Terminal Services - maximum users

[Tom Patten]

Hi,

I have my app hosted using terminal services. I may have 8 instances of the runtime running at any one time, with 2-3 users on each, for a total of 20 users logged in and running my app.

I'm getting complaints about speed. Has anyone got any data on the capabilities of Terminal Services. I have a call into my hosting provider to find out about adding resources.

What experiences have others had with terminal services and the number of users and resources provided by the hosting company. Are 20 concurrent users too many?

Thanks,

Tom

[micrafe]

Re: Terminal Services - maximum users

Alpha Five is a single threaded application. It used to be multi-threaded in v5, I believe. A single threaded application can only run in a single location (core) at any given time. Hence, it cannot use the other cores or processors.

In Performance Monitor, add Processor Queue Length and Context Switches to see if the system slowdown is caused by processes waiting to be executed. Looking at task manager, the CPU only shows what is currently running. You need to see what's waiting to be processed.

You can assign instances of Alpha to a certain core (processor).

[DaveM]

Re: Terminal Services - maximum users

tome,

are you running shadowed tables or trying to bypass that system and going direct.

Going direct, all the forms, reports, data, etc have to be generated and a lot of traffic is going across your network. If shadowed, you would only be calling the data across the network. It does work faster.

I have almost forty users on one of mine and about 20 are on there most all the time and they notice no slowdown. One of the other regulars on here has well over a hundred on his app and I believe they run 24-7. They also have the resources to handle what they need.

I do have another question: how is it you have 8 instances of runtime and 2 to 3 per instance? I just don't understand what you mean by that.

[Tom Patten]

Re: Terminal Services - maximum users

Dave,

You may have the answer to my problem. I thought when hosted on a server, using TS, each user constituted a "session".

My app is running entirely on the server. No shadows. So users are just "viewing" what happening on the server.

Do I not have it setup correctly? Where would a shadow reside - on the local computer or on the server?

Thanks,

Tom

[Ed Barley]

Re: Terminal Services - maximum users

Hi Tom,

I do not use Terminal Services, but look below.

Look at the below URL, it pretty much describes making a shadow from each PC that the runtime is installed on.

http://wiki.alphasoftware.com/Network+Optimization

Also called Network Optimization.

Regards,

Ed

[martinwcole]

Re: Terminal Services - maximum users

You do have it set up correctly. Each user can be thought of as a virtual machine.

Using T/S and Alpha you can assign different users to different cores - see the number of cores in "My Computer" properties. This will improve performance. (One way is to query the MUF file)

However, at some point you will need to set up a server farm - two or more subservers where groups of users log in to one of the subservers, and then you could shadow them to the main server, where the data is. It used to be in 2003 that you could only get about 12 users in T/S without significant degradation.

Also, a lot of memory is needed - say at least 1 GIG per user. Normally, you would NEVER shadow T/S. The degradation is not related to Alpha, it is the load on the system from having many sessions.

[DaveM]

Re: Terminal Services - maximum users

Tom,

I am not real familiar with terminal services(my fault- I should be). I have found a significant increase in performance with shadowed tables over direct as you seem to have it.

When shadowed, the runtime sees all it needs on the local computer and the "tables" are really a path to the real tables on the server. This way, the application is working on the workstation and just retrieving data over your network.

Without shadowing, every screen has to be rendered on the server and brought across the network(lots of traffic = time). everything that is done is the same way and so is the data from the tables.

Maybe that is why you would need 1 gigabyte per user on your server.

I have 4 gig on my dev machine and after loading 3 instances of alpha(3 diff apps), I sometimes get a message that system resources are thin. It happened today. I run xp3 so it only sees 3 gig memory.

from Wikipedia:

With terminal services, only the user interface of an application is presented at the client. Any input to it is redirected over the network to the server, where all application execution takes place.[1] This is in contrast to appstreaming systems, like Microsoft Application Virtualization, in which the applications, while still stored on a centralized server, are streamed to the client on-demand and then executed on the client machine. Microsoft changed the name from Terminal Services to Remote Desktop Services with the release of Windows Server 2008 R2 in October 2009.

[martinwcole]

Re: Terminal Services - maximum users

Dave, there is no "network" with T/S. If you have ever used something like logmein or joinme, then think of T/S as Logmein on steroids. You send keystrokes and receive screen refreshes. But there is no application on the client machine - only a "shortcut" to open the app on the server.

Everything happens on the server, not the remote client. Shadowing T/S would be counter productive, except in a server farm setup. I've been running several clients with T/S for several years.

One user may be in the next room, and another may be 1000 miles away. It is very very fast, if it is properly setup and with the necessary memory, etc.

[DaveM]

Re: Terminal Services - maximum users

I did understand it as you said Martin.

I was merely stating the difference with shadowed and non shadowed as per memory needs in my own way.

A decent sized alpha app on windows seems to use close to 80% of a gig. Since alpha on any server would be assumed to do the same, it should compute close to 1 meg per user.

My point was to use a server to do server work and let the workstation do it's part. It all depends on the cost of that memory needed.

I know that I can place alpha data on a server with 1 gig of memory and let 20 people use it with no reduction is speed by way of shadowing. Can't seem to do that with no shadow.

[mronck]

Re: Terminal Services - maximum users

Tom, have a look at this thread I started years ago. I did a major test in a controlled environment. It may give you some answers:

http://msgboard.alphasoftware.com/al...al+server+test

[DaveM]

Re: Terminal Services - maximum users

Marcel, How did the final test come out and which was the best scenario for your circumstance?
Thanks

[mronck]

Re: Terminal Services - maximum users

The test with power-users proved that a setup with a shadow on the runtime server worked best. We had the data on a multiple-disk storage unit, a runtime plus shadow on each TS-server and that worked pretty good.
In the end, the hardware investment is earned back because of the fact you don't need fat clients anymore and that also has it's effect on maintainability. Also other aspects chime in, like far better security because everything is concentrated in the server room instead of widely spread over many offices on many building stories.

[martinwcole]

Re: Terminal Services - maximum users

Shadowing is only productive if there are 2 servers. Mronks example had the user log into one server, where he had T/S, and then shadowed to another server, where the app was.

Many users do not have 2 servers. I doubt if Tom has 2.

None of my clients have two servers - T/S 2008 R2 and the app are on the same server.
One of them put in a server with 184 GIG's of Ram, and we have users use different cores - they have 24 cores.

I think Mronk's approach might be better, since management of T/S is managed by one server, and the app (or a lot of it by another.) But it is more expensive.

One programmer working with Cosco, who had a budget of 700,000.00 for the project, had 175 concurrent remote users. But they had a whole bunch of servers. They were still using Server 2003, as I recall. 2008 is much better.

[Tom Patten]

Re: Terminal Services - maximum users

Thanks for all the comments. I am not using 2 servers, one 2008 setup.

Martin - You mention that the limit was about 12 users for a 2003 setup. Any idea what the limit is for 2008?

Would you recommend 1 gig of memory per user for 2008 also?

Thanks,

Tom

[Tom Patten]

Re: Terminal Services - maximum users

So bottom line, how many users can occupy one server under 2008 TS?

IF I add 1 gig per user, could 20 users be logged in at the same time? 30 users? What is the limiting factor.

Thanks ~ Tom