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New Run Engine Question

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  • #46
    Re: New Run Engine Question

    From the Alpha 5 V8 web based help found at

    http://support.alphasoftware.com/alp...lpv8/index.htm

    Distributing Runtime Applications - Licensing Issues

    The number of users who can use your application concurrently on any network is based on the type of Runtime that you purchased. The people to whom you distribute the Alpha Five Runtime may not, in turn, distribute any copies of the Alpha Five Runtime. For example, if you purchased an "Unlimited 10-User Runtime", then a maximum of 10 users can use your application concurrently on any particular network. If you purchased an Unlimited User Runtime, then there are no limitations on the number of concurrent users of your application.

    The new verbage is not nearly as clear.

    Comment


    • #47
      Re: New Run Engine Question

      One thing I am curious about as how building the install would work now that the runtimes are limited by end user licensing rather than the developer needing the runtime installed on their machine when building an install.

      Comment


      • #48
        Re: New Run Engine Question

        From the Run Engine documentation:

        The Alpha Five Installation Maker is only enabled if you have both the full version of Alpha Five and the Run Engine version of Alpha Five installed on the same computer. To access the Installation Maker, start the full version of Alpha Five (not the Run Engine version), and select the Tools, Utilities menu from the Control Panel.
        Bill Griffin
        Parkell, Inc

        Comment


        • #49
          Re: New Run Engine Question

          Originally posted by NoeticCC View Post
          One thing I am curious about as how building the install would work now that the runtimes are limited by end user licensing rather than the developer needing the runtime installed on their machine when building an install.
          I would think this would work the same way as in Version 8. The difference will be that the end user will have to input a license id no. the first time he/she opens the application using the new runtime.
          "Ollie, remember how dumb I used to be? Well, I'm much better now."

          Pete

          Comment


          • #50
            Re: New Run Engine Question

            Originally posted by trackmanpete View Post
            I would think this would work the same way as in Version 8. The difference will be that the end user will have to input a license id no. the first time he/she opens the application using the new runtime.
            Yes but what about the single runtimes? Does that mean you have to re-create a new install for each user if you buy the runtimes separately?

            Comment


            • #51
              Re: New Run Engine Question

              Complete documentaion on the new Alpha Five Run engine is here

              It should answer all of your questions.
              Bill Griffin
              Parkell, Inc

              Comment


              • #52
                Re: New Run Engine Question

                Originally posted by Bill Griffin View Post
                Complete documentaion on the new Alpha Five Run engine is here

                It should answer all of your questions.
                Not really - the install maker part of it doesn't seem to have been changed much from V8 - other parts refer to an "Alpha Five Run Engine Installation Program" though...

                The way this is licensed now, it would make sense for A5 Platinum to just come with the Install Maker readily installed/integrated in A5. After all, the licensing is linked to and controlled from the RT engine copy on the end user's machine now, so there is no need for the developer to install the runtime on THEIR machine... In fact if you do this and try and run the RT, surely you'd end up wasting the license on your PC instead of the client machine?

                This way you could distribute your app to people who already own a RT engine or a full copy of A5 Platinum, but YOU do not require the RT installed on your PC...
                Last edited by NoeticCC; 03-21-2008, 08:49 AM.

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                • #53
                  Re: New Run Engine Question

                  Originally posted by NoeticCC View Post
                  Not really - the install maker part of it doesn't seem to have been changed much from V8 - other parts refer to an "Alpha Five Run Engine Installation Program" though...

                  The way this is licensed now, it would make sense for A5 Platinum to just come with the Install Maker readily installed/integrated in A5. After all, the licensing is linked to and controlled from the RT engine copy on the end user's machine now, so there is no need for the developer to install the runtime on THEIR machine... In fact if you do this and try and run the RT, surely you'd end up wasting the license on your PC instead of the client machine?

                  This way you could distribute your app to people who already own a RT engine or a full copy of A5 Platinum, but YOU do not require the RT installed on your PC...
                  Might be time for another visual from Alpha...:)
                  "Ollie, remember how dumb I used to be? Well, I'm much better now."

                  Pete

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Re: New Run Engine Question

                    Originally posted by trackmanpete View Post
                    Might be time for another visual from Alpha...:)
                    Or maybe my brain just needs a reboot... I guess I just don't understand why the developer still needs the RT installed and having run it on their machine, because if you install and run it, surely you end up having to enter the license key?!

                    It would be a good incentive for developers if the ability to build installs was just part and parcel of V9 - e.g. if the RT install setup was included in the Platinum developer version, the same way it is with PowerBuilder for example... After all the end user can't USE the app built with this without a license, so there is no longer any need for Alpha to restrict a developer's ability to build installs of their products!

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Re: New Run Engine Question

                      Originally posted by NoeticCC View Post
                      The way this is licensed now, it would make sense for A5 Platinum to just come with the Install Maker readily installed/integrated in A5. After all, the licensing is linked to and controlled from the RT engine copy on the end user's machine now, so there is no need for the developer to install the runtime on THEIR machine... In fact if you do this and try and run the RT, surely you'd end up wasting the license on your PC instead of the client machine?

                      This way you could distribute your app to people who already own a RT engine or a full copy of A5 Platinum, but YOU do not require the RT installed on your PC...

                      Since when did something that made sense have anything to do with the way that things actually work? :) The documentation tells you HOW it works, not whether it works the way you think it should. I doubt you would have to burn (use up) a RT license to make installs.
                      Bill Griffin
                      Parkell, Inc

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Re: New Run Engine Question

                        Originally posted by Bill Griffin View Post
                        Since when did something that made sense have anything to do with the way that things actually work? :)
                        LOL yes I guess that is a fair point!!!
                        The documentation tells you HOW it works, not whether it works the way you think it should. I doubt you would have to burn (use up) a RT license to make installs.
                        I guess I am just hoping the documentation hasn't been updated fully... certainly the fact that it still says "The Alpha Five Installation Maker is only enabled if you have both the full version of Alpha Five and the Run Engine
                        version of Alpha Five installed on the same computer."... seems to indicate that this hasn't been adapted for the new licensing model.

                        Attempting to get to the Install Maker in V9 also says the same, and explicitly refers to having to RUN the RT edition to be able to use the install maker... which doesn't quite make sense with the new licensing model for RTs... and would effectively waste a RT license on enabling you to build installs in the first place...

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Re: New Run Engine Question

                          I'm not sure that the original Alpha runtime pricing ever made sense, but neither does this new model. The whole "call us for pricing and we'll work with you" idea does not inspire confidence. I'm guessing that most of us expected the current model to continue but with an additional "bump" for client server connectivity.

                          The assumption now seems to be that "someone else" is picking up the tab for the back end licenses. So the developer who wants to create client server applications with V9 not only has to contend with "per seat" licensing cost for Alpha but also the "per seat" or "per server" licensing cost for the back end.

                          While it's true that it's easy to get free developer editions of the major client server back end databases, "free" goes out the window the moment that you start to commercialize an application and distribute it to others. Unless your potential customer already owns the client server licenses you can now double the base cost to install a new V9 application.
                          Finian

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            My 2 cents worth

                            Personally, I don't like paying for any kind of runtime.

                            I cut my programming teeth during the IBM hay day. Then you paid for the development software and that was it. Whatever you produced with that product was yours to do with as you pleased. Granted, the computer it ran on had to be able to execute your code.

                            The way I look at it, A5 should be able to price their product however they want. I also, believe that serious developers don't limit themselves to one development platform. Hell, I taught myself Ruby and Ruby on Rails at the tender age of 63! It took a lot of ginkgo but I did it. I can write serious web based applications and give them away if I want too since all I have in it is sweat equity. I did not abandon A5, I just added another option.

                            The guys that I partner with stick with the .net framework. Sometimes A5 is great for the backend and .net works better for the browser interface. We use Autohotkey for most of the scripts that need to do some pretty low level stuff. If we can't be competitive when bidding on a project with the tools we know how to use, then we suck up and look for something else to do.

                            The one caveat I see as far as A5 goes is this. As their product grows in features and complexity, the users that learn to use it to the fullest may wake up some morning and realize that learning Ruby, PHP, or any other "free" product might not be so daunting.

                            There are a LOT of choices out there.

                            I've always like working with A5 and have used it off and one for many years and plan to continue to do so in the future. I'm just glad that if I decide their pricing is a little rich for my blood, I have other options.

                            As I said, just my 2 cents worth.

                            Have a great day!
                            Tommy Thompson
                            Thompson Consulting Services
                            Beautiful Kentucky Lake, Springville, TN 38256
                            tommy@btthompson.com

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Re: New Run Engine Question

                              I APOLOGIZE for my outburst and thanks for not tossing me off the forum. 12:00 Midnight is not the best time for thinking in the right directions.

                              It seems one should read the documentation on v9 runtime(the pdf file). It is explained much better than here. Glad I did that.

                              I still do not like the per computer licensing scenario. If I want to put the runtime on 30 computers, I should be able to do so, but limit the users to 20 at a time. It seems that by limiting to computers instead of users, Alpha thinks it will generte more revenue. That is like the government and taxes. Lower the taxes for the upper income makes a better economy and tax base rises, lower taxes for the poor and the tax base goes down. Yes, I can explain those economics. If it costs more for the end user(my customer), I will sell less and make less to spend for future product. It is also one less feature to talk about in my presentation.

                              It seems to me that the regular runtime remains the same as before in the way it works for me, but the oem is for the smaller(mostly), possibly packaged, software packages that one would sell on ebay, in stores, tucows, etc. without the same costs as before and the ability to add user licenses in a "one or two more" situation is a good thing. Hope someone corrects me if I am reading it wrong.

                              I will call sales today or monday as time permits. I love the features of v9 and need the 20 user runtime and I just got a small bonus check from GM.

                              If luck/sales skills have it, then I may have sold another unit in the next couple weeks. my large app is put on demo for up to a month and sometimes as many as 3 months before a sale occurs. It is easier to put in a demo than to make a large sale cold. After data is entered and a tool is used for a longer period, it is an easier sale because the user got used to it and don't want to lose a good tool. This one has been used for 2 months. Now they want their own inhouse web page with a lot of abilities. Pricing will be a challenge for me for the web side.
                              Last edited by DaveM; 03-21-2008, 10:28 AM.
                              Dave Mason
                              dave@aldadesktop.com
                              Skype is dave.mason46

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Re: New Run Engine Question

                                Originally posted by DaveM View Post
                                It seems to me that the regular runtime remains the same as before in the way it works for me, but the oem is for the smaller(mostly), possibly packaged, software packages that one would sell on ebay, in stores, tucows, etc. without the same costs as before and the ability to add user licenses in a "one or two more" situation is a good thing. Hope someone corrects me if I am reading it wrong.
                                It sounds to me like you would qualify for OEM licensing too, at least for the apps you sell regularly, as opposed to custom-made apps. If you custom-write a desktop app for a client you still need the appropriate number of RT licenses for that client, but for selling a desktop app you built using A5V9 you would be able to get OEM licenses at a much lower price than the normal RT licenses...

                                Comment

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