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Candidate next update is now available VS Alpha Five Version 11 Updates = conundrum

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  • #46
    Re: Candidate next update is now available VS Alpha Five Version 11 Updates = conund

    Since we all deal with what is widely known as "Technology", it bears remembering that it has been said that "Technology is stuff that doesn't work yet..." (or some variation). This actually blurs the boundary between "bleeding edge", "release candidate", and "final cut".

    I work in an IT shop and if I gave up after even the first 5 tries at solving something when the user has after 1 (or even .5!), NOTHING would get accomplished. A5 development is no different, it is just that WE are the user now...

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: Candidate next update is now available VS Alpha Five Version 11 Updates = conund

      Originally posted by SNusa View Post
      Case in point: Last winter, as I finally took the plunge to learn a5 "from the inside out" I continuously ran into frustrations that were presumably "transparent non-issues" by all the advanced users at that time. (Either that, or nobody bothered to report in with bugs.)
      I couldn't agree more; I seriously took the plunge with v11 as a beta tester. Even though I had been "playing" with v9 & 10 I discovered quite a few issues that I found were present in earlier versions as well. So my conclusion is that many what Robert calls "advanced users" don't bother to report issues but rather work around them or just don't care about them. To some extent it is understandable, to some other extent it is not.

      Following up on bug reports using email is also very time consuming yet using more sophisticated systems such as Gemini takes time as well.

      My personal experience is that close to every single issue -even including typos- I reported was addressed, usually the day after and for those not (yet) addressed feedback was given.

      Creating/documenting a bug report takes a lot of time & is very difficult. Occasionally I still fail creating a good report. Sometimes you may need to be rather persistent before something becomes real clear for the Alpha developers: communication is difficult. One thing is for sure though: if you can have the Alpha developers repeat your issue it will be solved.
      Frank

      Tell me and I'll forget; show me and I may remember; involve me and I'll understand

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: Candidate next update is now available VS Alpha Five Version 11 Updates = conund

        Originally posted by Clipper87 View Post
        I couldn't agree more; I seriously took the plunge with v11 as a beta tester. Even though I had been "playing" with v9 & 10 I discovered quite a few issues that I found were present in earlier versions as well. So my conclusion is that many what Robert calls "advanced users" don't bother to report issues but rather work around them or just don't care about them. To some extent it is understandable, to some other extent it is not.
        Question to Clipper87:

        Wow,, seeing that you're on the exact same path as I was with v10 last winter, whats the verdict/your take on v11? (Are you still encountering bugs as in previous versions?) ~ I'm very close to installing v11, but have held out thus far. Since I made the commitment to "get it down" on version 10.5, I decided to spend my time solidifying my knowledge as opposed to ending back up in "uncharted territory." (encountering, validating, documenting & submitting bug reports on a new version)


        One GREAT thing about Alpha (which you mentioned) is that when bugs are submitted, they are promptly addressed. I've not seen that anywhere else on the planet. (With a few exceptions of independent developers who take pride in their offerings.) ~ Actually, that may partially explain Alpha's quick resolution of issues: "Pride." And I believe the owners of Alpha (Selwyn & Richard) relentlessly guide Alpha Software in a manner that exemplifies this.

        I've been finding and reporting software bugs for so long (with so many different types of business software) that I no longer call it "beta testing." ~ I refer to it as "guinea-pigging."

        ~I simply no longer have the time, or the desire. It's actually counter-productive and there's no incentive involved either. (Possibly with the one exception of realizing a cleaner product down the road, but definitely no "short term benefits"....)
        Last edited by SNusa; 02-08-2012, 11:09 AM.
        Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
        It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
        RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: Candidate next update is now available VS Alpha Five Version 11 Updates = conund

          Robert,

          I think v11 is the only way to go forward, if you have v10.x solutions for customers you can freeze them and just maintain them but you will find that your customer's needs change as well and I'm only naming mobile as an example. V11 is what you want to have and later on it'll be v12 and so on. Versions to me are like snapshots: the concept remains the same & the product gets better with more features being added all the time. And with the help of many enthusiasts it gets more stable every day. So yes you will still encounter bugs but no don't let that withhold you from plunging into v11!
          Frank

          Tell me and I'll forget; show me and I may remember; involve me and I'll understand

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: Candidate next update is now available VS Alpha Five Version 11 Updates = conund

            Originally posted by Clipper87 View Post
            Robert,

            I think v11 is the only way to go forward, if you have v10.x solutions for customers you can freeze them and just maintain them but you will find that your customer's needs change as well and I'm only naming mobile as an example. V11 is what you want to have and later on it'll be v12 and so on. Versions to me are like snapshots: the concept remains the same & the product gets better with more features being added all the time. And with the help of many enthusiasts it gets more stable every day. So yes you will still encounter bugs but no don't let that withhold you from plunging into v11!
            Have you encountered many new bugs yourself? (I had been watching for this in these forums, but didn't see to much being encountered.)
            But then again, you just can't tell from looking at the forum..... Because most bug reports probably don't even end up referenced there in the first place...
            (as they are reported only via email, and thus unintentionally "hidden" from view to others) ~ That's why I'm all for an "exposed bug report knowledge base."

            I have always fully intended to move to v.11. (The move is "eminent.") But I had resolved to pretty much stuck with v10.5 until the real features of v.11 arrive. (mobile app support, which isn't quite here yet) ~ In an attempt to avoid encountering problems with the new release.


            If you're indicating you have not run into many "problems" (as in past versions) ~ I'll make the jump this week.....
            ~My usage of the term "problems" loosely refers to the "basics" (the core of A5), of what is already present in v10.5.
            I just don't want to encounter "pre-existing features" in v.11 that no longer work/behave as they presently do/did in v10.5
            (IMHO, v10.5 is quite clean, with the exception the "browse bug" scheduled to be repaired in the forthcoming update this week.)
            Last edited by SNusa; 02-08-2012, 12:13 PM.
            Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
            It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
            RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: Candidate next update is now available VS Alpha Five Version 11 Updates = conund

              Robert,

              Be assured that if v11 would have been buggy as v9 was for example you'd certainly see that on the messageboard, no doubt about that. Yes I did discover a number of new bugs mostly in the new stuff and they were all dealt with as I described earlier on.
              Frank

              Tell me and I'll forget; show me and I may remember; involve me and I'll understand

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: Candidate next update is now available VS Alpha Five Version 11 Updates = conund

                Originally posted by Clipper87 View Post
                Robert,

                Be assured that if v11 would have been buggy as v9 was for example you'd certainly see that on the messageboard, no doubt about that. Yes I did discover a number of new bugs mostly in the new stuff and they were all dealt with as I described earlier on.
                Cool! - I'm making the jump... Thanks Frank!
                Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
                It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
                RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

                Comment


                • #53
                  Re: Candidate next update is now available VS Alpha Five Version 11 Updates = conund

                  ...so which is the stable release. I can't sell! I can't create a crosstab, can't chart, can't, can't, can't. I was sold the new and improved and don't think it was ever delivered. I have a major upgrade to do and new programs to put out and its frustrating dealing with all these road blocks. STOP ADDING and FIX what's already there! My best experience has been with v8 and v10.5 3739, everything else is pretty much broken!

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: Candidate next update is now available VS Alpha Five Version 11 Updates = conund

                    Originally posted by Peter.Greulich View Post
                    Keith,

                    How's that gonna help all of us devil worshipers?
                    What about the scientists!

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: Candidate next update is now available VS Alpha Five Version 11 Updates = conund

                      Originally posted by omagarc View Post
                      ...so which is the stable release. I can't sell! I can't create a crosstab, can't chart, can't, can't, can't. I was sold the new and improved and don't think it was ever delivered. I have a major upgrade to do and new programs to put out and its frustrating dealing with all these road blocks. STOP ADDING and FIX what's already there! My best experience has been with v8 and v10.5 3739, everything else is pretty much broken!
                      Dude, breath.... OK... I have 3 sites I am building, maintaining, and running and converted from 10 and 10.5. There was some stuff that did not convert well. So that was just part of the learning path for 11. Give yourself some time. If you cant afford things to be broken, then do not convert, why fix what is working in v8. The truth that your client needs to hear is that there is a major upgrade difference and some issue will need to be worked out to get the features of v11.

                      I do not care what you are programming in, a version change such as this, will cause some pain. Even in the smoothest roll outs of my career in tech had their are gotcha's. Even with months of planning for a phase change.

                      In my opinion v11 is the the best product Richard and the Crew at Alpha have put out.

                      I know if you throw out some of the particulars there are plenty of people on this list that would love offer some ways to get around the migration issues you are facing.

                      Well anyway - v11 is a blast - some days I wonder what I want to do more... Run or Program in V11.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: Candidate next update is now available VS Alpha Five Version 11 Updates = conund

                        Your preaching to the choir! I've used Alpha since v3 and have put out some innovative stuff (In my mind at least). The problem comes when you get all these emails of the new and improved and one bites the bullet and drops some coin only to find that this is broken or that is broken in coding a new app. I haven't even begun trying to move my apps from 10.5 to v11. I'm proud to be part of the alpha family and have learned tons from this forum and have contributed my 5 cents worth here and there.

                        ....so ok ok i'm taking a chill pill!!! It just seems that too much attention is being focused on new features that ultimately break existing working features. When you get a GURU like Pete Conway complain, you know something is amiss!

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: Candidate next update is now available VS Alpha Five Version 11 Updates = conund

                          Originally posted by omagarc View Post
                          Your preaching to the choir! I've used Alpha since v3 and have put out some innovative stuff (In my mind at least). The problem comes when you get all these emails of the new and improved and one bites the bullet and drops some coin only to find that this is broken or that is broken in coding a new app. I haven't even begun trying to move my apps from 10.5 to v11. I'm proud to be part of the alpha family and have learned tons from this forum and have contributed my 5 cents worth here and there.

                          ....so ok ok i'm taking a chill pill!!! It just seems that too much attention is being focused on new features that ultimately break existing working features. When you get a GURU like Pete Conway complain, you know something is amiss!
                          I'm with you on this one..... This is the first time I've ever waited to upgrade, and I'm "sitting" on the subscription plan! (Surprisingly enough though, on the contrary, I've actually heard v11 was/is pretty clean.) ~ Thus, I was literally about to grab the "unofficial update" and begin working with v11 (desktop side) when your post showed up on this thread!

                          I'm a believer in Alpha 5, BUT: Learning (and working with) "what works as expected" is far more productive when you don't have to worry about (and discern) from "what isn't working as expected."

                          Are your problems related directly to using v11, or are they more in line with v11 working with older "code" from v10.5 (and/or v8)?
                          And also, are the majority of "these issues" desktop or web-side?
                          Last edited by SNusa; 02-23-2012, 03:22 PM.
                          Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
                          It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
                          RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Re: Candidate next update is now available VS Alpha Five Version 11 Updates = conund

                            I agree in part with each of you (last 4 posts). V11 is a blast but I also get a fair amount of frustration when using the Java Action Scripting and sorting through all the properties. I have no idea if I'm using something where it wasn't meant to be used or if it's a bug or if it's something that was not completed by Alpha. I know, from Alpha's point of view, nothing is incomplete. However there are times when it only seems logical to have included the rest of the process.

                            An example is reducing the size of a TextBox to conserve real estate. The problem is that while the TextBox can be reduced, one has to correspondingly reduce the font size. Unfortunately, the font must be reduced to a size that is too small simply because the area which contains the text is not adjustable. There is way too much space between the text and the edge of the box. So far, no one has responded to my post on that issue which doesn't upset me. Rather, it tells me there is probably no solution to the problem short of Alpha completing the what must be done to allow a readable size text. In other words, allow for a larger area within the textbox for the text.

                            Another example is a simple java script to close a grid or whatever, the same as clicking the X. There are java scripts to close various aspects of the grid which are specific to that particular part. Why should one have to create a work around for a simple close.

                            I think part of the issue is that there may be too much flexibility in v11. Example: There are many places to set the style, which for the most part is the same style box, some parts of which appear to have nothing to do with the object for which it is about. I suspect the reason for this is because it was easier and a big time saver to create the choices in the style box once and then use the same box wherever it's needed. The drawback for me is the humongous amount of TIME spent trying to figure out what does what and where. That said, who want's to give up the flexibility? Not me! A good case for more "on the fly explanation".

                            In Alpha's defense, I gotta hand it to Selwyn and the crew. So much to do, so little time to do it. Alpha's biggest expense is probably the labor. Yet, because technology and competition is increasing at such a rapid rate, where do they draw the line? It's gotta be a nightmare of a balancing act between the cost of labor and having enough staff to keep up with it all.

                            kenn
                            TYVM :) kenn

                            Knowing what you can achieve will not become reality until you imagine and explore.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: Candidate next update is now available VS Alpha Five Version 11 Updates = conund

                              Originally posted by forskare View Post
                              .....In Alpha's defense, I gotta hand it to Selwyn and the crew. So much to do, so little time to do it. Alpha's biggest expense is probably the labor. Yet, because technology and competition is increasing at such a rapid rate, where do they draw the line? It's gotta be a nightmare of a balancing act between the cost of labor and having enough staff to keep up with it all.
                              Definitely a balancing act. That being said, hasn't anyone else noticed that in technology, the more things change, the more things stay the same? For years, everyone was jumping on the next greatest thing, because the current thing was lacking. (and it was) But IMHO things have changed somewhat in this regard! I firmly believe that has / is approaching the point where the present offerings are good enough. As a result, the "next best & greatest" isn't all that important anymore. Take windows 7 for example..... I'm not looking forward to Windows 8 one bit. (But Windows Vista was a complete "flustercluck!") I think this line of thought carries over to other software & technologies too.... SQL 2007, 2010, 2012.... Office 2007, 2010 etc....

                              I truly think it's time that tech companies (in general) reflect back on what they presently have, and refine it before worrying about adding more "bling." I know Alpha is trying to get the portable stuff working.... But before they even think about v12 I think it would behoove them to put 3 months aside to focus on "perfecting what they have."

                              Here's a concept: Instead of focusing on roll-outs for desktop, web, and portable apps all at the same time.... Why can't they focus on only one of these exclusively for each new version? (and fix the bugs in the other stuff) ~It makes perfect sense to me.... Look at Microsoft's development cycle for example... They roll out new versions of an OS ever few years, not annually. Same goes for their Office products. (and just about everything else)

                              I'd much rather that the present a5 software code base be "hardened" before adding new stuff on top.... Properly implemented, Alpha could pull this off by by adopting a new roll-out strategy like what was mentioned in the previous paragraph. (Maybe I'm showing my age here in this post, but I prefer to think of it as wisdom!)

                              (ie: 2013 release an update for tablets & smartphones (because you just know this is going to take some work to get right), 2014 release an update for the web-side, and in 2015 refine the desktop. I would think that doing this in a modular fashion would also be much more conducive to fixing bugs in their code-base too! (If there is enough "modularity" in their code, this could be facilitated, right?
                              Last edited by SNusa; 02-24-2012, 01:20 AM.
                              Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
                              It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
                              RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: Candidate next update is now available VS Alpha Five Version 11 Updates = conund

                                The reality is V11 is a wonderful work in progress.. As long as you remain aware of that and take the bad with the good, then you will still be in-front by using it, that said, and I'm not having a wing... I don't care if Alpha fix things or not - I have to work around things.. you have to work around things and you can do that, it's not my product and it's not my problem to fix - the view "I'll fix it when someone tells me it doesn't work is just plain un-acceptable. NOW - in a project I have been working on - I spent at least 50% of my time making thing work that just didn't - look at this for example you do a free form search - you do a from-to in say dates, and it works, go turn the column heading to off and it's all over red-rover... you see the place holders.. the idea of building feature packs at this stage of the game is mind-blowing poor business practice, its like trying to put air in rim without a tyre .. the product has issues and that's a fact. That being said - I still managed to develop in-good-time. And for the record the last time I tried to comment about bugs in V11, I got an email from Selwyn saying "I'm not aware of any bugs in V11" - and offered to help me if I paid for support.. can show you the emails if you don't believe me. But I use it in the hope it will settle down and become what it should already be - the best.
                                Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
                                Albert Einstein, (attributed)
                                US (German-born) physicist (1879 - 1955)

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