Re: Who else wants their A5 application to look as good as QuickBooks?
Looks like a bug to me in that case...
Originally posted by rmcgaffic
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Re: Who else wants their A5 application to look as good as QuickBooks?
Having said that, the form in question appears to use the lookup solely to provide a list of options - in that case, a record list combo box would be the equivalent as used by many apps.
Field Rule Table lookups are mainly useful when you want to populate many fields on a form, and allow the user to update the lookup table at the same time - in that case, having the row selector available is useful, and I am pretty sure many apps that use .net and similar controls have recently added these features (e.g. a record selector image in dropdowns), so I don't see it as a bad thing necessarily. When you just use an embedded browse to quickly select a record and view its details in the main form however, the browse doesn't need to be editable and therefore can go without the row selector.
I would love it if both were available for dropdown lookups though, e.g. if it's a read only browse you do the lookup in, then allow the row selector to be removed...Last edited by NoeticCC; 08-22-2008, 05:33 PM.Comment
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Re: Who else wants their A5 application to look as good as QuickBooks?
Hi Andrea,
Just a followup comment.
You are quite right that the issue is the visual appearance of a form when many lookup validations are required. If you have 30 lookup fields on your form, do you really want 30 little V buttons plastered over it, when the alternative is to display the V button only when the field receives the cursor?
Infragistics is one of the leading suppliers of ActiveX and .net controls today, www.infragistics.com
Screen 1 shows a old Windows form grid from Infragistics which is noteworthy for two reasons:
a. The lookup values display is done without row selector buttons, that is the values are displayed flush left. This can not be done with A5V9.
b. The lookup display is not as nice as what Alpha offers with its field rule lookup. Look how cluttered the browse appears with the multiple columns of V buttons.
Screen 2 shows a modern .net grid from Infragistics, which is noteworthly again for two reasons:
a. The lookup values display is done without row selector buttons, that is the values are displayed flush left. This can not be done with A5V9.
b. The browse grid shows the V button only when a field receives the cursor focus.
In my opinion, Screen 2 is what Alpha Five Version 9 should look like, just like a excellent, modern .net control.
I think I've done my homework and offer the following conclusions:
1. Alpha Five Version 8 had it right: no row selectors required in field rule lookups.
2. Leading personal financial software Quickbooks does not impose row selectors in its field lookups
3. Leading corporate enterprise software SAP does not improse row selectors in its field lookups
3. Leading .net controls provider Infragistics does not impose row selectors in its lookups.
Which of my earlier proposed alternatives strikes you as the best way to get there? I am hoping to gather some other user opinions before approaching Richard and Sewlyn.
Bob McGaffic
PittsburghComment
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Filemaker allows your application to look as good as Quickbooks
All,
I spent my afternoon poking arount in the Filemaker world, and would like to offer one more example of why Alpha might want to consider improving the appearance of the field rule lookup as previously discussed.
I came across a demo of an application called Core CRMthat shows that Filemaker Pro 9.0 gives users functionality similar to what A5V9 removed from A5V8.HTML Code:http://www.core2crm.com/video/index.htm
If you use the link and view either of the contact management online movies you will see that:
1. The field for Title does not display a V pull down button until the cursor focus is received, and then the list of available values is displayed without row selector buttons. The list display is aligned with the alignment of the field being populated.
2. The field for telephone type (son of a gun, my very example!) does not display a V pull down button until the cursor focus is received and then the list of available values is displayed without row selector buttons. And again the list display is aligned with the alignment of the field being populated.
Simple and clean!
The screen below shows a clip from that movie for the field telephone type, prior to receiving the focus the field was a simple type-in field, just like what I'm trying to achieve with Alpha Five V9.
A5V9 exhibits the following weaknesses compared to what a developer can achieve with FileMaker Pro 9:
1. The button on a combo box can not be hidden until the focus is received
2. The button on a field rule lookup list must always contain a row selector
3. If the field rule lookup uses a default browse, the row selector appears as a very hard to read black arrow on a navy background. The list is indented to allow room for the row selector button.
4. If the field rule lookup uses a custom browse, you are unable to hide or otherwise narrow the row selector.
In summary, I think I've documented four good reasons for Alpha to give us back this functionality:
1. Best practice of the leading provider of personal financial software
2. Best practice of the leading provider of corporate enterprise financial software
3. Best practice of the leading provider of .net and activeX controls
4. Competitor FileMaker Pro gives developers this functionality; Filemaker is now owned by Apple which takes good interface and product design seriously.
Bob McGaffic
PittsburghLast edited by rmcgaffic; 08-23-2008, 05:34 PM.Comment
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Re: Filemaker allows your application to look as good as Quickbooks
I wish I had the time to do the research that you are doing, but I am too busy developing database applications in A5. By the way, my customers are quite happy with the look and feel of Alpha.
Ted Berry
Iowa Park, TXComment
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Re: Who else wants their A5 application to look as good as QuickBooks?
Ted,
Good to hear that your clients are happy with the applications that you have delivered with Alpha Five. Client expectations are very often a function of other software they have used, advertising, web searches, downloaded demos, what their competitors are doing, what they may read in popular and technical computer magazines, external management consulting services from the CPA firm, contract programmers, etc. For many users, the look and feel of Microsoft Office applications define this threshold.
I do not mean in any way to suggest that A5V9 is deficient; we all know it is extremely functional. But I’ve got to tell you I’m not interested in just functionality – I want both form and function! And I think Alpha has the potential to deliver big on both.
A couple of months a forum member privately chastised me for being critical of Alpha after I made a comment something to the effect – how could they have let this stuff out the door. The issue was the mixed use of different slider bar styles in the same form, something akin to wearing a plaid sports jacket with chalk striped trousers. Ugh!!! I’m no GQ type, but I try to avoid such fashion faux paus.
Listen, I don’t have time to waste being randomly critical. And, no I am not picking on Alpha. I have spent the last twenty years of my career helping clients re-engineer business processes, benchmark, and use information technology to either maintain a competitive advantage or at least competitive parity. Along the way I have seen standards and conventions evolve and best practices emerge, that allow others to avoid re-inventing the wheel. As you may be well aware, over the same twenty years this has been accomplished more and more with standardized software, with many firms trying to minimize custom development.
I am not sure whether many forum members or Alpha team members have this background; it’s not better than the technical development route, just different. I am very much interested in creating/using software that is easy to work with and which improves a client’s productivity both directly and indirectly for such issues as error correction, training, etc. I would venture to say, I probably have worked hands on with more financial software than any member on this forum: Quicken, QuickBooks, Solomon IV, Microsoft Money, Microsoft Great Plains Dynamics, Sage MAS90, Hyperion, Lawson, and SAP. I feel that I do have a reasonably good handle on how such firms handle common interface issues.
So I am not presenting my personal opinion on some of these design issues, but endeavoring to document that they are widespread practice. When a forum member challenged me with a comment “who says so” , I provided chapter references to my personal library of GUI design books, and provided links to Amazon for ordering and full bibliographic information. I never heard anything further from him.
As far as wanting Alpha to be better? I realize that I shouldn’t give a shit. But I feel a little like the neighbor to a tadpole like a young Michael Phelps. If this kid had real potential, wouldn’t you want to encourage his parent’s to get the best possible swimming coach?
And so was the motivation in suggesting better design services for the Alpha web page, product packaging, icon design, third party manual book design, and yes even A5V9 samples, which are held out as the best Alpha Five is capable of.
I learned quickly how intensely loyal and protective many forum members are of the Alpha team. So rather than simply express a personal opinion, I have endeavored to show what other leaders in the marketplace are doing that might be worthy of emulation.
If you ever have listened to Garrison Keeler on PBS radio, you may know that the one the sponsors of the show is Ralph’s Pretty Good Grocery Store. (“Remember, if you can’t find it at Ralph’s, you probably don’t need it”). If you live in the midwest’s mythical town of Lake Wobegone, Ralph’s is “good enough”. For many clients, that’s all they want. But once they’ve been to Minneapolis or St. Paul, their horizons tend to be a little wider.
I guess you can say I am trying to encourage Alpha to take a more cosmopolitan approach to their product, to learn from the best on the market, and equal or better that. Every single one of the weaknesses I have identified, I think could be easily remedied. I am hopeful that Alpha's team doesn't suffer from "not invented here" syndrome.
I also realize that Alpha as a private company does not have unlimited resources and need to wisely allocate them. Therefore, I push hard only on the controls that I can’t replace or work around easily. If you visit the code library, you might be interested in a paper I wrote in using A5V9 with an activeX control to achieve advanced functionality impossible with the native A5V9 tree control.
I am trying to gauge whether other users feel as do to make a case to Richard or Sewlyn or whether I should just take my bat and ball home, returning to Filemaker. I have definitely noticed that the newest forum members (presumably new to A5) tend to agree with my perspective, while the veteran members are just fine with things the way they are, thank you.
Bob McGaffic
PittsburghComment
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Re: Filemaker allows your application to look as good as Quickbooks
It always strikes me as ironic (and somewhat comical) how some take offense at the constructive, if persistent, criticism of Alpha by others. Bob, makes well reasoned and impassioned arguments on an issue he sees as important. Indeed he presents well researched examples, speaks clearly, if not somewhat eloquently, and maintains great civility while doing it. He has cited five bugs that he presented to Alpha that they have since fixed. The squeaky wheel gets greased (although not always). That's a good thing. Bob has a sharp eye for detail. Not a bad thing. He fairly conclusively demonstrates how other leading software manufacturers treat detail with that same careful eye. Yet, there are those who feel the need to "defend" Alpha software from such comparisons. You can almost hear what they are really trying to say: "Oh no, don't make your software better. It's good enough as it is...Lets just hide our heads in the sand...". Whatever. Positive critiques, such as the ones Bob gives, helps Alpha become a better product. Furthermore, it opens the eyes of many people to see things they may not have previously noticed (including, perhaps, the Alpha Software team). This is very useful. I say keep up the good work, Bob (and others).I wish I had the time to do the research that you are doing, but I am too busy developing database applications in A5. By the way, my customers are quite happy with the look and feel of Alpha.
One other note by way of analogy: In totalitarian countries you can be sure no one criticizes much of anything. This is the very thing that so many people seem to want to embrace. How ironic.Comment
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Re: Filemaker allows your application to look as good as Quickbooks
Bob and Peter,
Sorry for sending a post that looks like I was being critical of Bob's work. I had a family emergency and sent the message long before it was finished. In my hast to get to the hospital, I hit the send button and left.
With the first 2 points being made that I wish I had the time to research like Bob is doing and that my customers are happy, the other side of the coin is that most of my customers don't see the things that I see. Alpha does have some areas of inconsistency that could be improved upon. I am excited about having someone in the Alpha community who has the expertise and the drive to bring these to the attention of Alpha.
I spent many years with Clarion and left them because they 'stuck their heads in the sand' and left their users with software that hasn't been updated for 7-8 years now.
Again, didn't mean to be critical. The point I wanted to make was that some of my users don't know the difference and don't care, but I almost always see the inconsistency in design. My first year with Alpha has been one of awe - first at how fast Alpha responds to their customers and second at how much can be done with these products. They aren't perfect by any means, but are better than what I am used to working with. Bob is bringing the small, finer things to light and from what I have seen of Alpha I think they will at least listen to what he has to say.
Have a good night,
Ted Berry
Iowa Park, TXComment
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