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3523 .... lots of issues

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  • Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

    Originally posted by Al Buchholz View Post
    Jeff

    You can start task manager prior to the stall and watch what is going on...

    Guessing at a cause and effect usually leads to more problems than it solves..
    Running out of variables to test. 64 bit seems likely but how does it get proven? Best way to see is trying 32-bit Win 7 computers, but there are none there. I'm not sure why it would lead to more problems when testing an alternative. 32-bit A5V10 used with 32-bit Windows 7 should be a better match than 32/64, n'est pas?

    Comment


    • Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

      Originally posted by Jeff Fried View Post
      Running out of variables to test. 64 bit seems likely but how does it get proven? Best way to see is trying 32-bit Win 7 computers, but there are none there. I'm not sure why it would lead to more problems when testing an alternative. 32-bit A5V10 used with 32-bit Windows 7 should be a better match than 32/64, n'est pas?
      One idea, if you don't have a 32-but machine, is you can download VMWare Server2, install a 32 bit machine on it and run it there. This isolates the environment and will demonstrate differences.

      Comment


      • Window 7 32-bit vs. 64-bit

        Has anyone actually tested the performance running under 32-bit vs. 64-bit Windows 7? I have been trying to figure out if the lack of performance (i.e., stall) is related to the workstations and server being 64-bit Windows 7. Before I have them convert back to 32-bit, I would like to determine if this will be a waste of time.

        The specs on the computers are very good -- fast processor, lots of memory, run Windows 7 Pro, etc. When only one computer is working on the database, there doesn't appear to be a problem. As soon as a second computer get involved in transactions (order entry), one of the computers slows to a crawl or worse.

        We even tried an experiment. They have an older order entry application that is the live application they use. It runs under Windows XP and uses a Snap Server (network attached storage) as the file server. They've been doing this for years, currently under A5 version 7, and it is without issue. As soon as we tried this on the new equipment under Windows 7 Pro 64-bit with A5V10, the otherwise well-performing application took on the characteristics previously described, a crawl to a stall. We took the Snap Server out of the equation and used a third Windows 7 64-bit computer as the file server -- no change.

        The application is transaction-heavy meaning there are lookups involving many customers and many products to select from, but this should not be a showstopper, especially since that system runs fine under Windows XP, A5V7, old computers, and an old version of the Snap Server.

        I can't think of any other variable worth testing besides the 64-bit operating system. I would hope not to convert all computers to 32-bit just to find the problem still exists. So if you have any insight or knowledge about this, I would certainly appreciate hearing about it.

        By the way, I spoke to someone in sales at Alpha Software regarding plans for 64-bit A5 as well as issues related to running under 64-bit. According to this person, there are no plans for a 64-bit Alpha Five and he said there should be no problem running under 64 bit Windows 7.

        I realize the 64-bit/32-bit issue is not relevant for Web applications, but this is a pure desktop application. Perhaps there are no plans for 64-bit A5 because Alpha's resources are being placed against Web App primarily, but all I want to know is how to get performance out of A5V10 running under Windows 7.

        Thank you.

        Jeff

        Comment


        • Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

          find Bill Parker - I'm pretty sure he is using V10 on 7-64 - search for his name and send him an email. Also, try emailing Lenny and Selwyn at alpha.
          Cole Custom Programming - Terrell, Texas
          972 524 8714
          [email protected]

          ____________________
          "A young man who is not liberal has no heart, but an old man who is not conservative has no mind." GB Shaw

          Comment


          • Re: Window 7 32-bit vs. 64-bit

            Originally posted by Jeff Fried View Post
            I realize the 64-bit/32-bit issue is not relevant for Web applications,
            I think in Server 64 bit really matters.

            This data is from 2003 server

            On the server, however, a 64-bit OS is a completely different story. The Microsoft.com operations blog documents the massive performance improvement they realized when they switched to the 64-bit edition of Windows Server 2003:


            req/sec response time
            X86 ASP 7.85 244 ms
            X86 ISAPI 110.85 248 ms
            X86 Static 41.90 135 ms
            X86 Static (cached) 47.11 1 ms

            X64 ASP 7.41 53 ms
            X64 ISAPI 125.43 18 ms
            X64 Static 31.01 3 ms
            X64 Static (cached) 54.51 1 ms


            Note: Windows Server 2008 R2 is not available in x86 format.

            x86-32 Systems
            Servers with 32-bit processors are already becoming legacy systems. New servers should be deployed with a Windows Server for x86 edition only when a compelling reason exists that prevents taking full advantage of the hardware with a Windows Server 2003 x64 edition. As Windows Server 2008 R2 is not available in x86 format, you will need to downgrade to the previous Windows Server 2008 edition (fully available in 32-bit across all editions).

            More information here


            No 64 bit version coming from Alpha. This is a big thing.

            Ken

            Comment


            • Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

              Ken, as I read the stats, it looks like the 64 is taking longer than the 32. Am I not reading it correctly?

              I would speculate that there will never be a 64 bit version of Alpha, at least until they completely abandon dbf's. That engine has SEVERAL million lines of code.
              Cole Custom Programming - Terrell, Texas
              972 524 8714
              [email protected]

              ____________________
              "A young man who is not liberal has no heart, but an old man who is not conservative has no mind." GB Shaw

              Comment


              • Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

                Originally posted by martinwcole View Post
                Ken, as I read the stats, it looks like the 64 is taking longer than the 32. Am I not reading it correctly?
                Full Article is here

                Ken

                Comment


                • Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

                  Jeff

                  Can you be more specific about the performance issues?

                  Is everything slower, or some specific tasks? ie buttons - scripts... or some table open/close - copy of data from here to there...

                  In previous systems, you've used another report writer and jumped back and forth between Alpha and RR. Are you still doing that and what is the performance when going back and forth?

                  How are the lookups done that are slowing down? FR lookups, or something else?
                  Al Buchholz
                  Bookwood Systems, LTD
                  Weekly QReportBuilder Webinars Thursday 1 pm CST

                  Occam's Razor - KISS
                  Normalize till it hurts - De-normalize till it works.
                  Advice offered and questions asked in the spirit of learning how to fish is better than someone giving you a fish.
                  When we triage a problem it is much easier to read sample systems than to read a mind.
                  "Make it as simple as possible, but not simpler."
                  Albert Einstein

                  http://www.iadn.com/images/media/iadn_member.png

                  Comment


                  • Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

                    Originally posted by Al Buchholz View Post
                    Jeff
                    Can you be more specific about the performance issues?
                    My point was that soon all servers will be 64 bit and they don't support 32 bit code like server 2003 and old 2008. There will be performance lost with 32 bit software.

                    Ken

                    Comment


                    • Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

                      Originally posted by kkfin View Post
                      My point was that soon all servers will be 64 bit and they don't support 32 bit code like server 2003 and old 2008. There will be performance lost with 32 bit software.

                      Ken
                      Ken

                      I understand what your point is.

                      But I want to understand what Jeff is facing today with the system that he is running. I have systems similar to Jeff's and don't have the performance issues, so I need to know what to avoid and/or Jeff may need to change what he is doing to get good performance.

                      Your issue is important, but not what I'm looking into today.

                      ( and btw this thread has been clearly highjacked from it's original subject...)
                      Al Buchholz
                      Bookwood Systems, LTD
                      Weekly QReportBuilder Webinars Thursday 1 pm CST

                      Occam's Razor - KISS
                      Normalize till it hurts - De-normalize till it works.
                      Advice offered and questions asked in the spirit of learning how to fish is better than someone giving you a fish.
                      When we triage a problem it is much easier to read sample systems than to read a mind.
                      "Make it as simple as possible, but not simpler."
                      Albert Einstein

                      http://www.iadn.com/images/media/iadn_member.png

                      Comment


                      • Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

                        does Server 2008 R2 not currently support 32 bit software? not clear on this, i.e., would have to get 2008 rgular if going to 64 bit
                        Cole Custom Programming - Terrell, Texas
                        972 524 8714
                        [email protected]

                        ____________________
                        "A young man who is not liberal has no heart, but an old man who is not conservative has no mind." GB Shaw

                        Comment


                        • Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

                          Originally posted by Al Buchholz View Post
                          Jeff

                          Can you be more specific about the performance issues?

                          Is everything slower, or some specific tasks? ie buttons - scripts... or some table open/close - copy of data from here to there...

                          In previous systems, you've used another report writer and jumped back and forth between Alpha and RR. Are you still doing that and what is the performance when going back and forth?

                          How are the lookups done that are slowing down? FR lookups, or something else?
                          Al,

                          Regarding R&R, it does not factor into this at all. This is a problem at the inception of the application. If anything, running external apps like R&R and Visual Foxpro are stable since they run as separate applications that don't exhibit these problems. Also, when you say "jumping back and forth between Alpha and R&R", that's not exactly what happens. R&R, like any external application run from within Alpha, is executed as a subroutine, and control returns back to Alpha. There is no point at which control is taken by R&R (or, for that matter, any VFP executable).

                          That being said, I'm talking about things that happen before any external procedures come into play. It's a straightforward order entry application at its root. You click on a button for a new order, or alternatively you click on a button for a new item within an order, and the popup for a new order is a list of customers while the popup for a new item is a list of that customer's products and associated pricing. There are buttons to jump to an area where promos and other discounts can be created, or margins and markups can be altered, but again, the problem occurs at the point of order entry.

                          If one computer only is adding an order, item, or anything else, things seem to move along properly. When two workstations are actively adding or editing orders, one of the workstations is slowing to a crawl or essentially stuck, as if it is waiting for the other to be completed.

                          The above refers to the "new" system I developed with substantial additions of bells and whistles pertinent to their business. So I originally thought I over-engineered it. But that's not the case. If we take the same older system they've been working with for years, and which is currently their production system in a Windows XP environment under A5V7, on older computers with not nearly as much memory or processing power, and I place that system on the Windows 7 64-bit computers, running under A5V10 since A5V7 would not work under Windows 7 theoretically, their old system does the very same thing as described earlier for the new system. Just the simple order entry tasks slow down the other workstation (or vice-versa) which is not the case when a bunch of order entry personnel are pounding away on this application in the WinXP/A5V7/non-64-bit environment.

                          So to be clear, no additional report writer or external procedure is part of this problem. It is strictly based on fairly straightforward Alpha Five procedures with lookups. As I mentioned, if only one workstation is pounding away, it flies by very fast -- everything is immediate and an order can be created in record time. Add one more user, and the ship sinks. It's as if they're struggling to share files.

                          Jeff

                          Comment


                          • Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

                            Originally posted by martinwcole View Post
                            does Server 2008 R2 not currently support 32 bit software? not clear on this, i.e., would have to get 2008 rgular if going to 64 bit
                            It is clearly targeted for 64 bit software. You have to specially install 32 bit support if you want to run 32 bit software.

                            Question is: What is the 32 bit performance. Hole server is planned to use with 64 bit software(and hardware).


                            My guess is: Windows 7 is last 32 bit Windows. Also we do not see any new 32 bit servers. Two years and we (software business) will be in 64 bit world. (Office 64 bit will change totally the business in desktops applications.)

                            Ken

                            Comment


                            • Re: 3523 .... lots of issues

                              Originally posted by martinwcole View Post
                              Ken, as I read the stats, it looks like the 64 is taking longer than the 32. Am I not reading it correctly?

                              I would speculate that there will never be a 64 bit version of Alpha, at least until they completely abandon dbf's. That engine has SEVERAL million lines of code.
                              Hi Martin,

                              I believe the first number in the series refer to something else (version, transactions, who knows). The last number, preceded by "ms" (i.e. milliseconds) is the operative number.

                              I read it the way you did at first as well and was thinking, "Gee, they look worse. How can that be?"

                              Comment

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