Concurrent access to multiple workspaces

[Tom Henkel]

Re: Concurrent access to multiple workspaces

Sam,

We have grown our Systems from ver1 through ver 5 and are now running quite nicely on ver 10.5. The upfront effort may be fairly large, but rethinking your applications after 15 years might be just what the Dr. ordered.

When we jumped from ver1 to ver 5, it was a HUGE change. Going from Card stacks to Forms, etc. was somewhat confusing at first, but it actually did make our multifaceted system cleaner, easier to navigate, and maintain. There is no reason that I can see to have 2 separate systems. You can accomplish this with one main "calling" database that allows you to go to either the wholesale or retail application and back again seamlessly. Our main Calling application loads any number of applications and they in turn can call other sub applications, all returning nicely back to the main menu. It took quite a bit of work, and some serious "sit down and think" time, but now, it works very well. Ver 1 was great, but the added capabilities of the newer versions justify a close look at revamping things.

Tom

[sgerber]

Re: Concurrent access to multiple workspaces

Sam,
I'm judging that at this juncture, we would have to see an example of what you have going before we could provide much more suggestion, guidence or alternative. Any chance you could post a minimalist copy of the app?

This being said, it sounds like two different forms - one wholesale and one retail. I guess I'm not understanding what is the flip-flop that you are trying to avoid and how it can be avoided if it is two different looks/forms.

Thanks for writing Mike. Here's what I meant by "flip/flop''. In Version 1 I have my Retail files in one directory and Wholesale files in another. We don't call them workspaces. I have a menu for each directory available to me side by side in a single A5 session. When a selection is made from Wholesale's menu it "flips" to the directory where its files are stored. Therefore the files can and do have exactly the same names in each directory.

I was hoping I could do the very same thing in V11. For whatever these graphics are worth to you or anyone, here's my Retail menu and my Wholesale menu. You will notice that the Wholesale menu is a subset of Retail and uses 100% identical table and set definitions (just different data) and identical forms, reports, labels, and scripts.

Retail Menu:
GCX_Retail_Menu .jpg
Wholesale Menu:
GCX_Wholesale_Menu .jpg

[sgerber]

Re: Concurrent access to multiple workspaces

Woah! Back the trolly up Sam!
If you are offended by my remarks, I apologise. Plough your own furrow and ride over the bumps.
It's your application so you must do it your way. We all have preferences, and someone who does it the way you are planning is Tom Henkel.
The glutton for punishment comment is meant to infer that you seem to have harnessed new technology without necessarily embracing the benefits.
V1 to V11 is akin to Props and Jets.

Build yourself a nav bar and see.
Code/New/Toolbar of take the Alpha Sports app apart and see how it works.

Ted, I'm not upset with you but I did feel somewhat criticized. Being a glutton for punishment implies that there's bad news in store and I wanted to know what you thought that was. Your recent remark about plowing my own furrow and ride over the bumps again implies, to me anyway, that my approach is inferior. What "bumps".

Couldn't you just leave it at "Your way works, Sam, and shouldn't present any performance issues."

I don't know Tom Henkel but obviously you respect him and that's good for me to hear.

I'll try the nav bar and see if it does anything for me.

--- Sam

[Ted Giles]

Re: Concurrent access to multiple workspaces

Woah! Back the trolly up Sam!
If you are offended by my remarks, I apologise. Plough your own furrow and ride over the bumps.
It's your application so you must do it your way. We all have preferences, and someone who does it the way you are planning is Tom Henkel.
The glutton for punishment comment is meant to infer that you seem to have harnessed new technology without necessarily embracing the benefits.
V1 to V11 is akin to Props and Jets.

Build yourself a nav bar and see.
Code/New/Toolbar of take the Alpha Sports app apart and see how it works.

[Mike Wilson]

Re: Concurrent access to multiple workspaces

Sam,
I'm judging that at this juncture, we would have to see an example of what you have going before we could provide much more suggestion, guidence or alternative. Any chance you could post a minimalist copy of the app?

The outstanding benefit of the the two instance approach is that all my objects (tables, forms, scripts, reports ...) are identical for my son's Retail and Wholesale businesses. The only thing that would be different would be the contents of the customer and invoice tables. I would, of course, change some colors, menu and form headings etc. in some way so my son would always know which window he was in.

This being said, it sounds like two different forms - one wholesale and one retail. I guess I'm not understanding what is the flip-flop that you are trying to avoid and how it can be avoided if it is two different looks/forms.

[sgerber]

Re: Concurrent access to multiple workspaces

Another option. Again IMHO

I have an app which runs in situations with mutually exclusive tax calculations and invoices.
I have a Logical Field which indicates the type of tax calc, and the forms I use reflect this. The underlying data is the same with only a few (about 2) redundant fileds in one situation and no redundant fields in the other.

2 workspaces? Only if you are a glutton for punnishment or have two completely separate applications with one common dataset.

BTW. A Navigation Bar (in V10.5) stays open all the time in Alpha so you could - if you really wanted to - have a Nav Bar with the different databased accessed that way.

Hi Ted. I'm aware that I could accommodate my son's Retail and Wholesale businesses in a single workspace. However it's not programmed that way. I don't have record codes (e.g. R for Retail, W for Wholesale) to help facilitate this. In the past when he entered the Wholesale business I copied over all the A5 files to a separate folder and used a subset of its objects without change, because change wasn't necessary. It was easy. All objects in both directories have the same names as each other. The data in the 3 tables was the difference. Different customers, different invoices. I changed the cosmetics of the menu and the form headers to help my son visually differentiate the two segments.

I felt that to integrate these two businesses into a common "workspace" would imposed an untenable amount of development time and was unnecessary, albeit nice to have. My aim was to convert his application to a 32bit Alpha and have if run perfectly and correctly, without error.

Are you faulting me for doing it this way, Ted? If so, remember that in Version 1 doing what I was doing was seamless. My Apps menu in Retail linked to the Apps menu in the Wholesale directory. A button's function on the Wholesale directory interacted by default with that directories files. Never a crossover or problem. In fact, both directories' menus sat side by side in Alpha 5. There was no concept of a "workspace". I'm only trying to make Version 11 provide a similar seamless interface.

With this as background do you feel I'm wrong in some basic way? Do you think I'm being lazy? If you do, Ted, please know I'm not a developer, I've been away from A5 for 15 years pursuing different interests. My interest now in Alpha 5 is rescuing my son from 16bit software that has become unwelcome in the 64bit technology of the 21st century.

Ted, I respect your opinion. Please expound on your view that I may be a "glutton for punishment". What punishment should I anticipate? Will this be a performance nightmare on any but the largest of computers? Will this, in your view, be a maintenance nightmare? Please explain the price that you think will be exacted from me.

Also, please explain the benefit of the Navigation Bar and how that may help me.

I look forward to any comments you may have, Ted.

Regards ... Sam

[Al Buchholz]

Re: Concurrent access to multiple workspaces

There are multiple ways to handle this.

2 workspaces

Types of customers - types of sales orders/invoices.

It is difficult to make a specific answer without a lot more information.

legal requirements
reporting needs
cross over accounts - wholesalers/retailer combos.
business transaction volume

All of the options are available and are used by system's designers for large and small installations. Each has a list of pros and cons.

No one has utopia...

[Ted Giles]

Re: Concurrent access to multiple workspaces

Another option. Again IMHO

I have an app which runs in situations with mutually exclusive tax calculations and invoices.
I have a Logical Field which indicates the type of tax calc, and the forms I use reflect this. The underlying data is the same with only a few (about 2) redundant fileds in one situation and no redundant fields in the other.

2 workspaces? Only if you are a glutton for punnishment or have two completely separate applications with one common dataset.

BTW. A Navigation Bar (in V10.5) stays open all the time in Alpha so you could - if you really wanted to - have a Nav Bar with the different databased accessed that way.

[sgerber]

Re: Concurrent access to multiple workspaces

A thing called the windows taskbar. Usually at the bottom of the screen.

A workspace need have no tables, one table if you build your menu form on a "summy" table. All of the commands that open layouts accept a full path. If you don't supply a full path Alpha assumes you mean to reference something which is part of the open workspace. If you do supply the full path, it doesn't matter what workspace they are part of or where they are located.

Don't envision, experiment and see.

Apologies, Stan. I read too much into the sys_shell command. I thought it meant that a second workspace would be accessible to me while I was in the first workspace. I tried it and realized that it opened a second instance of Alpha Five.

I do need to experiment as you suggest. It appears that all resources anywhere on my computer's hard drive are potentially available to my workspace. I had a hard time getting my head around this.

Thank you ... Sam

[Stan Mathews]

Re: Concurrent access to multiple workspaces

I can't see how the user can bounce back and forth.

A thing called the windows taskbar. Usually at the bottom of the screen.

how I can have a menu in Workspace A which addresses tables, sets, forms, and other objects that are physically stored elsewhere.

A workspace need have no tables, one table if you build your menu form on a "summy" table. All of the commands that open layouts accept a full path. If you don't supply a full path Alpha assumes you mean to reference something which is part of the open workspace. If you do supply the full path, it doesn't matter what workspace they are part of or where they are located.

I can't envision this.

Don't envision, experiment and see.

[sgerber]

Re: Concurrent access to multiple workspaces

Sam,

My brain is not functioning well this morning and I don't fully understand the whys and hows of what you want to do.

Two open instances of Alpha cannot communicate with each other as far as I know. You can open another workspace from within the current workspace (not closing the first) with

sys_shell('"drive_path_alpha5.exe drive_path_workspacename.adb")
like
sys_shell("C:\Program Files\a5V11\alpha5.exe C:\Executive\Bue\Bue.Adb")

So I think that answers the second question as well, you can't run one workspace from within the other. You can open individual layouts from another workspace, access the tables, etc.

form.view("formname@drive_path_tablename_form_built_on.ddd")

You might examine why you have two workspaces at all.

Gosh, Stan, I feel so dense. I'm encouraged by what you've said in this post but I can't envision how to go about this. The main thing that's making me crazy is trying to picture how I can have a menu in Workspace A which addresses tables, sets, forms, and other objects that are physically stored elsewhere.

Could it possibly be as simple as using form_view and accessing a menu (form) that's in Workspace B and then expecting that this form will understand that everything being referenced is located in its own workspace. And, I don't understand how sys_shell works and how it facilitates this. The concept of two workspaces open at the same time is so blurry to me.

You did say that a second workspace can be opened without closing the first but I can't see how the user can bounce back and forth.

Is there some help somewhere that can explain to me how to do all this. It sounds so tempting!!

BTW, the reason I have two workspaces is that I didn't want the development effort of creating duplicate resources with two sets of names for each. Like I said, Stan, I can't envision this.

Sorry ... Sam

[sgerber]

Re: Concurrent access to multiple workspaces

What I am reading here seems to flow into something like "how do I get my 2012 Ford Explorer started using my Model A engine crank". I must admit that I have no knowledge of Alpha v1 but I am pretty certain that methods and functionality have changed enough that trying to pattern your application in v11 based upon the data functionalities and methods of v1 is and will not flow as wished and expected. The crank just doesn't have a spot anymore and ain't gunna work!

I echo this completely -

Mike I have two workspaces only because Alpha 5 Version 1 made it easy to copy all my files to a second directory and only have 2 of my 3 tables with unique data. It supported a single menu that had a button to bring up a menu for the other business segment. Both menus exist side by side and any function selected on either menu operated against files that were contained in the directory where that menu lived.

Naturally I thought it would be great if I could do something similar in Version 11 but I have no idea how and I've been discouraged from doing it.

Can you tell me what the requirements and extra effort would be to pull this off within a single workspace?

Thanks ... Sam

[sgerber]

Re: Concurrent access to multiple workspaces

To emphasis what Stan is saying...

You would run 2 copies of Alpha - each opening a different workspace.

I would suggest a separate shortcut on the desktop for each occurrence of the workspace and a different color scheme on the forms to clarify to the user which workspace is open..

Al thanks for your response. Originally I was set against this approach because I felt that it was a shortcut and that the best way would be to run a single workspace and have the software flip-flop between menus supporting different directories. I was also against having to run 2 instances of Alpha Five because I thought it would be a real performance hit.

However, I just got off the phone with an A5 developer who gave me considerable time explaining different options. He and I also concluded that perhaps the simplest way for me was to go the two instances route, as both you and Stan suggested. He told me he wouldn't do it this way if he were developing a new application for a client who had my requirements.

The outstanding benefit of the the two instance approach is that all my objects (tables, forms, scripts, reports ...) are identical for my son's Retail and Wholesale businesses. The only thing that would be different would be the contents of the customer and invoice tables. I would, of course, change some colors, menu and form headings etc. in some way so my son would always know which window he was in.

Al, do you have any thoughts at all regarding the performance load on the computer in having Alpha Five running twice? Something like "not more than 10% more than running it once" or some such guess-timate?

Also, Al, and I realize this is only an opinion, do you think that it's at all common for small companies that have 2 or even 3 business segments to run multiple instances for each of these businesses? I'd be uncomfortable if I were the only one on the planet doing this.

Thanks again, Al .... Sam

[Mike Wilson]

Re: Concurrent access to multiple workspaces

What I am reading here seems to flow into something like "how do I get my 2012 Ford Explorer started using my Model A engine crank". I must admit that I have no knowledge of Alpha v1 but I am pretty certain that methods and functionality have changed enough that trying to pattern your application in v11 based upon the data functionalities and methods of v1 is and will not flow as wished and expected. The crank just doesn't have a spot anymore and ain't gunna work!

I echo this completely -

You might examine why you have two workspaces at all.

[Stan Mathews]

Re: Concurrent access to multiple workspaces

Sam,

My brain is not functioning well this morning and I don't fully understand the whys and hows of what you want to do.

Two open instances of Alpha cannot communicate with each other as far as I know. You can open another workspace from within the current workspace (not closing the first) with

sys_shell('"drive_path_alpha5.exe drive_path_workspacename.adb")

like

sys_shell("C:\Program Files\a5V11\alpha5.exe C:\Executive\Bue\Bue.Adb")

So I think that answers the second question as well, you can't run one workspace from within the other. You can open individual layouts from another workspace, access the tables, etc.

form.view("formname@drive_path_tablename_form_built_on.ddd")


You might examine why you have two workspaces at all.