How far should we go when trying to help?

[Ted Giles]

I've just reached my pain threshold and offered a struggling Alpha novice a free app. which I use and plan to sell in the future.
I'd appreciate views on just how far the forum think I/we ought to help.
The assistance I've received over the years has been invaluable and at times I was grateful for a complete answer rather than a "lead".
Any thoughts on the matter

[DaveM]

Re: How far should we go when trying to help?

Hi Ted,

I too have given a complete(almost) application that I sell to a newbie for guidance with the request that it not be redone and made for sale.

How far the help should extend seems to depend on each circumstance. I prefer to guide them to solutions instead of writing the answer. That has seemed to work better for their benefit, but not always. Sometimes they just don't get it that easy. It is disturbing to me when they are asking for help and they obviously have not done anything to help(help files, etc) themselves.

I have helped a few or more and saw it come back to me later from that person where I was very grateful and glad I had helped earlier. A lot of my apps were made possible by help from the "saviours" on this forum. Most was by guidance and a few spots where I was given code.

I am not sure where to start and stop in all cases.

[Clunes]

Re: How far should we go when trying to help?

It is what you do with the help that counts. If you get the complete answer to the problem and then fail to workout how the person gave you the answer then that is purely missing the mark. If I get a complete answer, I will then take the time to workout why it worked, so that my understanding grows. I think that speaks for the attitude of the majority of this forum. The stronger the help, the better I get.

I think the big issue is making the help files and forum search process the first point for questions. I have been at fault many times by asling a question that has already been answered and appreciate the patience of those that knew.

This forum is the best resource tool that Alpha has and the great thing about it is the willingness of all to make it so.

[BigBoss1]

Re: How far should we go when trying to help?

Mark

I think you are hitting a point I was about to put on the forum to discuss.

My point is that we have super 'solutions' or 'help' discussed and solved within the forum, BUT they stay there. Unless you take the time to read the posting you may miss the solution you are looking for.

Now we do have a 'Code Archive' and I feel that this should be used more, i.e. when a solution is found we should make sure this is posted there as well, so that we can point the 'new users' to use the postings there before that same questions are posted.

Also should not this 'solutions' get to the WIKI when many user search but seemingly to no avail, but deep within the forum the answer is there but damn hard to find.

That just a thought we should think about, maybe we should have a moderator just to handle my thoughts.


David

[forskare]

Re: How far should we go when trying to help?

Also should not this 'solutions' get to the WIKI when many user search but seemingly to no avail, but deep within the forum the answer is there but damn hard to find.

Yessiree, no doubt about it. Most searches reveal a lot of superfluous data and a whole lot of wasted time is spent sorting through it. While some related searches appear at the bottom, it would be helpful if those were at the beginning of the results. To answer the question, I think you already have your answer but here's my .02, Give as much help as you feel comfortable.

[CALocklin]

Re: How far should we go when trying to help?

... If I get a complete answer, I will then take the time to workout why it worked, so that my understanding grows. ...

Yes, the "why" is sometimes the most important part. That's one of my disappointments with some of the help that I see given. Sometimes people just present a "do this" answer when a "here's what I'd use because...." would be more helpful. After all, there are often many ways to accomplish the same thing and it can be important to know why one way is better than another - or if they are all essentially the same.

I'm not suggesting that every response needs a "because". In fact, most probably don't. I'm also not suggesting a 5 paragraph "because" but sometimes just one or two sentences are enough to get the readers started in the right direction.

I guess I'm basically suggesting that people should remember that a lot of new users will read the responses - including people who seldom, if ever, post on the message board - and before posting an answer we should stop and think, "Would the reason for doing it this way be obvious to a new user?" If not, a quick "why" to get them started will help them make sure they apply it correctly.

[MikeC]

Re: How far should we go when trying to help?

My take....and hopefully will aid those that ask questions here so that they are more likely to get the answers they want. I know that several other "helpers" here feel the same.

When I check out a thread to see if it is one I will spend the time on to answer, I first look at how new the user is. Many of the following statements simply do not apply to a newcomer.

Next, I look for an indication of what many here refer to as "Due Diligence". This means that the user has searched for the answer in various places already but couldn't find it....and when I say "search" I mean not just a few minutes but, depending on the complexity of what is sought, this can be hours worth of time. Some may say it is not worth it to spend so much time doing this. I completely disagree with this. Every search I have ever done over the years has brought me more understanding as either I learn about something else I can use in the future, find the answer I was looking for, or even just learn how to search better.
If someone has shown that they have searched (not necessarily just stating it!), we will bend over backwards most times to help someone. Sometimes even complete code or a sample/video will be presented. I generally try to first lead the person to the answer as that way they will learn much more than if I just do it for them.....but if a user simply cannot figure it out, a solution will be given. There are times many of us will go off-board to figure out issues for people as this can be much faster in figuring out the solution and doesn't waste time playing 20 questions.

Information: we need information to be able to help....I, for one, do not have the time to play 20 questions! If someone will not give information requested, I refuse to have to repeatedly ask for even just the basics from them (I don't like an experience such as this as it too much like "pulling teeth"!!!). A sample with instructions as to how to reproduce the issue or illustrate the wants is most times the preferable way and usually will get many more responses. It also shows the due diligence discussed before.


Entitlement: If someone gives the impression that they deserve an answer for whatever reason, I can tell you that this simply is not tolerated on this forum....that person will get little or no help from us. I have seen this on rare occasions from a few users and I believe most (all?) are no longer even a member anymore---that kind of mindset just doesn't fit in here.

Posting back: I look for this as well. This message board is our knowledgebase---it needs to have complete answers whenever possible for each and every thread. So if a user posts back with a solution instead of just leaving a dead end thread when they find the answer themselves, it will be remembered (as will the opposite!). Even posting back to either say that the solution worked or even just "Thanks" will go a long way.

Respect: This is a user supported message board overall...not an Alpha company one. As such, all the "helpers" here are spending personal time here helping others. Treat them accordingly. Any user who tries to answer a question, even if incorrect, should never be berated by someone. I have seen (and have been the object of same) this at times....like Entitlement, these disrespectful users get little or no help from us.


I'm sure I missed some points for sure, but these are what I feel are key ones.

Getting back to the original question: For me it depends upon the above indicators and how much time I have to offer. I enjoy helping out as I usually learn something along the way or reinforce the knowledge I already have....and as most here, I have been helped out by fellow users either directly or indirectly (this message board).

[CALocklin]

Re: How far should we go when trying to help?

Very well said, Mike.

[forskare]

Re: How far should we go when trying to help?

When I check out a thread to see if it is one I will spend the time on to answer, I first look at how new the user is.

What do you mean, how a new user is? Is what?

When I say "search" I mean not just a few minutes but, depending on the complexity of what is sought, this can be hours worth of time.

Interesting. Many of us, if not most simply do not have "hours worth of time". We work for someone else and if I had an employee who spent "hours of time", we'd look at alternatives.

Every search I have ever done over the years has brought me more understanding as either I learn about something else I can use in the future, find the answer I was looking for, or even just learn how to search better.

One thing that is really needed to cut down on search time and surplerfluos data is adequate instructions on how to search. Using " " doesn't work very well if I want to search for "calculated" and "total". Results will be numerous with threads containing one or the other but both?

If someone has shown that they have searched (not necessarily just stating it!), we will bend over backwards most times to help someone.

How is one supposed to showthey have searched? By naming everything they did? If hours were spent, that in itself is a volumnous task.

Posting back: I look for this as well. This message board is our knowledgebase---it needs to have complete answers whenever possible for each and every thread. So if a user posts back with a solution instead of just leaving a dead end thread when they find the answer themselves, it will be remembered (as will the opposite!). Even posting back to either say that the solution worked or even just "Thanks" will go a long way.

AMEN!!!!!

Respect: This is a user supported message board overall...not an Alpha company one. As such, all the "helpers" here are spending personal time here helping others. Treat them accordingly. Any user who tries to answer a question, even if incorrect, should never be berated by someone. I have seen (and have been the object of same) this at times....like Entitlement, these disrespectful users get little or no help from us.

Another AMEN!!!!!

[Stan Mathews]

Re: How far should we go when trying to help?

He didn't say "how a new user is", he said "how new the user is".

[Ted Giles]

Re: How far should we go when trying to help?

Well I guessthat we all have a similar take on this, and thanks all for taking the time to respond.
I have to admit that my approach is simply this.
If I know the answer to a question, I'll try and feed it back.
If I don't, and the problem looks interesting and within my capability to solve, I have a go.
Else, I watch the more esoteric problems get solved and try my best to understand them.

I have to admit that there are times when I get fed up looking through posts and replies, and in doing so sometimes miss the nugget of information as I have run out of time.
I guess I sometimes fall into Mike's category of "didn't try hard enough" (joke!), but for newbie's the searches can seem interminable, and when you have just convinced your boss to purchase Alpha and have given all sorts of assurances that you are up to the task, sometimes you just need the "do this because". Having said that, the Help text is incredibly useful and I've found it to be factually informative.

To finish off this latest "rant", what is the search sequence/ search construct likely to get the most accurate result?
We can't use Binary Chop logic in the Forum the same way we can in Alpha Queries so I'm sure a few comments regarding personal experiences would help.

[forskare]

Re: How far should we go when trying to help?

Well Stan, only you would find the difference being the gramatical guru you are. Sorry about that.

[MikeC]

Re: How far should we go when trying to help?

Thanks Stan for chiming in....incredible how the changing of a couple of words can give a whole new meaning!

Ken, regarding

How is one supposed to showthey have searched? By naming everything they did?

Well, sometimes, yes! In fact, it is nice to know what has been tried so that time is not wasted giving them the same thing to try which doesn't work or to let us see if there was something done incorrectly and is why it did not work.

Other times it is pretty obvious to us when a new question is posed almost immediately after another has been answered....or a user has a lot of posts that either the answers are pretty obvious (relative term I know!) in the Alpha help file/user manual, FAQs, or have been answered so many times on the message board that almost any search would bring up one or more. A bit subjective I know, but I try to always lean in favor of the one who posted the question....especially when the user is new.

[forskare]

Re: How far should we go when trying to help?

Hi Mike,
FWIW, I was NOT trying to be critical, rather I was curious as to what you meant. I understand where you're coming from and agree. That said, when I've spent a lot of time searching the message board, Alpha Help and Wiki, I'm frustrated because after all the searching, Ive not found a relativily close answer. Is the answer there? Did I use the right search terms? This brings me back to my earlier comment about the lack of searching instructions. There are times when I've had better luck using Google. I bet if there are adequate instructions, there would be less inadequate questions.

[Peter.Greulich]

Re: How far should we go when trying to help?

I've just reached my pain threshold and offered a struggling Alpha novice a free app. which I use and plan to sell in the future.

Ted,

Don't give your work away. BUT, be as generous as you can. It's always a matter of balance - finding a middle way.

Thanks for your efforts!