How far should we go when trying to help?

[Keith Hubert]

Re: How far should we go when trying to help?

Along the lines of Cal's reply, when ever my young kids came home from school with a new word, they would ask me the meaning of that word. My first reply was always, what was the sentence that the word was used in? Having got that sorted first, I could give them a more meaningful answer. This gave them the understanding of the context of the word in question.

Just as a side issue, never tell a young child that certain words are swear words and they should not use them because they are BAD, you could tell them that some words are nonsense words and don't mean anything in a proper sentence. Don't worry, they will still use swear words when they get older!!!

As far as Ted's original question, this is a matter of personal choice, but to give away work that you are planning to sell, that I agree with Peter (who has helped me in the past) is being a little too generous. The other element to this to which you should ask yourself, were you giving your app away just to get this guy off your back?

[J.R. Noe]

Re: How far should we go when trying to help?

Speaking as a new user of Alpha.
I try to search the forum before posting anything, but many times I get a lot of returns that are not what I am looking for. This may be due to my lack of knowledge searching the forum. Sometimes it gets pointed out to me by another user, that my question has been answered before, but in a way I had not though of searching for, like using a function to search by (like ui_get_file), since I don't know the functions yet, I can't search for them.

Just like any other user forum, there is a domino effect with re-posting without searching first. Posting something already answered just adds more bloat to the forum, which in turn returns more on the next search for the next person, which if the user does not thoroughly search through all the returned posts, then chances are they will post another one...and so on and so on.

I am too new to be of much technical help to any Alpha user, but in another platform, I have helped many users and have given away completed applications to help a new user, that I intended to sell, only to find out later through an email tip that my application was very close to another, just released, application. Guess who released that! No good deed....well, you know the rest. This never stopped me from helping others, not all will take advantage of someones generosity, but I am much more cautious about what I send, and to who.

My analogy: helping some users is kind of like having a lazy brother-in-law. You keep giving him money, but he never works at anything, so you give him more money, and soon he expects the money, and then he gets angry when he does not get the money. No offense to anyone I hope, just my opinionated way of thinking.

Most of you in this current post has helped me, and some more than a few times. Some of you have gone as far as creating, changing or testing something for me that, I am sure, took much more than just a few minutes. I have truly been impressed with the help I have received from this user forum.

Mike, I agree about the respect issue. I have been stunned by some of the disrespectful remarks from some users to another user trying to help them. Posting does not grant entitlement.

[Steve Wood]

Re: How far should we go when trying to help?

It also depends a bit on your motivation. Early on I helped like crazy, drafting out complete solutions and testing to ensure I was accurate. This started back when the web app server was just getting started. I did that because I desperately needed to know how to do all of these things too! No one knew how to do anything because the environment was brand new. So I helped to help myself as well as the person who requested. It also got me known as a good developer and has provided me with clients. Now I am too busy with those clients to help as much as I used to, plus it really has gotten a lot more diverse, questions in a multitude of areas.

I agree with others that I like to help where it is appreciated, by which I mean that the person is also willing to work hard to figure it out, and provide help back to the rest of us when the do figure it out. Like J.R. just before me here, he has called a couple of times and I really like being of assistance because I know he is serious about his work, and goes right to work implementing whatever we discuss.

[wolf]

Re: How far should we go when trying to help?

Hi Ted,

Being a newbie to Alpha 5 and seeing the amount of help that has been provided to me personally I don't think you should give away your work.

I think Alpha 5 developers give a but of their time as it is in helping out who asks for it and I am grateful for the help I have received so far.

I still scratch my head on how easy it is to use Alpha 5 and sometimes I wonder if Alpha 5 will do what I need it to do. I say this because I am used to building software where to do it well you need to put up with the complicated processes, research code time and other issues that comes with it. It took me 5 minutes to create something in Alpha 5 where it took an hour or so to figure out in another database system. Heck I don't think you even need to add a refresh timer to refresh a data grid if its running on my Computer connected to A LAN where someone else populates the data and the data grid on my pc populates automatically with the new data. This is cool in itself.

Alpha 5 in my opinion compared to other programs is easier to use once you get the hang of it and I have used other reporting and database creation programs for a number of years.

The only issue I have is getting used to all of the files in my program folder compared to just having 1 file that stores everything :)

In closing I think if people keep on helping people this in itself is enough. We all learn differently and its up to us to keep the learning process going.
Personally I am a hands on person who like s to learn by playing with the software. There is also a ton of documentation available as well for those that like to learn by reading.

Hope this helps.

Joe

[Ted Giles]

Re: How far should we go when trying to help?

I say this because I am used to building software where to do it well you need to put up with the complicated processes, research code time and other issues that comes with it.

I think that is one of the "unlearning" issues which needs to be taken on board. Several times I've shown Access "Guru's" a quick prototype in Alpha and the response is "but you hardly touched the keyboard!"
The Alpha team have put a lot of effort into the development of a product which can honestly and truly be used with no knowledge of programming. (It helps though in the design). This is the unlearning bit as I suspect it's seen as "cheating".
Try showing a Sharepoint developer a Tabbed Form set up before their very eyes and watch the horror as you ask for it from them in 20 minutes.
I'm from a SOBasic, Cobol, DL1, PL1 with a very little bit of Access and VB background, but having used Alpha since 1991 (ish) my mind set is settled. It can do it, I just haven't found the help text yet!

[wolf]

Re: How far should we go when trying to help?

Hi Ted,

You are spot on. The issue with an experienced developer using Alpha is the unlearning issue and from day dot programming never needed to be difficult.

Alpha is an awesome program and I can't wait for the next version where we are able to use .net and charting in reports.

I am an experienced Reporting Analyst and have done this professionally for 3 years until the centre was closed down and we were all made redundant.

For a few reasons I have not been working in the industry for the last 3 years but during this time I have kept an eye on Alpha 5 and tested various versions to see what I could do in visual studio, Access & Crystal reports I could do with Alpha 5. I have a few database systems I want to develop but will only build these with the right software. That time came when I tested 10.5 and without hesitation purchased the Developer and runtime versions. With v10.5 I can do everything except the complex graphs and charts implemented in reports via a wysiwyg properties tab. This however I hope will be available in the next version and just in case it may not work how I would like it, I am more than happy with version 10.5.

Keep up the good work helping others.

Some may not show it but it is appreciated.

Joe

[MoGrace]

Re: How far should we go when trying to help?

Well it would help if Alpha would give us actual working examples when they add new features, then we could investigate them for ourselves (I'm thinking Dock Panels here). On the other hand, I download lots of examples from this forum to dissect them and am glad to have them as a resource. But giving away a complete app? Chances are you will not be able to provide them exactly what they were looking for (my one-time experience), and all your hard work will have been for nought. (Except as Steve said to teach oneself).

But please don't let that discourage you from submitting more great examples here! I know I look forward to them.

[forskare]

Re: How far should we go when trying to help?

Just like any other user forum, there is a domino effect with re-posting without searching first. Posting something already answered just adds more bloat to the forum, which in turn returns more on the next search for the next person, which if the user does not thoroughly search through all the returned posts, then chances are they will post another one...and so on and so on.

True but more often than not, many have a little different twist to it which can be very thought provoking and/or useful.

[J.R. Noe]

Re: How far should we go when trying to help?

You make a good point Kenn. Plus I need all the thought provoking I can get.

[DaveM]

Re: How far should we go when trying to help?

Steve Wood

Early on I helped like crazy, drafting out complete solutions and testing to ensure I was accurate. This started back when the web app server was just getting started. I did that because I desperately needed to know how to do all of these things too! No one knew how to do anything because the environment was brand new.

Thank You. You have really been a god send in the web area! You deserve the rewards of your work.

[Steve Wood]

Re: How far should we go when trying to help?

You have really been a god send in the web area! You deserve the rewards of your work.

Thank you too. Perhaps with today's announcement of a downgrade in USA credit rating, I will have more time to help again. :(