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New Run Engine Question

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  • #61
    Re: New Run Engine Question

    Originally posted by DaveM View Post
    It seems one should read the documentation on v9 runtime(the pdf file). It is explained much better than here.
    ...
    It seems to me that the regular runtime remains the same as before
    I don't think so. The PDF says
    Each copy of the Alpha Five Run Engine that you distribute requires a Run Engine license.
    So the OEM is, as you say, for low cost multi-distributed apps. But now, the "regular" RT requires a license for each and every machine. In previous versions you only needed to buy ONE RT, and that could be used for unlimited applications for unlimited customers - subject only to the simultaneous connection limit of the particular RT you bought. Now, that's no longer true. As others have said, now Alpha wants to cash in on every installation and every application. I'm not sure that is wise. They would have been better off decoupling the SQL client-server from a "regular" v9, where the client-server might justifiably command the higher pricing schema. But I imagine they hate servicing multiple versions which is why older versions no longer get updates once a newer version comes out. We'll have to see what happens...
    Peter
    AlphaBase Solutions, LLC

    [email protected]
    https://www.alphabasesolutions.com


    Comment


    • #62
      Re: New Run Engine Question

      Originally posted by Peter.Greulich View Post
      But now, the "regular" RT requires a license for each and every machine. In previous versions you only needed to buy ONE RT, and that could be used for unlimited applications for unlimited customers
      Only if you were selling the same application to different customers - when custom-writing applications you were always supposed to get a RT for each customer:

      "...you are developing custom applications for various customers, then each customer is required to have their own runtime."

      ...just because it wasn't enforced doesn't mean you weren't meant to buy a new RT for a different customer... (And I do understand why the per seat licensing is necessary, because there was no other way of enforcing this)

      And if you do sell the same app to different customers then OEM licensing applies to you...

      Comment


      • #63
        Re: New Run Engine Question

        Originally posted by Peter.Greulich View Post
        I don't think so. The PDF says So the OEM is, as you say, for low cost multi-distributed apps. But now, the "regular" RT requires a license for each and every machine. In previous versions you only needed to buy ONE RT, and that could be used for unlimited applications for unlimited customers - subject only to the simultaneous connection limit of the particular RT you bought. Now, that's no longer true. As others have said, now Alpha wants to cash in on every installation and every application. I'm not sure that is wise. They would have been better off decoupling the SQL client-server from a "regular" v9, where the client-server might justifiably command the higher pricing schema. But I imagine they hate servicing multiple versions which is why older versions no longer get updates once a newer version comes out. We'll have to see what happens...
        does this mean that if you have a custom application installed, (and you then create another, separate, additional application for the same client on the same machines), you have to purchase additional rt licenses for the additional application? (I.E. each *.adb file requires a separate license?)

        Comment


        • #64
          Re: New Run Engine Question

          Originally posted by Peter.Greulich View Post
          In previous versions you only needed to buy ONE RT, and that could be used for unlimited applications for unlimited customers - subject only to the simultaneous connection limit of the particular RT you bought. ...
          I guess that depends on your interpetation of the V8 Runtime license. When I read "If you develop a standalone application to distribute, you may use the runtime to distribute the application to an unlimited number of customers again, only being limited by the number of concurrent users accessing the application on a network. If you are developing custom applications for various customers, then each customer is required to have their own runtime." (V8 Runtime License)


          I take that as for a custom app builder a runtime license must be purchase for EVERY LOCATION where you install it. Not unlimited applications for unlimited customers. For a PACKAGE or standalone application, (the same app on as many customers as you wanted), your statement is true.

          Maybe I hang around with one to many lawyers. :)
          Bill Griffin
          Parkell, Inc

          Comment


          • #65
            Re: New Run Engine Question

            peter,

            I am going to talk to sales today or Monday. It can better be answered then. If I have to buy a runtime engine for every install/sale I do, I am out of that. If I have to go to the per machine, I will think about it for a VERY long time.
            Dave Mason
            [email protected]
            Skype is dave.mason46

            Comment


            • #66
              Re: New Run Engine Question

              Originally posted by NoeticCC View Post
              Only if you were selling the same application to different customers - when custom-writing applications you were always supposed to get a RT for each customer... just because it wasn't enforced doesn't mean you weren't meant to buy a new RT for a different customer...

              And if you do sell the same app to different customers then OEM licensing applies to you...
              No, you are wrong about that. It was always buy one run-time. This is very discouraging.

              And yes it has almost wiped out my enthusiasm for Platinum.

              Comment


              • #67
                Re: New Run Engine Question

                Originally posted by Tom Mills View Post
                No, you are wrong about that. It was always buy one run-time.
                No - as has already been pointed out, even though Alpha had no way of enforcing this, it has always been illegal to re-use the same runtime for custom-written apps for each customer... At least in V8. Not that Alpha made that totally clear but the wording seems pretty clear-cut on this matter. From the RT Documentation/Guide:

                "... If you are developing custom applications for various customers, then each customer is required to have their own runtime."

                http://www.alphasoftware.com/shop/Al...roduct=runtime
                Last edited by NoeticCC; 03-21-2008, 11:06 AM.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Re: New Run Engine Question

                  Originally posted by NoeticCC View Post
                  No - as has already been pointed out, even though Alpha had no way of enforcing this, it has always been illegal to re-use the same runtime for custom-written apps for each customer... At least in V8. Not that Alpha made that totally clear but the wording seems pretty clear-cut on this matter. From the RT Documentation/Guide:

                  "... If you are developing custom applications for various customers, then each customer is required to have their own runtime."

                  http://www.alphasoftware.com/shop/Al...roduct=runtime
                  I can't argue* with the wording of the license agreement that you post, but I can tell you that it has been common understanding among the users of this board that the above wording was NOT the case. This issue has been thrashed out multiple times on this board and if you search you will find that Alpha never contradicted this (to the best of my knowledge) and may even have specifically affirmed it in so many words (although I don't specifically recall). Clearly, the new policy is a radical departure from the common previous understanding of most Alpha users that have posted to this matter in one way or another in the past.
                  -------------------------
                  *But, I suppose one can argue that those words merely mean that if the developer sells an RT to a customer, that customer now has his or her "own" RT. I guess it depends on what the meaning of "own" is. (Lawyers love this kind of ambiguous language)
                  Peter
                  AlphaBase Solutions, LLC

                  [email protected]
                  https://www.alphabasesolutions.com


                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Re: New Run Engine Question

                    Andrea,
                    I think you may be correct in how you are interpreting what the version 8 runtime documentation states, but the wording is ambiguous at best....and am VERY surprised the wording of this is as it is when all they would have had to do was to change
                    ....then each customer is required to have their own runtime.
                    to:
                    ....then a new runtime would have to be purchased for each customer .
                    Then the meaning would be as you believe it is.

                    Anytime something is ambiguous like this and open to interpretation, then it is up to individuals to act as ethically as possible in regard to what the meaning was intended to be. But mind readers we are not so when Alpha left this ambiguity as is then no wrong has been done by any interpretation is my feeling.


                    Later: Noticed Peter beat me to the ambiguous nature of the wording!! :)
                    Mike
                    __________________________________________
                    It is only when we forget all our learning that we begin to know.
                    It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.
                    Henry David Thoreau
                    __________________________________________



                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Re: New Run Engine Question

                      I would imagine that most people's misconception about the current (V8) license is what has everyone thinking that the new licensing model is COMPLETELY different, when it really isn't. If you go by the letter of the license, the only unknown is OEM pricing, and that wil be between the developer and Alpha.

                      In the end all that matters is the value that one places on the software and the time saved in development, and the value of ones own time. I do not develop apps for sale, but do so for in house use. I will look at each project that I work on and decide whether Alpha will be used or not. I will purchase runtimes as I need them.
                      Last edited by Bill Griffin; 03-21-2008, 11:28 AM.
                      Bill Griffin
                      Parkell, Inc

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Re: New Run Engine Question

                        Andrea

                        Thanks for pointing this out, although the interpretation leaves a lot to be desired. A contract lawyer friend of mine says that this wording is at best ambiguous, but the implication, is that a runtime can be included with the sold application as many times as is needed, as long as no database is used concurrently by more than the number of runtime licences purchased.
                        If It Works First Time, There's Something Wrong!!!

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Re: New Run Engine Question

                          Originally posted by ChrisHawkes View Post
                          Andrea

                          Thanks for pointing this out, although the interpretation leaves a lot to be desired. A contract lawyer friend of mine says that this wording is at best ambiguous, but the implication, is that a runtime can be included with the sold application as many times as is needed, as long as no database is used concurrently by more than the number of runtime licences purchased.
                          Yep, I guess since they had no way of enforcing it they probably didn't bother making too big a fuss of it...

                          But when you think about it, if YOU write an app and then sell it, you "own" the app and can use your RT license repeatedly, but if a customer contracts you to develop an app for them, it is your customer who needs to own an RT license for the required amount of users... You are writing an app for the customer and therefore you can't just use your own RT license for the finished product... makes sense to me although with the old licensing model a rather pointless condition...

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Re: New Run Engine Question

                            I have a 20 user runtime for v7 and remember nothing like this in v7 and back. Maybe I am wrong and broke the rules, but it was one of the reasons I am at alpha. I do not intend to build apps in alpha and give a friend a small app for personal use and have to buy any more runtimes for a freebie or for a church which I get nothing for. somehow, I don't think this is their intent.

                            Go back to vb where I can send as many or as few programs as I want and NO extra COST. may take longer, But I do have VB, Crystal reports and all the other tools needed to make redistibutable apps. Yes the basic programs are more to buy, but NO runtime issues.

                            I can't speak for other people, because Their backgroung would be different and their tools may also be different. we all use what we have to the best of our own ability.

                            I do hope Alpha straightens this out.
                            Dave Mason
                            [email protected]
                            Skype is dave.mason46

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Re: New Run Engine Question

                              Licensing for developers Building a commercial application

                              There has been a lot of speculation on the board in the last day about
                              licensing for developers building a pre-packaged commercial application that is to be sold to multiple clients (ie you build a gas station solution that you then want to market to as many gas station as you can.)

                              Our OEM (commerical package solution) license is designed for this scenario and will be very affordable and will allow you to sell to an unlimited number of clients.

                              Stay tuned for more details on this later today.
                              Richard Rabins
                              Co Chairman
                              Alpha Software

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Re: New Run Engine Question

                                I do hope Alpha straightens this out.
                                As do I. As it stands it really makes me wonder if I chose the right tool for the future....Like many here who have posted I will have a very hard time justifying upgrading to version 9. If the current runtime pricing is how it is currently written then I guess I may end up learning another language as well if the features of version 8 aren't adequate for future projects.

                                :( :(

                                EDIT: I see Richard has replied...here's hoping for the best!
                                Mike
                                __________________________________________
                                It is only when we forget all our learning that we begin to know.
                                It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.
                                Henry David Thoreau
                                __________________________________________



                                Comment

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