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Desktop IS NOT DEAD! (Forum activity reinforces this!)

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    Desktop IS NOT DEAD! (Forum activity reinforces this!)

    Numbers don't lie!

    Frequently I can't help but notice that there is more forum activity on the "desktop side of a5", than on the web side...... Worth mentioning!
    (Maybe it's "newbies" realizing how beneficial it is to develop a fundamental understanding of the "desktop side?")

    Even if so, this is good! I just hope Alpha "concurs!"
    (I probably should have posted this on the web side too.....)
    Last edited by SNusa; 02-03-2013, 02:06 PM.
    Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
    It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
    RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

    #2
    Re: Desktop IS NOT DEAD! (Forum activity reinforces this!)

    It's my case :)

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Desktop IS NOT DEAD! (Forum activity reinforces this!)

      Originally posted by SNusa View Post
      Numbers don't lie!

      Frequently I can't help but notice that there is more forum activity on the "desktop side of a5", than on the web side...... Worth mentioning!
      Robert, I don't mean to rain on your parade, but how do you get that? I see the exact opposite.

      e.g. at this moment:

      v11 desktop has 7 threads updated today
      v11 web has 12 threads updated today

      Every day there are more threads & new posts on v11 web than v11 desktop - I've noticed.

      Furthermore (at this moment):

      WEB:
      v11

      Threads: 4,440
      Posts: 23,825

      v10
      Threads: 6,780
      Posts: 36,219

      v9
      Threads: 6,780
      Posts: 36,219


      Desktop:
      v11
      Threads: 1,244
      Posts: 9,515


      v10
      Threads: 4,387
      Posts: 31,409


      v9
      Threads: 5,672
      Posts: 39,505

      The only place desktop is ahead is v9 posts (but not threads) and v9 goes way back.

      So how did you arrive at your conclusion?


      (but I'm not saying the desktop is dead)
      Peter
      AlphaBase Solutions, LLC

      [email protected]
      https://www.alphabasesolutions.com


      Comment


        #4
        Re: Desktop IS NOT DEAD! (Forum activity reinforces this!)

        Hey Peter.....

        I see what you see now too. But the last few times I checked (earlier today and last night), there were as many (or more) people on the desktop side than on the web site. (It's been close a lot of times too, which I think is still a positive.) ~ This is something I have been keeping an eye on, because I suspect Alpha does too.... (Their secrecy doesn't necessarily reveal their future intentions for the desktop, but I'm sure they follow the numbers.

        And on numerous occasions, I've been pleasantly surprised at the distribution of users online!
        (Of course when you check in and there are only a total 14 users worldwide at any given time, that's not good for anyone's sake.)

        My statement was not based on actual post count. I'm looking at how many users are online & searching the forums..........

        Right now, it's 9 looking at the desktop side, and only 6 on the web side.....
        And right now, it's 10 to 4, desktop "still winning!"

        PS: I suspect that looking back, more then half of the threads/posts I have made (desktop side where I presently still reside) over the years were not posts asking for help, but posts trying to either deal with issues, or in some cases, were attempts to assist others with their issues. ~ So it's no surprise (to me) that the web side is going to "rule hands down" in this regard. ~ Feature set & code is changing daily there. Consequently, I suspect there are "plenty of surprises" that folks are struggling with? (Assuming history repeats itself.....)

        Besides: The web side encompasses a much deeper "rabbit hole" based upon a mix of many interwoven technologies.
        ~In other words: Generically speaking, it (web technology as a whole) is huge ever-changing complicated mess!
        Last edited by SNusa; 02-03-2013, 04:00 PM.
        Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
        It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
        RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Desktop IS NOT DEAD! (Forum activity reinforces this!)

          I didn't know we were in a race. Although activity here proves Desktop has serious developers building or maintaining applications, there are close to zero new requests for Desktop applications on IADN or my personal business, and it has been dwindling for years. The RFPs I get from industry or government which used to all specify Windows GUI, now all say "browser-based", even for internal-only use. The forum conversation count here is a measure of what is happening now, not so much a measure of where things are going, so I am sure Alpha watches all sides to determine their future course. I have been building a new Desktop application for a client and am pleasantly surprised that, from my perspective having not used it for years, that Desktop looks like it has been markedly improved since my last use.
          Steve Wood
          See my profile on IADN

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Desktop IS NOT DEAD! (Forum activity reinforces this!)

            The desktop is better know and people do not have to post as much as they do on the web side. You CAN throw that into the equation!

            Both sides are comrades/friends and both sides need to survive and thrive for alpha and we all "as a whole" to exceed in the future.
            Dave Mason
            [email protected]
            Skype is dave.mason46

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Desktop IS NOT DEAD! (Forum activity reinforces this!)

              You can't say anything about the usage of desktop or web if only based on the number of threads here. Furthermore, whether you get any inquiries for them also does not say that much to begin with, it largely depends on which market niche you are in. I always wonder about the "rope pulling" activities between desktop and web that some initiate on this forum. Maybe all are missing the point. Chances are, that in the future we will not see either one of them dominate the market, but instead will see "hybrid applications" as the preferred choice to meet most problems. At this point in time already (v11) Alpha offers the opportunity to start moving into the hybrid path and I must say it offers very powerful opportunities that will enable developers to develop once, deliver three: desktop, web or hybrid without much added effort. The strange thing is, we do have a section for desktop and web here, but we don't have a section for hybrid yet. A gap I think. So I would suggest forum leaders to introduce a hybrid section into the forum.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Desktop IS NOT DEAD! (Forum activity reinforces this!)

                Originally posted by mronck View Post
                You can't say anything about the usage of desktop or web if only based on the number of threads here. Furthermore, whether you get any inquiries for them also does not say that much to begin with, it largely depends on which market niche you are in. I always wonder about the "rope pulling" activities between desktop and web that some initiate on this forum. Maybe all are missing the point. Chances are, that in the future we will not see either one of them dominate the market, but instead will see "hybrid applications" as the preferred choice to meet most problems. At this point in time already (v11) Alpha offers the opportunity to start moving into the hybrid path and I must say it offers very powerful opportunities that will enable developers to develop once, deliver three: desktop, web or hybrid without much added effort. The strange thing is, we do have a section for desktop and web here, but we don't have a section for hybrid yet. A gap I think. So I would suggest forum leaders to introduce a hybrid section into the forum.
                Hi Marcel. I tend to agree. (And the number of threads was not what I was basing this thread on. I was basing it on active users on these threads.) The point I was alluding to is: Alpha should not abandon (as they "kind of are") fixing existing bugs in the desktop. They are so caught up in "chasing and expanding the web technologies side", that they seem to have forgotten about/abandoned the foundation upon which everything is based. ~ I was merely pointing out that there is still a significant portion of users actively using the desktop side of the forum. (Your hybrid statement reinforces this notion!)

                There are also several "features" the desktop still needs but doesn't have. (Particularly from a viewpoint of building "hybrid apps.") I was told by Cian that the old C-code (widely uses within the "desktop side") is a major inhibiting factor with regards to enhancing "the desktop side." Case in point: The concept of offering color coding (right click on an object and assigning the object's name a color attribute for organizational purposes in the CP ~ which Selwyn thought was a great idea of mine) can easily be done with the web CP, but not with the desktop CP. (Web panel built with Xdialog, desktop CP coded in "C.")
                Last edited by SNusa; 02-04-2013, 09:10 AM.
                Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
                It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
                RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Desktop IS NOT DEAD! (Forum activity reinforces this!)

                  Originally posted by SNusa View Post
                  Hi Marcel. I tend to agree. The point I was alluding to is: Alpha should not abandon (as they "kind of are") fixing existing bugs in the desktop. They are so caught up in "chasing and expanding the web technologies side", that they seem to have forgotten about/abandoned the foundation upon which everything is based. ~ I was merely pointing out that there is still a significant portion of users actively using the desktop side of the forum. (Your hybrid statement reinforces this notion!)
                  I do not think you are completely wrong in that assumption. My best guess is, that Alpha sort of has left itself taken away with their effort to develop "into the future" and forgot about the desktop. That does not mean they don't see the importance of it though. I think that is a way too simple conclusion and a misunderstanding. Alpha has hastened themselves in the last month to emphasize on the fact that they do not think the desktop is going away, and that the desktop will still be here for a very long time. We should however not forget, that Alpha is NOT Microsoft. It is only a small company and that does have consequence with regards to the resources it can bring up. And when resources available are more limited, the need for making choices becomes more apparent. Just as we, Alpha too can only spend the dollar once......
                  And there you have it: loose your connection with "what's coming" and you will become a Dinosaur and loose your company all together. That's not an option. You need to evolve, to spend dollars and effort to R&D that can make your products ready to cope with future demands. The downside of that is, that the dollar spend this way is lost for expansion of the already existing product. What might have happened is maybe that budgeting has not been done sophisticated enough to get the best out of all aspects of the product. But that can be an extremely complex thing. If you do not budget enough towards R&D you might not get there "in time" and loose the market after all. In this subject, Alpha has to operate as a cord dancer in the circus: it's an act of balance. None of this however says Alpha does not think the desktop important. I think they do. Alpha is not run by amateurs. Both presidents hold an MBA and besides that you can assume they have the necessary staff and external advisers as well. Alpha has been here for a long time which is not even typical for any software company. That in itself says something about the company. It is run by strongly motivated people who have made it work for their company for many years already which in itself justifies giving them the benefit of the doubt.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Desktop IS NOT DEAD! (Forum activity reinforces this!)

                    Yes Marcel, my exact thoughts. I've always wondered how many people are working with the internal a5 code at Alpha. From what I have seen firsthand, it seems as if Cian is the key (if not one of the very few)? ~ If so, he must "code like a madman." (I can't imagine this being the case, but he's the one always responding and coming up with the fixes to bugs I have submitted on a fairly regular basis.) ~ If he is, that's a risky proposition at best, for many reasons!

                    Regardless: There are still features on the desktop side that (to be blunt) do not work as they should. The browse is one example, and is literally "broken" in some usage scenarios. ~ Cian has indicated that when this is addressed (which is not so simple, as he has already briefly looked into the problem) he will let me know.

                    I've always wondered: "How many internal developers do you suspect a company like Alpha has?"
                    (Irrespective of this number, I'm sure they retain several additional "technology specialists/consultants" due to the inherent complexities of the "web-technology mix presently in use.")

                    Present "Race Results":
                    11 users presently browsing desktop forums.
                    6 users presently browsing web forums.
                    Last edited by SNusa; 02-04-2013, 10:12 AM.
                    Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
                    It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
                    RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Desktop IS NOT DEAD! (Forum activity reinforces this!)

                      Robert, I do not posses current information about numbers of employees, but even if I would have known that I don't see the benefit of putting that out on the internet. But it seems rather obvious that given the companies size these are not hundreds of specialists. The point I was trying to make was not "they have too few" but rather that the limitation of resources has consequences. One very sharp specialist however can make up for dozens of "specialists" in competitive companies. Like Lenny Forziati for instance, or Selwyn himself. It is not that easy either that all is concealed in the bare number of employees.

                      As a developer, like many others around here, I have learned to "work around" certain "weak points" in the total platform. Embedded browses are one of those weaker points. I have struggled for years with them and I have encountered hundreds of small problem situations in applications that had something to do with those embedded browses. Now, with v11, we don't need to put up with those anymore if we don't want to (for instance when the application is critical) because we can now use grid components on the desktop form.

                      Now Robert, if you have not yet experimented with that option yet (I don't know?) then I would advise you to do so even this afternoon since when you are now struggling with embedded browse related issues that ends then and there. Grid components are extremely powerful on desktop forms. And yes, some things require looking in to, and some things won't work. But in this case the glass is more then half full since what you get that actually does work is game changing for a desktop application programmer. Really worth diving in to.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Desktop IS NOT DEAD! (Forum activity reinforces this!)

                        I have not worked with the grid on the desktop. The problem I have encountered is relative to the "parent record setting only" being left unset on the browse itself.

                        This can cause the browse to not enable the scrollable region to display all records when embedded on a form. (They are there, but you can't scroll down to see them all as the scroll does not work. Nor will keyboard commands.) And when viewing an afflicted browse directly (outside the form): The ONLY way to see all the records is to vertically expand the browse display area.

                        Because this effects the browse directly (and is a consequence of a setting of the browse itself) I presume this may also inhibit using the grid as you suggested?
                        As for the "half full/half empty" glass scenario: I agree. (Also, this belief is ultimately why I still maintain an active "charter subscription.") That being said, my concerns have little to do with how full (or how empty) the glass actually is. This "glass" is huge to begin with! ~ It's the "container's composition" that concerns me. From a risk perspective, I prefer "elastic polymer compounds" to glass (plastic bottles bounce and don't shatter) any day of the week.

                        Being an entrepreneur, assessing risk factor is "second nature" & has become an integral part of my though process. ~ Because my livelihood literally depends on it. ("On the side", I've always been a technology & computer enthusiast ~ who almost made a career out of programming.) ~ Although I chose "not to pursue this avenue" (many years ago), my skills presently allow me to generate a secondary source of income. (Which is why I'm active here.)

                        Also: A large part of my participation within this forum s an attempt to make the a5 platform/tool better for everyone. Others (all too frequently) defend a5 and thus automatically view my posts as "negatives." (When I attempt to uncover & expose the weaknesses.) I find this absurd! After all, "they are what they are." ~ And if you don't expose weaknesses, complacency can be (and usually is) very destructive.
                        Last edited by SNusa; 02-04-2013, 12:18 PM.
                        Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
                        It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
                        RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Desktop IS NOT DEAD! (Forum activity reinforces this!)

                          Originally posted by SNusa View Post
                          I have not worked with the grid on the desktop.
                          Forgive me for cutting your reaction to only this quote here, it is not meant to be blunt. BUT. Take my advice for it and spend let's say 1 hour on creating a very simple and basic grid and put it on a form. This you can do within 10 minutes. Next, create another grid as simple as that. Will cost you 10 minutes again. Explore the row expander option by connecting the second grid to the first one. Will cost you 10 minutes also. Now, you are halfway your hour...... Amaze yourself over what you see there and spend the other half hour on what this could actually mean for your desktop application. You won't have enough time with that half hour.....

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Desktop IS NOT DEAD! (Forum activity reinforces this!)

                            Originally posted by mronck View Post
                            Forgive me for cutting your reaction to only this quote here, it is not meant to be blunt. BUT. Take my advice for it and spend let's say 1 hour on creating a very simple and basic grid and put it on a form. This you can do within 10 minutes. Next, create another grid as simple as that. Will cost you 10 minutes again. Explore the row expander option by connecting the second grid to the first one. Will cost you 10 minutes also. Now, you are halfway your hour...... Amaze yourself over what you see there and spend the other half hour on what this could actually mean for your desktop application. You won't have enough time with that half hour.....
                            Thank you Marcel. I will follow your suggestion! (Being determined to find the time to try and learn [and understand] everything I can about a5 is what "got me into this presumably "lifelong project/mess/journey" in the first place!)
                            Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
                            It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
                            RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Desktop IS NOT DEAD! (Forum activity reinforces this!)

                              My opinion from the newbe's world:
                              I bought A5 as an alternative to filemaker and its limitations (on web side)
                              I immediately sensed the power and the deepness of the web-side of A5
                              I immediately sensed the disorganization, misses of important features, little bugginess of the desktop enviroment (compared with FM)
                              I started 3/4 projects with A5 trying to use it as a RAD and I always rolled back to FM.
                              Found the right time, I started coding in a traditional way (code, not script), and few weeks ago I presented my first project based on A5 desktop. I'm still in the.. bug hunting and solving phase.
                              To cut it short, I think that desktop-side needs a deep work of optimization and general care. Just as example, consider that the script maker produces a code that is declared deprecated from A5 itself.

                              In the real world, I think that if I have to develop a software for a big real estate company, that needs to organize and share data between diferent offices and agents, between PCs and iPads, etc.. I need the power of webside.
                              If my task is a software for the gym at the corner of the street I need a good, bug-proof, easy to deploy desktop RAD.

                              So the need to keep the desktop alive is the need to keep alive the interest for a large, low-end target market.
                              You must keep in mind that a company that produce a software for big real estate companies will never move its own interest toward the corner's gym, instead a fresh company starting with software for the corner's gym will aim to higher level projects. Give to this little company a good RAD for desktop, and you will get a lifetime subscription. The alternative is the attempt to turn to A5 the half dozen of coders working in the classic medium size software company. Much harder I think.

                              Comment

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