Alpha or Spreadsheet?

[Larry Gordon]

Re: Alpha or Spreadsheet?

Greg,
From your initial post your requirement is easily dealt with by an Alpha app. I run my entire business on Alpa, from CRM to bank statements and accounting functions - and I am a doddery old man with very few active brain cells!

My advice is:
1. Spend a good deal of time planning and constructing your tables and then your look-ups.
2. Spend a similar amount of time planning and configuring your Set(s).
3. Then let the Alpha genie do the rest - quite literally in a few seconds. Alpha will automatically embed the appropriate browses and link the parent/child relationships from your sets.

Within 30 minutes from starting out, you will know if you have got something you can work with and improve - or if you need to start over again. My early mistake was to spend way too much time doing it myself, before I discovered that the genie would do all the hard work for me.

[kkfin]

Re: Alpha or Spreadsheet?

And Ken, your skill at integrating a spreadsheet with an SQL database can be very useful

I did not mention anything about my skills.

I use MySQL because it is far easier than Alphas way. I can plan databases visually, make notes and so on and then with few clics physically create the tables. When i have to modify my table(s) structure I can do it again visually and again with few clicks my MySQL database is uptodate. No programming no coding.

From what I can tell, Alpha Five is still applicable and is a very useful tool.

I totally agree.

The best part is its ability to actively (from version 9 plat) connect to different data sources.

[seaken64]

Re: Alpha or Spreadsheet?

The original poster has not revealed his level of skill with either database programming or spreadsheet programming. His questions seemed to be vague on this point and I maintain, that unless a person is fluent with programming they will end up with a better application if they use a database program like Alpha Five for this application.

Yes, certainly a spreadsheet can be used, for many things, including an entire accounting application. And Ken, your skill at integrating a spreadsheet with an SQL database can be very useful and many companies will be glad to pay you, or other developers, to make it work. My suggestions were not intended to denigrate the possibilities and capabilities of a spreadsheet. I was only responding to what I interpreted was a simple question about our opinions of which program to choose to expand this particular application. In the end, the OP may be persuaded by your argument and stay with his spreadsheet. But, after all, this is an Alpha Five forum and we tend to recognize the value of the database program for some applications.

I am not a programmer by trade. I run a small business. When I am considering a purchase of a full accounting system I have yet to be presented the option to run such an application on top of Excel or some other spreadsheet program. Most developers I have run into and most companies offering me software applications are using some type of relational database program to create their offering.

When I do my own programming to help me run my own business I may chose to use a spreadsheet or a database, depending on the application. Some things are just easier to accomplish in one type of program than it is in another. For me, I find it easier to do what the OP was asking about in Alpha Five. Although I did have to learn how the database does things. The spreadsheet is easier sometimes to understand. But at some point it gets unwieldy and I realize I will have to learn more about programming spreadsheets to go any further. I chose instead to devote my limited time to leaning how to use Alpha Five because the results I can achieve in Alpha Five suit my business better. I have a feeling the OP will achieve similar results should he decide to switch from the spreadsheet paradigm to the Alpha database paradigm.

And, I think it's irrelevant what era you think the phrase comes from. It's either still applicable or it isn't. From what I can tell, Alpha Five is still applicable and is a very useful tool.

Sean

Maybe you don't but many companies do. They use combination of SQL and Excel.
They transfer all the time data between this programs. They do for example tax plans in Excel and then send the results to SQL
Many companies using SAP uses also this solution.

If you develop a database program why don't you take advantage of the customers Excel. There it is almost certainly available. Using Alpha and Excel together (Active links) you will achieve things that are not possible with Alpha alone. And you will certainly make your paying customer a happy customer. Don't waste resources.(bad excel good alpha???)





I must say that this sounds to me like a phrase form 80's.

I use SQL (MySQL). I develop all my databases(SCHEMA) with MySQL Workbench (5.1) OSS.

Then I use Active links to bring the tables structure to Alpha. Then I unfortunately have to manually bring the referential integrity to Alpha sets. My data is in SQL table.

So do I use relational databases, tell me?

[kkfin]

Re: Alpha or Spreadsheet?

But I would never put my accounting system in a spreadsheet.

Maybe you don't but many companies do. They use combination of SQL and Excel.
They transfer all the time data between this programs. They do for example tax plans in Excel and then send the results to SQL
Many companies using SAP uses also this solution.

If you develop a database program why don't you take advantage of the customers Excel. There it is almost certainly available. Using Alpha and Excel together (Active links) you will achieve things that are not possible with Alpha alone. And you will certainly make your paying customer a happy customer. Don't waste resources.(bad excel good alpha???)

relational database

I must say that this sounds to me like a phrase form 80's.

I use SQL (MySQL). I develop all my databases(SCHEMA) with MySQL Workbench (5.1) OSS.

Then I use Active links to bring the tables structure to Alpha. Then I unfortunately have to manually bring the referential integrity to Alpha sets. My data is in SQL table.

So do I use relational databases, tell me?

[seaken64]

Re: Alpha or Spreadsheet?

I do a lot of stuff in a spreadsheet. Spreadhseets can be very powerful. But I would never put my accounting system in a spreadsheet. The audit trails and reporting needs are just too much, in my opinion, for a spreadhseet.

For analyzing a report and playing with "what-if" scenarios the spreadsheets are fantastic. But I don't think I would keep my budgeting application in a spreadhseet just because the spreadhsheet excels as analysis. I would still do my actual budgeting in my database and then output and exchange the data for analysis in the spreadsheet.

There are some very talented spreadsheet programmers out there and they may prefer to use a spreadsheet for almost everything. But unless the OP is a very talented spreadsheet programmer, my opinion is that he should go ahead and apply the needed time to learn how to make a positive change to his application using a relational database model like Alpha Five.

Sean

[Peter.Greulich]

Re: Alpha or Spreadsheet?

Or does that cost have nothing to do with the spreadsheet and it's just for maintaining the data in Oracle? But, either way, I note that they are still using a database to store the data and, presumably, the spreadsheet is just pulling the data from Oracle for 'display' purposes.

I would say the consulting work is for general custom programming of Oracle. I think it would be an oversimplification to say that the spreadsheet merely pulls data from Oracle for 'display' purposes. It's more like the spreadsheet & Oracle talk to each other and share data. Also, this company is a small international enterprise with offices in places like Ireland and China and wherever.

[CALocklin]

Re: Alpha or Spreadsheet?

I have a relative that works for a consulting company that can best be described as a money making machine (MMM). They have some amazingly complex and powerful spreadsheets - linked to Oracle. Reproducing those spreadsheets, per se, in a database would require a skilled programmer a year or more, I'm sure. As it is, they got an Oracle consulting company billing them 12K per week to maintain the damn database. Nice work if you can get it. ;)

Wow! That's 12,000*52 = $624,000 per year. So I would be willing to accept a mere $312,000 to reproduce those spreadsheets using A5 as a front end and they would have an ROI on that job of only 6 months - a real bargain - and I'd have enough to retire now. Or does that cost have nothing to do with the spreadsheet and it's just for maintaining the data in Oracle? But, either way, I note that they are still using a database to store the data and, presumably, the spreadsheet is just pulling the data from Oracle for 'display' purposes. That's a pretty impressive job but hardly the same as using the spreadsheet as the primary database.

[Peter.Greulich]

Re: Alpha or Spreadsheet?

I have a relative that works for a consulting company that can best be described as a money making machine (MMM). They have some amazingly complex and powerful spreadsheets - linked to Oracle. Reproducing those spreadsheets, per se, in a database would require a skilled programmer a year or more, I'm sure. As it is, they got an Oracle consulting company billing them 12K per week to maintain the damn database. Nice work if you can get it. ;)

[kkfin]

Re: Alpha or Spreadsheet?

Relational database?

There is a relation with databases, a link.

Clear to me!

[CALocklin]

Re: Alpha or Spreadsheet?

Don't get me wrong. If the spreadsheet works, I agree that he should keep using it.

And, yes, there are many ways to do something. Switching from one car to another is like switching from one spreadsheet to another or one database to another. But just because you've driven your car for years doesn't mean that you know how to safely drive a heavy truck with a loaded double bottom trailer. Nor does having driven one mode of transportation (the car or truck) mean you could successfully handle another mode of transportation such as flying a 747 or landing the space shuttle. A relational database is definitely different than a spreadsheet and when you are doing something that is significantly different than what you've done before - even if there are some similiarities - it's best to at least learn the basics first.

[kkfin]

Re: Alpha or Spreadsheet?

Well,

I can just tell my opinion. I did understand that the big problem was the number of columns. And I don't see there any problem.

The first database I used was Paradox 4.5 for dos. I still like it, but unfortunately I don't use it anymore.

I must say I just bought the software not book.

Best way to do? Best way to do a software? Best way to make a car? There are many cars. Which is the best?

[CALocklin]

Re: Alpha or Spreadsheet?

This just tells me that you have a system that works!

IF that is true then I completely agree with your next statement also:

Just tune it, there is no need to get rid of it.

Don't fix what ain't broke!

Since he is trying to convert it, I assumed that something was no longer working as desired in Excel. If that's the case, then my experience has shown that people converting from a spreadsheet to a relational database need to read up on relational databases before trying to create one or, as I said previously, they will make serious mistakes that will make things much harder for them down the road. Those "mistakes" - like the multiple columns idea - might be the best way to do it in Excel but not in a relational database.

Like so many things, the "best thing" is what works best for you. If what you have meets your needs, don't bother changing it. If you do need to change, be truly selfish by considering the long term and do it right - or be selfish about the short term and pay for it big time later. (My philosophy lesson of the day - compliments of my father.)

[kkfin]

Re: Alpha or Spreadsheet?

Greg,

I have been using a spreadsheet to track my actual expenditures sales as well as budgeted expenditures and forecasted sales.

There is so many people doing just like you. Analyzing and grouping data with Excel . And Excel is the number one product for this purpose. Every company uses Excel for this: Budgeting and planning. If you are using Excel for budget plans I can sure you Alpha won't beat Excel in this case.

date, forecasted sales, Budgeted expenditures, actual sales, and a series of columns (40 in all!)

I don't see here any problem. 40 columns. Excel can handle millions of records. For example If I make an 3 years monthly budget plan 40 columns are not enough. I can use many more.
I use tabs to group the data.

The big problem is the necessity to have 40 columns plus to track my checks

Try to group your data logically. Use tabs. Maybe 15 columns per tab, then you have 3+1(to combine the bank balance)tabs.

The sheet is quite dynamic since a change is immediately reflected in my running bank balance

This just tells me that you have a system that works!. Just tune it, there is no need to get rid of it.

I am trying to design something in Alpha to replace this system. running bank balance

Don't try. You will loose your mind. My advice is don't immediately try to develop anything. Start from little. Make lot of mistakes and learn. One, two, three tables, try forms, use browses examine, enjoy. I can sure you that you don't need any books. If you can use Excel you can use Alpha also.

When you save your Excel file that is Database in Alpha. Tab is table in Alpha. Column is field in Alpha. Row is data in Alpha. Data types : Number, date and so on: piece of cake. There is just few data types in Alphas tables available. In Excel you have used them already almost all. So they use just the same simple concept. If you are able to organize data in Excel you can do it with Alpha also.

Then later when you have enough knowledge you can maybe build an application which uses your original Excels spredsheet data directly from Alpha (A5V9 Plat) using Alphas Active link tables. Sounds difficult but is not.

[Greg Fong]

Re: Alpha or Spreadsheet?

Thank-you very much for your very thorough answers. I have played with relational concepts in the past but this is a real project that will save me a tremendous amount of agony. The spreadsheet is too cumbersome to use. Your experience with Alpha, has given me the confidence to pursue it further. The browse in the form with calculated fields has lit a lightbulb so to speak. I am now investigating the appropriate use of total to run_total in a calculated field. Thanks for the confidence boost!

[rmcgaffic]

Re: Alpha or Spreadsheet?

Cal,

You have provided sound advice. I'd just like to add that the problem with using spreadsheets is that they don't scale up and become progressively more awkward to work with. Even financial software today that uses Excel as a front end, such as OutlookSoft or SAP Business Planning and Consolidation, write the data to an underlying relational database.

That's why I recommended the book that I did to Greg:
1. It will give him the basic understanding of relational databases which
is easily translated into Alpha

2. It will give him a "roadmap" of tables and relationships to build an
accounting system that will get him off to a good start.

3. If will directly address how to effectively report and summarize his information.

The problem with 40 columns is next week it's 50 columns and the next week it's 60 columns and then the whole thing is too big to scroll through. You have to have a CAD printer to print out that many columns!

Bob McGaffic
Pittsburgh, PA