as you say additional full licenses. For someone that is developing on a home network for deployment in their own business this extra cost hurts.

This is another reason I have yet to upgrade to V9. I'm still trying to decide whether or not to convert over to a SQL backend for the brunt of the work. The SQL database engines have an awful lot of good things going for them over the dbf format I'm using now. But to make the switch is going to take some effort. I would need to roll this out slowly by switching over the dbf tables one at a time, and after testing at home, deploy it at the office where the real debug invariably takes place.

gkeramidas
03-29-2008, 08:02 PM
i'm a little confused.

let's say i want to build a document management app for a client. let's say they have 10 users.

1. what would i purchase if i wanted to create a web based app so all 10 could access it?

2. what would i buy if i just want to store the db on the server and let the 10 users access it?

NoeticCC
03-29-2008, 08:18 PM
i'm a little confused.

let's say i want to build a document management app for a client. let's say they have 10 users.

1. what would i purchase if i wanted to create a web based app so all 10 could access it?
All you need is the Alpha 5 WAS (and a developer edition of Alpha 5)


2. what would i buy if i just want to store the db on the server and let the 10 users access it?

For a DBF database, a RT for however many CONSECUTIVE users you need...

For an SQL database, a 10 user RT...

gkeramidas
03-29-2008, 08:25 PM
it wouldn't be sql and i'm not sure how many concurrent. maybe only 1 or 2, but i'd want all 10 to be able to have access.

NoeticCC
03-29-2008, 08:56 PM
Tom, you bring up a good point. If, for instance, I need to develop an active linked table app and test it out in a network environment it looks like with the current run engine license scheme I would need to invest in my own run engine license(s) or as you say additional full licenses.

If the objective is just to test the active link table (and whether the SQL link/AlphaDAO link or ODBC driver is set up right) then I'm sure a trial copy of A5 would do just fine?

NoeticCC
03-29-2008, 09:03 PM
it wouldn't be sql and i'm not sure how many concurrent. maybe only 1 or 2, but i'd want all 10 to be able to have access.

With only 1 concurrent, but up to 10 different clients, I'd say the $399 1 user RT or $499 3 (concurrent) user RT would be the most suitable...

But do you really NEED the V9 functionality for this particular project? If yes then fair enough, but upgrading to V9 now won't stop you from using any existing V8 developer licenses or V8 runtimes...

gkeramidas
03-29-2008, 09:20 PM
yes, andrea. i think my client wants to utilize the new supercontrol to view pdfs on a form.

thanks.

NoeticCC
03-29-2008, 09:26 PM
yes, andrea. i think my client wants to utilize the new supercontrol to view pdfs on a form.

thanks.
In that case the $499 3 user RT seems like it does the trick.. IF you really need there to be 10 or so potential users, with up to 3 consecutive ones... Otherwise the $249 3 seat license would do the trick...

trackmanpete
03-29-2008, 09:30 PM
Are you working for Alpha on the side??;)

MikeC
03-29-2008, 09:35 PM
Gary,
You can do that now with version 8 utilizing an activeX object.

forskare
04-14-2008, 12:47 PM
Sean;
Well, that was sort of my point ... the client would be "better off" buying the full programme, even though it would be way beyond his needs. But that is rather moot, as the reality is his company would not let him buy A5 (at least not let him load it on his PC). The client company's policy is for any software to be loaded on a PC must be "approved". So that means the data I provide him must be in MS Access or more likely in MS Excel (which is what I currently deliver). My thought had been to put a Runtime on a U3 USB thumb drive, so it would never be "installed" on his PC, but at $399 for each time, it doesn't make financial sense.

I have since spoken with Richard, explained this in more detail, and he's putting his thinking cap on.

Did you get a reply from Richard? Putting A5v9 Pro and/or the RT on a U3 will make my life a lot easier.

kenn

DSG
04-14-2008, 06:17 PM
Hi Kenn;

You might be interested to know that my whole series of questions on this was actually spurred by YOUR comment a while back on another thread explaining how you use the RT on a U3 USB. I thought this was fantastic, and given my (then) understanding of RT pricing, this would allow me to overcome client issues and use A5 to deliver my information to my clients (if I ever mastered A5 effectively ... unfortunately, it's still a long way off).

Richard was very understanding of my need i.e. A5 is not the PRODUCT being delivered like in a traditional application, really largely the VEHICLE for the product (which is customized data), instead of Excel or Access for example. Thus my need did not really fit the "custom" or "package" definitions as they "currently" exist.

Although I am several months away from being able to implement such a solution, I felt confident that Richard was very amenable to "tailor" or "tweak" the policies/pricing to fit my unique situation.

I'm not sure if this helps ... but THANK YOU for giving me the initial impetus!

Duncan

forskare
04-14-2008, 10:21 PM
Hi Kenn;

You might be interested to know that my whole series of questions on this was actually spurred by YOUR comment a while back on another thread explaining how you use the RT on a U3 USB. I thought this was fantastic, and given my (then) understanding of RT pricing, this would allow me to overcome client issues and use A5 to deliver my information to my clients (if I ever mastered A5 effectively ... unfortunately, it's still a long way off).

Richard was very understanding of my need i.e. A5 is not the PRODUCT being delivered like in a traditional application, really largely the VEHICLE for the product (which is customized data), instead of Excel or Access for example. Thus my need did not really fit the "custom" or "package" definitions as they "currently" exist.

Although I am several months away from being able to implement such a solution, I felt confident that Richard was very amenable to "tailor" or "tweak" the policies/pricing to fit my unique situation.

I'm not sure if this helps ... but THANK YOU for giving me the initial impetus!

Duncan
Hi Duncan,

It's encouraging to know that what I've said is of value to others. Alpha has set up the runtime so that when it is installed, it writes files to the registry. Because I am not allowed to install RT on any of the 3 computers, the only alternative I have is to install the app and RT on my jump drive. Well, it's really not the only alternative if I want to use Access. That gets tempting at times because the Rt for Access is free. But then the puters have MS Office with Access so their RT isn't needed. It boils down to being able to install RT on my jump drive or use Access.

Thanks for your response.

kenn