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v12 Release Notes

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    #61
    Re: v12 Release Notes

    Originally posted by CarverRon View Post
    As Robert is suggesting, should we add more items for Alpha to fix for version 12 in this thread or should we start a new thread?
    Perhaps 2 types of request for desktops:
    1 Known FIXES due
    2 Wish list ( at this point I will be happy with just fixes)
    I think it's pointless to wast any time trying to get anything accomplished regarding desktop bugs. I don't believe it's on their agenda, unfortunately. (And it will be the $ doing the talking "sending the message home.") ~ I've submitted numerous bugs in January, and kept a thread documenting them for my reference. (and anyone else's reference who cares) Nearly half of the bugs I submitted were presumably ignored. (no response) I would love to be wrong on all this though. But as others have stated, I'm probably not.

    "Alpha is very good at following up on bug reports. It's not uncommon for them to get fixed (or at least acknowledged) within a day or two." ~ Almost word for word from sales last spring when I renewed. (And to be honest, that's the way things used to be.) Note: I always ask how clean the new version is. I'm always told: "This one is much cleaner out of the box than the previous one." (And then I get the same old story above, almost as if it was scripted.) Unfortunately, I've never really experienced this. And my recent experience with reporting v.11 bugs (last month) led me to believe that many of the bugs were already "known", and that my efforts to document them had been viewed as a mere "annoyance." (So I gave up and now have reservations & resentment towards my choice in investing all this time learning, using & supporting their product.)

    Honestly, I sadly think the best choice (for those who wish to pursue desktop development) may be to "just walk away" and look at other competitive products. (That's the underlying message I'm receiving from a lot of users here on the forum. Same thing goes for Alpha in terms of their recent responses to recent desktop related bug reports as indicated below.) ~ Regardless, Alpha (presumably) now wants to be know as an "enterprise solution" for larger companies. (I just can't see that happening. Not in today's world of MS shops on one side, and Linux servers on the other. But if it does, that would be great both Alpha, it's developers & the web side of their product! (Also, IMHO Microsoft is compromising it's own future with Windows-8 tiles gui. They were really on a roll with Windows-7. Windows-7 is probably one of, if not their greatest OS since DOS!)

    PS: At this point, I'd be happy with "just fixes" too for a5 desktop. ~ I honestly thought that was a given with my subscription anyways... (And I was told it was when I renewed it.) I've also learned that if you want to be productive, it's good to wait at least 6 months before even touching the "most current version." (Or you'll become the "guinea pig" That used to be OK for me, as was learning the a5 desktop environment from the ground up. IMHO, struggling like that really forces you to learn the hard way, but the right way. But it also takes a ton of commitment.)
    Last edited by SNusa; 02-23-2013, 04:48 PM.
    Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
    It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
    RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

    Comment


      #62
      Re: v12 Release Notes

      Originally posted by SNusa View Post
      Hi Ray,

      I'm so pleased other share my point of view regarding v.12+ and the desktop! Alpha could very easily appease all their desktop users/subscribers. (And if they value us, they will.) ~ It really wouldn't take too much effort! (It's not like we're asking for a lot of new things, just properly working things that should have been corrected long before now.)

      IF V.12 IS TO BE THE LAST VERSION OF THE TRUE DESKTOP, MAKE IT A GREAT ONE & "GO OUT WITH A BANG!"
      • Clean up the code & fix the browse. (They never fully accomplished this after recently moving to the new 1600 compiled versions.) ~ (It was not long ago, in version 10 that they split and were "re-writing" some code for the new compiler.) ~ The way I see it, Alpha just never finished what they started. *I could be wrong here, but that's how it appears to me.
      • Provide a "bulletproof" single "distribution .exe container" for portable/seamless installations. (This should have been "perfected" years ago.) ~ A container that contains everything except user data .dbf files (that would get extracted), in the event a developer is using .dbf tables would be a near perfect solution IMHO.


      If they're not careful (Alpha), v.12 is going to be extremely "painful" (for them) in terms of cash-flow...... Alpha needs "a Windows-7", not "a Vista."
      (and not "a Windows-8", either) ~ CLEAN IT UP & FORGO A FEW "BELLS AND WHISTLES!" (and release a v.12.5 with the "extras") They'll get my continued support that way. (And when I'm ready, I'll dive back into the web side with renewed passion.)
      While not in the same words, this has been said when v5, v6, v7, v8, v9, v10 and v11 were about to be released. Not to find fault with Alpha, but nothing was not to clean up the older versions. It boils down to priorities and $$$. My gut feeling is that Alpha will incorporate the desktop with the web by making the web features fit on the desktop. It may even be that a grid will be created to emulate the desktop. and you call other grids for it. For me, that would be fine. No, it would be fabulous.

      As far as the v11 features to be released, if Alpha didn't say it, they certainly implied it and still are. Attached is an example, that's if I can get it attached. If not, go to the Documentation, filter with Alpha Five File Types and then scroll towards the bottom. While it's not a promise to release, it sure is an implication.
      Attached Files
      Last edited by forskare; 02-23-2013, 04:26 PM.
      TYVM :) kenn

      Knowing what you can achieve will not become reality until you imagine and explore.

      Comment


        #63
        Re: v12 Release Notes

        Originally posted by forskare View Post
        If not, go to the Documentation, filter with Alpha Five File Types and then scroll towards the bottom. While it's not a promise to release, it sure is an implication.
        You lost me, Ken?
        A5 File types.gif
        Peter
        AlphaBase Solutions, LLC

        [email protected]
        https://www.alphabasesolutions.com


        Comment


          #64
          Re: v12 Release Notes

          Originally posted by Peter.Greulich View Post
          You lost me, Ken?
          [ATTACH=CONFIG]34843[/ATTACH]

          OOOOOps, Sorry

          Open the documentation and enter Mobile, select Components for Mobile (Top of list) Ta Daaa
          TYVM :) kenn

          Knowing what you can achieve will not become reality until you imagine and explore.

          Comment


            #65
            Re: v12 Release Notes

            One other thing I just thought about regarding Alpha's desktop: Alpha also made reference to an Xbasic compiler (for the desktop/runtime) which was planned and in the works. (So by their own admission, they either either misled customers to sell subscriptions, or they still have plans for desktop evolution.)

            Here's the link, still on the wiki: http://wiki.alphasoftware.com/Road+M...+in+Version+11
            (posted by mheller. Last Modification: Wednesday 13 of July, 2011 10:08:16 CDT by mheller.)

            Without doubt, people (including myself) were purchasing subscriptions based on these statements.
            ~Also notice the plans for a second release (Release 2) of v.11. (Was there a v.11 Release 2? If so, I missed it completely.)

            Road Map for Alpha Five Version 11
            This document should answer your basic questions about how we see V11 developing over time.
            Initial Release

            Early fall
            Same 3 SKUs as V10.5: Full development system, Runtimes for LAN use, and Application Server for Web use
            V11 purchases, upgrades from previous versions, bundles, and subscriptions will be available.
            The new features of V11 are discussed in What's New in Version 11.

            Release 2

            A few months after the initial release of V11
            Introduces a new Microsoft IIS-based Web Server with vastly increased scalability for Web use, as an additional SKU.
            We are attempting to document all programming changes that will be needed for both V11 releases in time for the Initial Release, so that you don't have to change your Web applications twice.

            New Feature Packs
            These are still to be determined.
            Futures
            These items are speculations and indications of effort, and not promises of future product delivery.

            We expect to stop selling the Xbasic Application Server in the V12 time frame, once the IIS-based Web Server has been fully tested in production.
            We expect an Xbasic compiler to become available in the V12 time frame. Preliminary experiments with this are very promising in terms of run-time performance, but there are many obstacles to incorporating this into a production system.
            Selling "prepaid" $1000+ subscriptions while making public statements of intent & speculations like this, I certainly think they have some future v.12 desktop "obligations." ~ Don't you? (And if they don't, they've compromised credibility.)

            Note: Some of you may think that I'm "rocking the boat" here. Being the a5 customer, I see things the "other way around." ~ Alpha disclosed this v.11 Road Map over a year and a half ago. (And as of right now, it is still displaying on their wiki. ~ It hasn't been updated since.)
            Last edited by SNusa; 02-23-2013, 10:35 PM.
            Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
            It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
            RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

            Comment


              #66
              Re: v12 Release Notes

              Yes, there really is quite a bit that needs to be released for v11. We have no control over what Alpha does so all we can do is to wish them the best and cheer them on.

              Note: Some of you may think that I'm "rocking the boat" here. Being the a5 customer, I see things the "other way around." ~ Alpha disclosed this v.11 Road Map over a year and a half ago. (And as of right now, it is still displaying on their wiki. ~ It hasn't been updated since.)
              Year and a half, that ain't bad. I found "What's new in v6" in the documentation earlier today.

              Did you see this at the bottom of the link you posted?

              Futures
              These items are speculations and indications of effort, and not promises of future product delivery.

              We expect to stop selling the Xbasic Application Server in the V12 time frame, once the IIS-based Web Server has been fully tested in production.
              We expect an Xbasic compiler to become available in the V12 time frame. Preliminary experiments with this are very promising in terms of run-time performance, but there are many obstacles to incorporating this into a production system.
              Last edited by forskare; 02-23-2013, 11:17 PM.
              TYVM :) kenn

              Knowing what you can achieve will not become reality until you imagine and explore.

              Comment


                #67
                Re: v12 Release Notes

                Yes Ken, I did. ~ And the Xbasic compiler statement creates hope......

                What developers need (and should expect) are updates regarding things like this.
                Otherwise, if and when plans change: We are left with "false expectations."
                Last edited by SNusa; 02-24-2013, 03:08 AM.
                Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
                It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
                RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

                Comment


                  #68
                  Re: v12 Release Notes

                  One thing I noticed as we browsed through the records is how darn FAST Desktop is compared to web. You cannot scroll pages and do lookups nearly as fast in web environment. This, even though they are on DBF tables.
                  I would take issue with this statement regarding speed of access to data. I am doing some testing on a web app built using SQL Server back end I haven't a clue what the front end is but it's not Alpha. The speed even over a VPN is tremendous. Now I suspect that the design and pre fetch might have a lot to do with the performance.
                  Using Alpha and TOAD to access the data on the SQL Server is also very, very different in preformance. TOAD is a lot faster than Alpha when searching and sorting, but it doesn't have the capabilities for presentation and proving joins/subtractions/intersections so nicely.
                  It seems like the Web hosted database access layer in Alpha could do with being speeded up somehow to give a comparable performance.
                  If you try accessing an app on a single local PC in DT or WAS mode you will notice a remakable difference, so I can only presume it's the access and presentation layer that is so very different.
                  See our Hybrid Option here;
                  https://hybridapps.example-software.com/


                  Apologies to anyone I haven't managed to upset yet.
                  You are held in a queue and I will get to you soon.

                  Comment


                    #69
                    Re: v12 Release Notes

                    Yep, my term "web" is too broad. Totally agree we should investigate. I use Navicat and it is lightning fast, but really a desktop app. Another developer (a Newbee) said that when he shifted from AlphaDAO to ODBC, the performance greatly increased. Someone needs to investigat that for sure!! I am nearly positive there is something to lose when not using AlphaDAO (like maybe portable SQL) but I am not sure.
                    Steve Wood
                    See my profile on IADN

                    Comment


                      #70
                      Re: v12 Release Notes

                      Tried both Steve. ODBC is better as suggested.
                      See our Hybrid Option here;
                      https://hybridapps.example-software.com/


                      Apologies to anyone I haven't managed to upset yet.
                      You are held in a queue and I will get to you soon.

                      Comment


                        #71
                        Re: v12 Release Notes

                        Originally posted by Steve Wood View Post
                        Yep, my term "web" is too broad. Totally agree we should investigate. I use Navicat and it is lightning fast, but really a desktop app. Another developer (a Newbee) said that when he shifted from AlphaDAO to ODBC, the performance greatly increased. Someone needs to investigat that for sure!! I am nearly positive there is something to lose when not using AlphaDAO (like maybe portable SQL) but I am not sure.
                        Hey guys, just a heads up on this....

                        Back in January, when I submitted several browse related bugs. (and remained persistent & "vigilant"): I was told (by Cian) that "they" didn't have time to adequately address and correct the browse issues/bugs (they were not an "easy fix", and they would spend time addressing the problems later) because they were working on enhancing SQL performance. (Thought you might like to know.)

                        Another important (possibly related note) is:
                        I used to work with ASP & connections to both access and SQL databases (10 years ago.) Due to the threading model, it was extremely important to use an OLE Jet connection as opposed to ODBC. (I have no idea why, but it was extremely crucial for both performance and data integrity.) In fact, I believe that's why they (MS) may have created/developed an OLE Jet database connection (different from a standard ODBC connection) in the first place? ~ Maybe this is something that has been completely overlooked by Alpha when they created AlphaDAO? (I mentioned this here in the forums about a year ago when everyone was complaining about MS Access database connection performance..... Nobody really knew what I was talking about, but I know for a fact that using/choosing the right connection string is/was paramount, at least for an Access mdb. And to do otherwise, presented data integrity issues!)
                        Last edited by SNusa; 02-24-2013, 10:11 AM.
                        Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
                        It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
                        RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

                        Comment


                          #72
                          Re: v12 Release Notes

                          Originally posted by SNusa View Post
                          Hey guys, just a heads up on this....

                          Back in January, when I submitted browse related bugs. (and remained persistent & "vigilant"): I was told (by Cian) that "they" didn't have time to adequately address and correct the browse issues/bugs (not an easy fix, and they would spend time on the problems later) because they were working on enhancing SQL performance. (Thought you might like to know.)
                          There are (and have always been!) several issues with the embedded browse on the desktop, and the most severe of them are related to stability issues. I am not even sure if they are ABLE to correct these issues as they may very well be embedded in the underlaying technology. I don't know if anyone of you has ever bothered to look into "the credits" of A5, but there is A LOT of third party software implemented in the product. If any of the issues is caused by those components then Alpha has no control whatever over the repair of those issues and can only "request" with the initial supplier. And who says they still even exist. As an example I clearly remember the issues I once had to get ANY response WHATEVER from the third party supplier of the built in graph features in Alpha. I am not sure where the embedded browse comes from and what it is based on. I do know that the issues with it are almost as old as Stonehenge and really guys, if Alpha had been able to address it to begin with wouldn't they have done so a looooooong time ago?
                          So my best guess is: they are not able to.

                          This is at this point in time not even that bad, since I really believe the path for Alpha Five should lead away from the current "desktop-technology-collection-basket" that is not coherent, not consistent, and not stable enough. It is really yesterdays technology and we all should not be pressing that hard for Alpha to invest any more in this ancient approach.

                          However, you can't throw your old shoes away before you have your new ones or risk to run on bear feet. That's the other side of the medal. And the "web component technology" is still not capable of addressing all needs one has for running a desktop application. Unfortunately, even "working preview" mode may very well disappear in v12 because of a new view/new approach on "live preview". What that means for running the components on the desktop is no even clear yet if I must believe the person I spoke about that at Customer Service, which I do by the way since he is one of the more skilled technicians at Alpha.
                          Yes, I know what I just said. I just did not wanted to keep it from you guys. It indeed puts Alpha's future still more into a smoke curtain as it already was.

                          I can only say, the as far as I am concerned I am all for leaving the desktop to sink to the dept of time with pride, and move forward to a new technology hopefully based on the web component technology. I have expressed that more then once here, it is not my intent to bore you with repeating statements.

                          These items are speculations and indications of effort, and not promises of future product delivery.
                          We expect to stop selling the Xbasic Application Server in the V12 time frame, once the IIS-based Web Server has been fully tested in production.
                          We expect an Xbasic compiler to become available in the V12 time frame. Preliminary experiments with this are very promising in terms of run-time performance, but there are many obstacles to incorporating this into a production system.
                          Well Robert, does this not say it all? You can kick against Alpha as much as you want, but the statement above is very clear. It speaks of intent, not of quarantee or even promise. If you nevertheless construct that idea from it, that really is your personal interpretation and should maybe seen more as "wishful thinking". You can't blame Alpha for your own wishful thinking....

                          As far as the subscription goes, again, this is not mandatory yet. And if we should believe Selwyn, it never ever will. There will always be an "a la carte" option. So it really was and is to this very day your own choice to enter into a subscription OR NOT. It's your decision really. You could have waited until you got proof that what you wanted out of it was really in the package. You did not.
                          I am not saying entering the subscription is a bad move. Not at all. I think it all depends on your situation really. What you need and use, and how the cost of purchasing that in "a la carte" fashion weighs up against any subscription system. For me, at this point, subscription is out of the question. When this changes however, I will be in it.

                          I have been around with Alpha's products for a very long time now. There have always been guys that would applaud at everything Alpha did, and there have always been guys that always criticized everything that Alpha did. I would like to point out, that most of the time, the truth can be found somewhere in the middle.

                          Furthermore, we must understand that whilst we CAN (and maybe SHOULD) make a "wishlist" this really comes way too late to be included in the v12 release. This release is way too far down the road to change plans or make drastic changes in course right now. So don't get your hopes up too high about this. Furthermore, I do not expect Alpha to be much interested in it either. They have their plans set so it seems and are at full speed at delivering them as they have planned. I do not expect them to hit the brakes now and turn to us for advice on how their release should maybe look like just before they actually had plans to release it already.
                          Would this have been the case, they would have reacted here already since I am sure at least someone at Alpha is following these kind of threads closely regardless of what we may think.

                          Comment


                            #73
                            Re: v12 Release Notes

                            I don't disagree with your logic one bit Marcel. What I was stating is I made subscription decisions both on their "disclosed intent" and things that were explicitly stated by the Alpha sales department. As agency law prevails, technically Alpha is accountable to promises made by their sales agents. I invested a lot of time in Alpha based on what I was told, and information that was put on their websites.

                            Had the sales department told me Alpha was not going to continue debugging the desktop side (or that the desktop side was destined to become obsolete) I would not have spent thousands of dollars & hundreds of hours studying and learning it. (In fact, I probably would have chosen Real Studio instead, although at the time a subscription first became available I did not even know about it.) In the end, I did "dig in deep" with Alpha and became a "Charter Subscriber" (which gave me the extra push). I chose this path based on 1.) What what Alpha used to be (I dabbled with it for years), 2.) What I had read in the marketing materials, and 3.) What I was being explicitly told by their sales department as they "aggressively chased" subscription sales.

                            I've already been the web route, and am not overly interested in that path at present. ~ The diversity & complexities of web development are so deep and inter-wound that to develop a thorough understanding of "it all", is virtually impossible! (Unless you make it a lifetime goal.) Unfortunately, I'm never satisfied in "just knowing that something works." I have to fully understand it, and know "why it works." (That's the way I have always approached technology.) ~ So from my perspective: To pursue the web development side of a5 kind of puts me in a "no-win scenario."

                            If the desktop is discontinued, there's no getting around the notion that I was misled. (And I'm sure there are many others in this "same boat.")
                            Last edited by SNusa; 02-24-2013, 11:09 AM.
                            Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
                            It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
                            RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

                            Comment


                              #74
                              Re: v12 Release Notes

                              Yes, Steve I agree, new ideas are required. As a developer (in DOS) since 1990 using mainly SAGE's Retrieve 4GL (anyone heard of it ?) it had a number of advances that I believe Alpha would benefit from (learn from) as follows:
                              A program was made up of a header containing: the files (tables) being used, the screens referenced, the report layouts used, program variables, index criteria (outside the tables), common area. The number of functions it had was about 225 which included reading external files, print verbs so each line could be controlled, display screens (forms) so each could be controlled whether by browse, data input and much more. The screens (frames) and reports were defined using a a seperate developer option and identified by name. The whole was compiled so it executed quickly but a 'debug' option allowed the developer to see the program as it ran. There were no sets - the program code determined the relationships between tables which gave great flexibility. Multiple companies could be handled easily. Security was handled on login. Spooler, so prints might be seen before printing. Manager login with password allowed users to be defined with Printer definition, Data Maps, Utilities, External update, Main menu.
                              If anyone would like more detail I would be pleased to oblige, as program development was a delight - compare a painter painting by numbers against a painter with a huge blank canvas.

                              Comment


                                #75
                                Re: v12 Release Notes

                                Originally posted by NJG166 View Post
                                Yes, Steve I agree, new ideas are required. As a developer (in DOS) since 1990 using mainly SAGE's Retrieve 4GL (anyone heard of it ?) it had a number of advances that I believe Alpha would benefit from (learn from) as follows:
                                A program was made up of a header containing: the files (tables) being used, the screens referenced, the report layouts used, program variables, index criteria (outside the tables), common area. The number of functions it had was about 225 which included reading external files, print verbs so each line could be controlled, display screens (forms) so each could be controlled whether by browse, data input and much more. The screens (frames) and reports were defined using a a seperate developer option and identified by name. The whole was compiled so it executed quickly but a 'debug' option allowed the developer to see the program as it ran. There were no sets - the program code determined the relationships between tables which gave great flexibility. Multiple companies could be handled easily. Security was handled on login. Spooler, so prints might be seen before printing. Manager login with password allowed users to be defined with Printer definition, Data Maps, Utilities, External update, Main menu.
                                If anyone would like more detail I would be pleased to oblige, as program development was a delight - compare a painter painting by numbers against a painter with a huge blank canvas.
                                Interesting that you made this reference to sets (or a lack thereof.) ~ Somewhere (very recently) I encountered a post (on this forum) that mentioned a "vision" that Alpha had, regarding "set-less" web development.

                                As for SAGE, I used to debug Dac-Easy accounting (gratis) prior to it being acquired by Sage. That began when I began uncovering data integrity issues in my live business data! Once they moved to a "Btrieve database engine" (related to Retrieve?), these issues eventually (for the most part) disappeared. (Sage also presently sells Peachtree which I don't care for whatsoever.) Being a customer of their products I found Sage to be extremely "unforgiving" with regards to customer support. ~ You had to pay several hundreds of dollars just to log into their support forums for the accounting packages. (an additional fee after purchasing $500+ software modules) They were also ruthless with regards to locking users into their own merchant credit card processing. Needless to say, I no longer use their products. What totally killed Dac-Easy accounting & POS (for me) was their lack of support for bank transaction downloads. (Intuit has a "lock" on that here in the US.) ~ I'm not familiar with the other SAGE product you mentioned, but it sounds interesting!
                                Last edited by SNusa; 02-24-2013, 11:29 AM.
                                Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
                                It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
                                RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

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