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build the sql database

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    build the sql database

    Have I missed something?

    Why can we not build an sql db in alpha?

    I think we should have a choice of:
    mysql
    mssql
    sqlite
    and maybe others
    and be able to design right in the tool that will be used for web or desktop deployment rather than having to have other tools to create and modify tables.

    Also, this should be where we can build the db right on a solution host, meaning, over the internet.

    I can do this with other programming tools.

    I posted here because I have quit the support for that other place.
    Dave Mason
    [email protected]
    Skype is dave.mason46

    #2
    Re: build the sql database

    Because Alpha Five is NOT a database engine Dave. It only uses a database engine in its frontend functions. It always had the foxpro DBF system implemented which was not their own invention either.
    That is the status. Now the WHY.

    Alpha has invested heavily in xbasic in the past. It did almost all of its tooling in xbasic. Later, .NET objects, Javascript were added. Those are all used to communicate with the database end of choice. And since there are so many choices Alpha concentrates on the front end, leaving the database engine to itself. Therefore, it needs a method where it can connect the users frontend products with many external databases. The result is, that everything inside Alpha Five is related to DBF and that THUS Alpha will always need a DBF between its front-end instruments and the used database engine. Hence, we have active link tables (which are DBF) and we have the option of creating connection strings to a number of external database engines. In this way, Alpha did not have to invest a truckload of resources into developing a completely different internal structure, or exchange its internal database engine with something more modern.

    I think there is some validity in your post, since FoxPro's DBF is a really old DBMS that in its core is very different from SQL since Foxpro is linear (non-OO) and SQL is an OO-based DBMS. The product is hang-up with its internal database structure way to heavy, which results in the impossibility to exchange the core DBMS easily. It would take tremendous effort to do so since everything (forms, reports, operations) is tailored to it. In fact I would say it is economically impossible to exchange the DBF core. Technically it would be, but it would take tremendous efforts to do so and in fact would mean a complete overhaul of the total product.

    Alpha has chosen not to (I don't think they have many other options) and take the sharp edge of some DBF problems. Besides that, they have moved towards OO-based tooling within Alpha Five as much as they can.
    FoxPro is dated back to end '80's begin '90's. So that is a system that is 24 years old!!! In itself, that is almost unbelievable if you see in what way IT Technology has evolved in the past 24 years, to think that you still work with something based 24 years back? So indeed, there is some validity in your thoughts. On the other hand, the system is designed in a way that almost ties Alpha's hand. They made an effort by modifying the FoxPro engine in several ways. They did what they could under the given circumstances. You can also see, that where they actually CAN make a change they WILL. But if your car is designed for a 1000cc engine, you can't just put an 8 liter v12 in it. The whole car is not build for that.

    The point is, at some point in time Alpha created its first product. At that time it made basic decisions and nobody knew the product would still be out there many years later. I don't know what influenced the decision to use the foxpro engine, but I assume the factors cost and rights have something to do with that. SQL became a standard somewhere at the same time (end 80's / begin 90's) so the technology was available. My best guess is, that the costly implementation of a SQL variety at that time would have made it impossible to market the product Alpha in the way it was planned. It was never supposed to be a corporate product, it was supposed to serve the SOHO market which it does until this very day. SQL back then did not fit into this concept.

    The situation NOW shows, that things tend to change and SQL is now used not only in direct competition of Oracle DBMS but also because of new products alike MySQL penetrated in the low-cost market. Alpha could not have foreseen that. It had to make choices, and those choices needed to fit into a tight budget. This all resulted in the implementation of the FoxPro engine and all that was left for Alpha Software was to make amendments to the engine as much and as best as they could. You can't change a horse into a zebra though, even if you paint the stripes on it, it will still be a completely different animal. And SQL has turned out to be more of an Elephant than a zebra.

    Comment


      #3
      Re: build the sql database

      In version 11 you can create table(s) in an SQL database from within the dialog2 component, its on the data binding tab.

      In version 12 it goes a bit further whereby you can create the database as well as tables create db.png

      Comment


        #4
        Re: build the sql database

        Nice examples of the fact that Alpha Software is leaning towards the borders of what is possible as much as they can: where it actually CAN be done, they will do it.
        Point however remains, that you may be able to create a table in SQL this way, when you want to do something with that table you will need to create an active link table anyway since Alpha can (f.e.) not base a report on a SQL database directly.

        Comment


          #5
          Re: build the sql database

          You could use Alpha Five to do 100% of your SQL database work using their SQL utilities on the Tools menu. But honestly, a database should be managed separate and treated as separate from the web project.

          alpha1.gif
          Steve Wood
          See my profile on IADN

          Comment


            #6
            Re: build the sql database

            Originally posted by mronck View Post
            FoxPro is dated back to end '80's begin '90's. So that is a system that is 24 years old!!! In itself, that is almost unbelievable if you see in what way IT Technology has evolved in the past 24 years, to think that you still work with something based 24 years back?
            Some time ago I noticed that there is a totally new product build around FoxPro. Interesting concept but without unicode support at the moment(I think).

            Comment


              #7
              Re: build the sql database

              Originally posted by kkfin View Post
              Some time ago I noticed that there is a totally new product build around FoxPro. Interesting concept but without unicode support at the moment(I think).
              If my information is correct Ken, then this product you mention is NOT built around FoxPro, but is somehow tied with Visual FoxPro, which is (although derived from FoxPro) a Microsoft product from 1992 after Microsoft acquired FoxPro. Visual FoxPro extended the capabilities of FoxPro to support SQL queries and data manipulation which FoxPro had not.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: build the sql database

                Originally posted by Steve Wood View Post
                You could use Alpha Five to do 100% of your SQL database work using their SQL utilities on the Tools menu. But honestly, a database should be managed separate and treated as separate from the web project.

                [ATTACH=CONFIG]35780[/ATTACH]
                I agree. But "the web project" does not cover ALL the functionality areas of a product like Alpha Five. There still is also something they used to call "the desktop". It does not always make sense to create structures where you need a separate server to connect the frontend with a DBMS. It's a high performance setup that in some situations equals trying to shoot a fly with a canon.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: build the sql database

                  I posted a similar request on ideascale many moons ago (when it just started). The number of NOs and negative comments I got was astonishing. My question is how long can Alpha keep clinging to the past and where is the the advantage? A part from speed and many other +++, with native sql tables one won't have to dabble with opening connection and closing connection. How many applications have been built with DBF tables in the last 10 years and how many will be built with DBF in the next 10 years?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: build the sql database

                    Certainly true Gaby. I doubt that many DBF tables will be at the heart of applications the next 10 years.

                    On the other hand, you must understand that in fact an Active Link table is nothing more than a definition. There is no "original" data in the active link table. It does not function as a regular table anymore, the data is safely stored in your SQL database engine. The active link table is just there to make it possible for other elements of Alpha Five to function without having to redesign the total of them. It is not really like Alpha is "clinging to the past". It is more that they carry their past as some type of ballast. They WANT to get rid of it, but circumstances PROHIBIT it. I think at this point and preserving the internal structures they have now in A5, it would take enormous efforts and resources to completely rebuild the product to be able to live without the DBF core. They don't have the resources to do it, and it would have severe effects on the products price for the customer.
                    They can only take small steps at a time towards the new visions which include more modern DBMS and maybe even native support for those.

                    That's one of the reasons why I think Alpha should set course to completely discarding the "old desktop model" which is based on forms and for a huge part ties up the product to the DBF structure. Instead of the old form based desktop, Alpha should pay more attention to WCD technology which could easily replace the old system since it is far more powerful and it would take them a firm step closer to being able to discard the DBF structure.
                    WCD is already becoming more important, but it still has some minor details that Alpha needs to take care of in order to make it more mature as a replacement for the forms desktop. One of those things being providing something simple as a "close"-button on the TUI which until now can only be closed by hitting the right upper corner cross. There are more things like that. Colleague Ken Nordin has made a shortlist of several of those issues that he thinks need attention. I agree with him. But those are peanuts. Selwyn could probably do it in an hour and still have time to drink coffee in between. Problem seems to be that Alpha has a bit too much focus on mobile nowadays. That's a pity.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: build the sql database

                      Originally posted by gaby_h View Post
                      A part from speed and many other +++, with native sql tables one won't have to dabble with opening connection and closing connection.
                      Gaby,

                      By "native sql tables" are you suggesting that Alpha build it's own SQL engine?
                      Peter
                      AlphaBase Solutions, LLC

                      [email protected]
                      https://www.alphabasesolutions.com


                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: build the sql database

                        Not build, just adopt what already exist, sqlite for expl which is free and serverless, and get rid of DBF. I remember seeing a very old post about Alpha considering using Mysql as its native tables.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: build the sql database

                          a lot of programs out there that you use to write your code have their own sql. That is usually a derivative of SQLite. They use it or a connection to SQLite, mssql, MySQL, etc. or you cane have 2 or three connections if you want. Maybe like MySQL and a different conn for SQLite all in one programming project.
                          Dave Mason
                          [email protected]
                          Skype is dave.mason46

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: build the sql database

                            Originally posted by gaby_h View Post
                            Not build, just adopt what already exist, sqlite for expl which is free and serverless, and get rid of DBF. I remember seeing a very old post about Alpha considering using Mysql as its native tables.
                            I think alpha is depending on too many different servers now. Add that to other reliance software and it gets way too thick. It would have to be SQLite or similar.

                            reliance to date that I know of(may be more): windows server(of some type), c++, .net, WAS, fileserver like apache, javascript, etc They are bound to some because of others.

                            When you choose your path with windows based systems, you have eliminated the luxury of anything that lets you be stand alone. You become a Microsoft slave.

                            Some can go to any platform/os because they do not affiliate themselves with micosoft or apple or..... Not to say it is the best route, but is certainly a selling point for them.

                            I agree 100% with gabby about the dbf tables and the future. They are done.

                            Marcel, DBF was not a FoxPro invention, nor Clipper, nor basic. Look up ashton tate circa 1980. FoxPro, like many others adopted dbf as their data source as did others. FoxPro managesd to put a great index with it that was wicked fast. That is why ms made the purchase. The index was adopted also by clipper and alpha among the many once the time was up.
                            Because Alpha Five is NOT a database engine Dave. It only uses a database engine in its frontend functions. It always had the foxpro DBF system implemented which was not their own invention either.
                            That is the status. Now the WHY.
                            Dave Mason
                            [email protected]
                            Skype is dave.mason46

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: build the sql database

                              Interesting thread. I think this is related to Alpha's hasty move into the "mobile" arena with V12.

                              I agree with Dave on the reliance of so many other pieces. I firmly believe V12 is incorrectly marketed as being able to develop "mobile" applications when one very glaring feature is missing - offline local storage.

                              Comment

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