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3523 .... lots of issues

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  • #76
    Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

    Thanks Ira... you have helped me many times and i really appreciate it.

    1) yes i am referring to dbf tables. i'm not sure if a pack is being carried out or if the record is being changed. The delete_record-duplicate_record may in fact be a change_record_to_an_existing_record problem.

    in any case when i try to undelete the record, it is not there to undelete.

    it is most likely that the problem is occurring during data entry on a form based on a set with 1:many relationships. But it is not a particular form. The problem occurs in the Consultants, Orders, Customers, and Orderpayments tables. There are a number of sets with associated forms for these tables.

    2) indexes are being corrupted and this may be part of the problem. The index corruption seems to be happening when i copy the 'application files' from my development version to the production application. However i always perform a reindex and compact immediately after updating the application.

    i have noticed that occasionally a form based on a set with 1:many relations will display incorrect associations but a reindex always sets things right.

    The fact that this index corruption is happening more often and is at least correlated with the 'delete/change record' problem may be at pointing towards the solution... don't know how to follow this up though!!??

    3) "10 for 1, 4 for the other" i meant to say "10 years problem free for one application and 4 years problem free for the other.

    4) the applications are running on a network using shadow copies. I refresh the shadows every time i update the application.

    However, it is very rare for more than one person to be using the database at the same time. When more than one person is using the database the max number is 3 simultaneous users and more often 2. They are all using the same version of A5V10 Run Time.

    5) i am interested in obtaining consultant help but i was hoping to have a more defined problem to present. As a consultant myself i know how difficult it can be to be faced with a problem that is described as 'it doesn't work... fix it!"

    Thanks for your guidance!



    • #77
      Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

      By any chance, do the problem tables allow data entry vis-a-vis embedded browse?
      AlphaBase Solutions, LLC

      [email protected]


      • #78
        Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

        i think that the problem does involve imbedded browses...

        GOOD NEWS... !!!

        ... i hope!

        I sent a 'bug report' to Alpha at 2am today... Cian got back to me a few hrs later!!!!

        i have a pre-release update and will check it out (as well as some of the code in my forms) today and tomorrow.

        I will get back to the message board as soon as i know how it works!!

        I am SOOO relieved that folks like you are here for me and with Alpha's prompt response.... gets a little lonely when surrounded by unhappy clients.

        Thank you!!


        • #79
          Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

          Originally posted by David Boomer View Post
          i think that the problem does involve imbedded browses...
          If it's any consolation, I had this problem, as well - going back all the way to v7, I believe. Sometimes, when entering records in an embedded browse it would duplicate the previous displayed record and delete another. I believe the duplicated record actually overwrote the other record, so there would be no way to retrieve the "deleted" record. It only occurred randomly. Solution (for me): disallow data entry in embedded browses.
          AlphaBase Solutions, LLC

          [email protected]


          • #80
            Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

            Originally posted by goldberg2727 View Post
            I think the point here is that when an update is released...users should not have to back up there databases...or test the patch before using it!!!! this is what we pay Alpha Software to do!!!! there is no excuse for software to be released to users with such devastating flaws!

            No to mention...even if I were to waste my time testing a patch when it is released to approve it's stability before installing it on my clients system, there is nothing stopping my clients from downloading and installing a patch on their fact Alpha alerts users that a new patch has been released through the start up screen in Alpha! I had several users who installed the updates without consulting me before doing so and made it extremely time consuming and difficult for me to isolate the numerous problems they encountered...not to mention the amounts of corrupt data the patch inflicted upon my users!

            Frankly, to tell someone not to install a patch before it is tested by the user is unrealistic and absurd! That is not the way it works! Users should never have to test an update that is pushed on to it's users! Ever!
            Hi Lee,

            I don't want to appear highfalutin or anything, I'm really just trying to help. I noted from your signature tag that you're associated with a consulting firm. Have you ever done development in an Enterprise IT environment? Because the gist of your "users should never have to test updates" argument is extremely inaccurate.

            I could site numerous examples, but just a few I've encountered are:
            • CA (Computer Associates - the biggest purveyor of commercial software before Microsoft took the title) sent me an update to a product called UniCenter, a unified UNIX system admin tool for HP-UX. Crashed my system (about 120 users) about every seven days - much data lost.
            • Sybase 10 - page versus row level locking issues caused the system to degrade performance almost to nothing after 40 users logged in.
            • I can't count how many times my guys have done a global push of Windows updates that had to be rolled back.
            The point is, it is Strict IT Doctrine that you never trust ANY software release until its rolled out in a test environment, preferably one that simulates your production environment. "Regression Testing" is a critical best practice of software development.

            The reason I say it should simulate your prod environ is all of the examples I pointed to above were tested - but the laboratory was too small and the test methodology was insufficient to detect these errors before foisting them onto my users.

            As a sort of corollary to that, every project I manage has a key stakeholder associated with it that must organize and oversee the tests of the system themselves and sign off on the new development or existing system upgrades before they are "productionalized." Why? Because they tend to know the business rules and real world use of the system better than anyone else, they're the one's who will suffer from any bugs/feature drops/inaccuracies of the target system, and this garners end-user support and somewhat reduces the "It's the IT dept.s fault" syndrome.

            So, in shops I've managed (and in my current consulting role) I always have at least three environments (more if there are more simultaneous projects): a development, a test, and a production area (I mentioned this in another post - sorry for repeating). Development is were the changes are made, Test is where both I and the end-user confirm the changes - if anything is found, it cycles back to development until fixed and the cycle repeats.

            Only when I, the key stakeholder, and the project's sponsor (usually the user's boss) sign off does it cycle into production. If it's a core system software item (such as an OS, DBMS, Development tool, etc.) the process is a bit different but follows the same basic format.

            The bottom line is I agree that AlphaSoftware has a responsibility to thoroughly and rigorously test their updates before rolling them out to the community. But simulating every user's complex setup is difficult - there are always confluence errors that are almost impossible to predict.

            So, before rolling updates out to your users, it makes sense to examine them in advance, for defensive purposes if nothing else. My feeling is that your statement of "users should never have to test updates" be revised to read "users should always test any updates". It's saved my behind many times.




            • #81
              Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

              well stated Bill!!!

              I have certainly had frustrating times with some very serious problems in Alpha....

              ...but i have experienced similar or worse problems with Oracle and particularly microsoft VBA issues... at no time did i get turn around times with these companies for bug fixes like i have with 2 or 3 bug issues in Alpha.

              I understand the frustration expressed by folks who's confidence in Alpha has been tested, but i think that the Alpha folks and particularly this forum go a long way to offsetting this frustration.



              • #82
                Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

                Misbehaving controls, broken controls, or loss of functionality is one thing. But this series of releases since December was plaqued with problems including data corruption, and data changing.

                I agree that developers need to test the basics of theirs apps with each new patch but given the number of patches (which is really good to see) that would take an unreasonable amount of time. Sometimes you take a chance of not getting burned.

                Given the seriousness of the problems introduced patches need to be better tested by A5. This last set was a mess.


                • #83
                  Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

                  I agree that developers need to test the basics of theirs apps with each new patch but given the number of patches (which is really good to see) that would take an unreasonable amount of time.
                  Fewer patches and higher quality patches means less time wasted testing and retesting. Our time is valuable.


                  • #84
                    Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

                    Originally posted by David Boomer View Post
                    I am experiencing the same problem: records disappearing (as if a delete AND a pack had executed) and others (at the same time) duplicated.
                    Add my name to the list. Perhaps mine is a bit different...

                    1st Occurrence: I deleted a record in a browse in a conditional object and all records in the table were deleted. DB compact did not help.

                    2nd Occurrence: I deleted a record in a subform on the conditional object and not only was the record deleted but the conditional object on the form also disappeared unless I open the form in design mode. DB compact did no good. I created a brand new form and copied the fields, etc. from one form to the other. Now I have two forms the same way.

                    I checked the tables and the parent record was deleted (not the record I was deleting) along with the child record which is the one I was deleting.

                    I have no clue as to why and how in the world would one duplicate this since it happens intermittently.

                    Now to figure out why the conditional object does not show in View mode but it's there in Design mode.

                    TYVM :) kenn

                    Knowing what you can achieve will not become reality until you imagine and explore.


                    • #85
                      Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

                      Well, the disappearing conditional object was quick and easy enough to solve. In the past, each and every time, a particular layer of the conditional object was always in view when the from opened or when switching from design to view mode. After the deleted record, that layer switched to the default layer. Clicking on the buttons to view the other layers works. Now it's a different layer which appears to be the default layer.

                      A thought that occurred to me; Is the default layer supposed to be the layer in view whenever the form opens? If so, mine does not.
                      If not, how do I set a particular layer to be in view rather than let Alpha choose it randomly? I'll put this on a separate psot as well.

                      TYVM :) kenn

                      Knowing what you can achieve will not become reality until you imagine and explore.


                      • #86
                        Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

                        Cian (Alpha Development) sent me an update one week ago* (March 21) that seems to have fixed the problem ie "A change was recently made where page-up, page-down and home navigate was blanking the view , and a blank record was being propagated down to the embedded browse CanRowChange instead of the last valid row".

                        I have been testing for one week and the problem seems to have been fixed... i'm still about sceptical about using embedded browses (particularly if used in conditional objects or with tables at levels >2) but i'm hopeful!

                        The next update should be out soon... or you could try reporting your problem as a bug.


                        * Alpha responded to my bug report in 4 or 5 hours! I am very impressed with the support i have received.


                        • #87
                          Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

                          Originally posted by frankbicknell View Post
                          I don't think you have to have an additional license. I never had an activation problem with virual PC.
                          You are right. Technically, its a "per CPU" license. As virtualiztion gains momentum, they may address this.

                          I run a completely separate machine (Core 2 i5) that runs VMWare Server2, which is a FREE product. Currently, I have versions of A5v10 App Server running in WinServer 2003, Windows 7, and XP for testing purposes, as well as a development LAMP/LAPP server, Compiere ERP, Symfony, OWL, and FileZilla, all running Ubuntu Hardy, and several "Turnkey" and "JumpBox" applications. I don't run them all concurrently, but have 3-4 running constantly and the others intermittently with no noticeable lags or other issues. I run and manage them all from my desktop using RDC or VNC. Other than a little "open desktop clutter" it runs great!

                          The point is, you can safely and confidently make changes or add things or test things without fear of losing access to your machine or applications in the process.

                          I recommend the product highly. I think that getting these OSes and applications into their own isolated environments really aids testing because it eliminates having to isolate confluence issues.

                          The real beauty of this setup is I can keep complete copies of "just installed" version of OSes and drop in things like A5v10, Windows or Java patches or other things and, if I encounter a problem, I can start again with a fresh install simply by copying the Virtual workspace back in.

                          Additional, if you plan to migrate any of these into vSphere later, WMware has a free migration tool


                          • #88
                            Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

                            Changed my mind
                            TYVM :) kenn

                            Knowing what you can achieve will not become reality until you imagine and explore.


                            • #89
                              Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

                              Ken, I always have the "default" layer be blank - i.e., no conditions are met - and the appropriate layer will display based on the condition. Also, at the form's onfetch event you can add cond1.refresh(), which also fires when you open it.

                              I have one medical app where there are two embedded browses (all based on the same two tables) in each of 25 conditions/therapies and each browse is slightly different, based on the therapy, which is the basis for the conditional. Been runnin-like-flynn 24/7 for close to 6 years.
                              Cole Custom Programming - Terrell, Texas
                              972 524 8714
                              [email protected]

                              "A young man who is not liberal has no heart, but an old man who is not conservative has no mind." GB Shaw


                              • #90
                                Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

                                I'm a latecomer to this thread but have related issues to what has been discussed.

                                I found that the current release, 2814_3539, has significant issues. Most prominent is the inability to add a record in a region. This is running under 64-bit Windows 7.

                                I backed down to the previous release, 2787_3538, and that problem was gone but new problems arose, such as freeze-ups or delays while multiple users (only two for the test) are hitting the file.

                                I have not yet, but will try, the suggested 2659_3515 to see if it will function, but when I look at the 36 releases to date for A5V10, I wonder where in this group is the most stable one to use. My irate client is wondering why all the equipment upgrades and move to Windows 7 and upgrade to A5V10 has resulted in a degradation of performance to the point where it is unusable. They have been performing perfectly well with old computers running with A5V7 under Windows XP, and now they can't turn back. Luckily they are still working with the old system and the old equipment. Each desktop has an old and new computer with an old and new set of software, and they just can't go live with the new until I find a way to make V10 work for them.

                                I wonder if there are that many obstacles to designing a stable V10 under Windows 7 64-bit. I realize that V10 is packed with great additional functionality, but when will it plateau to a reasonable degree of stability and speed?

                                Perhaps the web apps don't have these issues, understandably. But this is strictly a desktop application, and that's what counts right now.