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Using the desktop on a VPS! - Problems...

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    Using the desktop on a VPS! - Problems...

    Hi all

    I have a strange setup that I need some advice about!

    I have a system which initially was set up as a standalone desktop membership system with a single user.

    This system now needs to be operated by 3 or 4 people who are spread around the UK and for reasons far too complex to go through on here my client has set up a virtual private server running SBS 2003 web edition. Each user has been set up with an account (as power users so they can see shared drives and programs) Most of the time there will only be one person logged in using the system but from time to time others may be logged in.

    The runtime engine has been installed as has the membership system. It is not a networked environment using shadow tables as each user is logged into the same machine.

    I have tested the system using multiple logins and it seems that record locking is working okay but it is clear there are issues with clashes needing reindexing on a regular basis and some strange errors which I cannot replicate.

    So I am wondering if there is anything I can do to minimise issues in this environment? If I could somehow run shadows I am sure that some of these issues would go away.

    Regards

    Glen
    Glen Schild



    My Blog


    #2
    Re: Using the desktop on a VPS! - Problems...

    Glen,
    I am not really sore that it can fly with multiple users using the same executable on the same system. How would Alpha discern who is attempting to do what?

    My guess is that there are 3 people who can take control of the system as remote users. Sort of like a remote control of the desktop. We have that available here, but to only one user at a time. If the remote machines are truly Pc's, then why not deploy the runtime to those machines and leave the local machine as a "server". I think that then there wouldn't be so much conflict. The "server" would just service the requests and process them in order.


    Tom

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Using the desktop on a VPS! - Problems...

      Hi Tom

      Thanks for the response.

      The "users" connect using Remote Desktop Connection which allows mapping of the individuals local drives so they can be seen by the server but not the other way around.

      Regards

      Glen
      Glen Schild



      My Blog

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Using the desktop on a VPS! - Problems...

        Originally posted by glenschild View Post
        Hi all

        I have a strange setup that I need some advice about!

        I have a system which initially was set up as a standalone desktop membership system with a single user.

        This system now needs to be operated by 3 or 4 people who are spread around the UK and for reasons far too complex to go through on here my client has set up a virtual private server running SBS 2003 web edition. Each user has been set up with an account (as power users so they can see shared drives and programs) Most of the time there will only be one person logged in using the system but from time to time others may be logged in.

        The runtime engine has been installed as has the membership system. It is not a networked environment using shadow tables as each user is logged into the same machine.

        I have tested the system using multiple logins and it seems that record locking is working okay but it is clear there are issues with clashes needing reindexing on a regular basis and some strange errors which I cannot replicate.

        So I am wondering if there is anything I can do to minimise issues in this environment? If I could somehow run shadows I am sure that some of these issues would go away.

        Regards

        Glen
        Glen -

        It would help to use technical and accurate terms when describing your setup. As far as I am aware there isn't a SBS 2003 web edition. I am assuming you mean you are running Windows Small Business Server 2003 instead of Windows 2003 Web Server. There is a HUGE difference between the two products.

        Your users are using the RDP to gain remote access to the server. I am assuming you have enabled Application mode for the Terminal server portion of the server. Default is Admin mode. In application mode the server OS will be able to differentiate the users and the copy of the alph5.exe that the user is running.

        For lack of better terms you are running in a "networked" environment. Unless the actual database files are stored on a different machine than the SBS 2003 machine the use of shadow copies will be unnecessary additional complexity that I personally would avoid. This environment is not out of the norm and there are several other people running A5 in a terminal server environment. I am currently running 5 users on my Terminal server and of yet have not seen the issues that you are reporting.

        If I am incorrect in my assumptions please clarify so that we have a clear understanding of your environment as the solutions presented will differ based on the environment.


        If I understand correctly you have 2 issues at hand.
        I have tested the system using multiple logins and it seems that record locking is working okay but it is clear there are issues with clashes needing reindexing on a regular basis
        You have an index issue where the index's are not keeping up to date? Does this happen to every index? Is it only some indexes? Does it happen all the time? Does it happen only after certain events or processes are ran?

        and some strange errors which I cannot replicate
        Hard to troubleshoot strange errors. First step here would be to document the exact error. What steps where performed prior to the error and then what steps where taken to resolve the error.

        The runtime engine has been installed
        I will point out that application installation on a machine running Terminal Server in Application mode has additional steps that are above and beyond a typical software installation on a normal machine. It is vital that the additional steps are taken in order for the application to run properly in a multi-user environment.
        Andrew

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Using the desktop on a VPS! - Problems...

          Originally posted by aschone View Post
          Glen -

          It would help to use technical and accurate terms when describing your setup. As far as I am aware there isn't a SBS 2003 web edition. I am assuming you mean you are running Windows Small Business Server 2003 instead of Windows 2003 Web Server. There is a HUGE difference between the two products.
          The server is running Windows Server 2003 Web Edition Service Pack 2.

          It seems that I may not have installed the runtime engine correctly, I am currently re-installing in the first instance.

          Originally posted by aschone View Post
          Your users are using the RDP to gain remote access to the server. I am assuming you have enabled Application mode for the Terminal server portion of the server. Default is Admin mode. In application mode the server OS will be able to differentiate the users and the copy of the alph5.exe that the user is running.

          For lack of better terms you are running in a "networked" environment. Unless the actual database files are stored on a different machine than the SBS 2003 machine the use of shadow copies will be unnecessary additional complexity that I personally would avoid. This environment is not out of the norm and there are several other people running A5 in a terminal server environment. I am currently running 5 users on my Terminal server and of yet have not seen the issues that you are reporting.
          I am not sure how to check if Terminal Services in application mode?
          Glen Schild



          My Blog

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Using the desktop on a VPS! - Problems...

            Originally posted by glenschild View Post
            The server is running Windows Server 2003 Web Edition Service Pack 2.

            It seems that I may not have installed the runtime engine correctly, I am currently re-installing in the first instance.



            I am not sure how to check if Terminal Services in application mode?
            This was the HUGE part of the difference I was referring to previously. Windows 2003 Web Server does not have Terminal server capabilities. Thus the specific installation steps I was referring to are null and void.

            Here is a link to a KB article regarding Terminal Services on a Windows 2003 Web server machine.
            http://support.microsoft.com/kb/282936

            I have never implemented a system using a similar approach to what you have implemented. It is very possible that the cause of your issues is because the server is running in Remote Desktop mode. This mode was not designed to allow multiple users to run the same application.

            Now that we have a better understanding of the environment we need to get a better grasp of the issues being encountered. This will take some troubleshooting steps from your end.

            Are you able to reproduce the errors on demand. If so, document them step by step.

            For the next part you will need to have access to the database using a file share. Using two workstations open the database on both over the file share. This will mimic multiple people accessing the database but eliminates the complexity of it being done thru RDP and Remote Desktop mode. Go thru your steps that reproduces the error, if the error occurs then you have eliminated the Remote Desktop mode being the issue. If the error does not occur, then I would investigate the possibility of re-engineering your environment.

            Another option to try is to post a sample copy of your database along with the steps that demonstrate the error. Allowing more eyes to see the error may give someone the chance to see the culprit that is being missed currently.
            Andrew

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Using the desktop on a VPS! - Problems...

              Andrew

              From the MMC Help file the following:

              -------------------------------------
              Starting the installation

              Use either of the following methods to install programs for multisession Terminal Server access:

              Use Add or Remove Programs in Control Panel (recommended).
              Use the change user command at the command prompt before and after installing the program.
              One of the primary functions of the change user command is to ensure that program files are installed to the systemroot rather than the windows subdirectory of the user's home directory (%homepath%\windows). This makes the programs available for multisession access.

              Before the program is installed, type change user /install at the command prompt to place the system in install mode and turn off .ini file mapping. The system then records how the setup APIs initially install the program.

              After the program is installed, type change user /execute at the command prompt to return the system to execute mode, restore .ini file mapping, and redirect user-specific data to the user's home directory.

              When the user opens the program, user-specific registry setting files (.ini, .dll, .ocx, and so on) are propagated as needed to the user's home directory.

              Add or Remove Programs, which runs the change user command, is the preferred method of installing programs. Enter change user at the command prompt only when you install a program by another method and want to ensure multisession access. For example, when Internet Explorer prompts you to install an add-on program, use change user at the command prompt to ensure that the program is installed for multisession access.

              --------------------------------------------

              When I initially installed the runtime I just ran the .exe file. I have now uninstalled and re-installed using the add/remove programs route as described above.

              I have now asked the user that reported a problem to use the system again and report back exactly what happens. Lets see what happens next.

              Appreciate your help so far.

              Regards

              Glen
              Glen Schild



              My Blog

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Using the desktop on a VPS! - Problems...

                I'm not sure about the web server version, but I have a client where many remote users are using the same app using T/S on server 2003 - no problems

                each user has their own session - thus their own global variables, etc.

                we've been running it over 3 years now

                fixing to move up to the new version of server - 2008 I think

                I know of one client (not mine) where 150 plus users are using the same app via a combination of citrix and T/S - with clustered servers

                given that the client has adequate hardware and bandwidth, this is a much much more responsive approach than running it as a WAN/shadowed
                Cole Custom Programming - Terrell, Texas
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                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Using the desktop on a VPS! - Problems...

                  Martin

                  Thanks for the response. I have been testing with two separate connections and indeed they are operating successfully in their own sessions. Have not been able to replicate any errors so far.

                  There should never be more than 3 or 4 people using the system at any one time. All but one are using pc's with the other using a Mac to connect.

                  Regards

                  Glen
                  Glen Schild



                  My Blog

                  Comment

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