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v12 Release Notes

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    #31
    Re: v12 Release Notes

    You know I could get excited about working on a list of desktop feature suggestions if the request for such a list came from Alpha Software.
    Regards,

    John W.
    www.CustomReportWriters.net

    Comment


      #32
      Re: v12 Release Notes

      Hi Raymond,

      As I said in my first post, this is a question that should have been asked directly to Alpha Software Inc. Just by having a "discussion" here as an observation about a version that has not yet been released that don't include some notes about part of the build, I don't think adds to any ones knowledge or understanding of the product. All that happens is fuel gets poured onto some imaginary fire and speculation fans the flames.

      Yes there is a wishlist and a number of things have come from it. As you know not everyone's wish comes to fruition. All I do know for sure, the desk top as we all know and love, will continue in the next version.

      For Marcel to have posted his observation, which he is entitled to do, leaves nothing other than to imply that because there are no notes at present there will no changes to the desktop in V12. For my part of this discussion, I don't accept this premis.
      Regards
      Keith Hubert
      Alpha Guild Member
      London.
      KHDB Management Systems
      Skype = keith.hubert


      For your day-to-day Needs, you Need an Alpha Database!

      Comment


        #33
        Re: v12 Release Notes

        Originally posted by Keith Hubert View Post
        Hi Raymond,

        As I said in my first post, this is a question that should have been asked directly to Alpha Software Inc. Just by having a "discussion" here as an observation about a version that has not yet been released that don't include some notes about part of the build, I don't think adds to any ones knowledge or understanding of the product. All that happens is fuel gets poured onto some imaginary fire and speculation fans the flames....
        Obviously I disagree. You have to know that in the past, raising similar questions has resulted in Alpha modifying plans. And wouldn't your suggested silence in a place like this perhaps make Alpha think no one cares much about the desktop? Yes, I know, Marcel should have asked Alpha directly (as if one person matters).

        Yes there is a wishlist and a number of things have come from it. As you know not everyone's wish comes to fruition. All I do know for sure, the desk top as we all know and love, will continue in the next version.
        How can you be sure? It would not surprise me if Alpha one day discontinues the desktop altogether. They certainly will if no one shows concern about new desktop development.

        For Marcel to have posted his observation, which he is entitled to do, leaves nothing other than to imply that because there are no notes at present there will no changes to the desktop in V12. For my part of this discussion, I don't accept this premis.
        It does not imply that at all.

        Raymond Lyons

        Comment


          #34
          Re: v12 Release Notes

          Originally posted by Peter.Greulich View Post
          Please don't blame the moderators. The only threads that they have deleted are spam or duplicate posts. The Bob Zale thread is dated Jan 20th and is located in the General Discussion forum. It was not deleted.
          Hi Peter; R&R are the "king moderators" which I was referring to. I'm glad to see the Bob Zale thread is still here. Sometimes it seems like participation on this forum requires the agility to walk on egg shells! (I guess that's what I should have stated in my post.)

          On occasion, I run across posts on this forum where the contributors imply they are worried about either having a thread/post deleted (as a result of their statements), or even worse: getting banned completely. In contrast, it's very different "environment" in other forums like google. They don't remove posts due to discourse. (They [google/moderators] may defend their position, but they don't necessarily "vaporize" the content due to discontent.)
          Last edited by SNusa; 02-21-2013, 07:41 PM.
          Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
          It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
          RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

          Comment


            #35
            Re: v12 Release Notes

            As for the desktop side: Alpha (IMHO) would be better off spending a few months refining & cleaning up the desktop code they presently have. (As opposed to adding more "bells & whistles to the desktop side.) ~ One thing's for sure. It needs "polishing!" ~ To not do so is going to surely caust them in terms of subscription revenue.
            Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
            It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
            RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

            Comment


              #36
              Re: v12 Release Notes

              Seems like I've read all this before, just prior to and during the release of the last several version. As I said on another thread, while the discussion is interesting, it won't produce anything from Alpha. None of the others did.

              I sent a bug report about the A5 Installer as it was not working as it should. I was told it included some 'very old' files and it probably will not be included in v12. While I don't know for sure, my guess is the A5 installer will only install the desktop as it is made up of at least one very old files and it's simply out dated. Maybe that means no v12 desktop. if not, I find it hard to believe that Alpha would expect everyone to convert to a web app when there are no doubt, a large number of small businesses which need a desktop simply because they aren't needing a web product. So, with that in mind, here's my prediction:

              Alpha will have a desktop but not as we know it. There will be enhancements to using the grids and dialogs on forms. There will be enhancements so that it will be much easier to open/close grids and dialogs with a button. I predict the web features will work more seamlessly, hopefully a lot seamlessly. What is created for the web, will work as a desktop as well. Why do I think this is Alpha's direction? Simply this, the current desktop technology is out dated and fading fast into the past and Alpha signaled this approach a long time ago. I remember Selwyn saying they were designing a product which would not need sets. Now the grids and dialogs are here. I shyed away from the web part until v11 but after using the grids and dialogs on a desktop app I'm designing, I must say, it's got browses and other desktop features beat by a country mile.

              So, will the desktop be as it is with nly a few enhancements or will the desktop be web grids and dialogs? TIme will tell but my $$ is on the latter.
              TYVM :) kenn

              Knowing what you can achieve will not become reality until you imagine and explore.

              Comment


                #37
                Re: v12 Release Notes

                Originally posted by SNusa View Post
                As for the desktop side: Alpha (IMHO) would be better off spending a few months refining & cleaning up the desktop code they presently have. (As opposed to adding more "bells & whistles to the desktop side.) ~ One thing's for sure. It needs "polishing!" ~ To not do so is going to surely caust them in terms of subscription revenue.
                Sorry but it ain't gonna happen. No way, no how. The desktop as we know it is at the end of the road. It will cost them lotsa $$$ to do this and only prolong the inevitable. Time and $$ is better spent on the future.
                TYVM :) kenn

                Knowing what you can achieve will not become reality until you imagine and explore.

                Comment


                  #38
                  Re: v12 Release Notes

                  Originally posted by forskare View Post
                  Sorry but it ain't gonna happen. No way, no how. The desktop as we know it is at the end of the road. It will cost them lotsa $$$ to do this and only prolong the inevitable. Time and $$ is better spent on the future.
                  I guess it's a good thing that they're not "the only show in town" then.
                  (IMHO, you don't evolve product for 20 years and then leave it in a state like this.)

                  Not only is it "bad business", but it also sends a message about what happens to the web side (in the future) when it hits "end of life." I just don't understand why all this complacency is tolerated by developers & users. I personally thing it's sad that everyone (collectively) enables Alpha to lead everyone down this "dead-end" path. As soon as the "goons in business" realize that "smart-phones" (and tablets to a lesser extent) are a "marginal at best replacement" for real PC power..... This will all come "full-circle." ~ WHERE WILL ALPHA BE THEN? The more I hear about "the desktop being dead" (a very callous and misleading statement IMHO), the more I'm drawn to Real Studio.

                  Regarding the "dumb-terminal" (browser client /server solution) model, we've been down that path decades ago. People want power on (in) their devices and don't want to always rely on a tether to a server. This will never change. Supporting evidence of this is in MS's new offering of the full windows powered tablets.

                  With the exception of IOS, I think all the other tablets and "smart-phones" are gadgets (toys actually) best suited for looking at pictures, and playing a few games..... Business tools? Very funny! However, the full windows "powered" tablet may actually change this.... And assuming it does, it will necessitate "desktop development."

                  Android is a huge disappointment in terms of what I had initially expected reading specs. I actually think it's "the worst of the bunch." (My sister has a new Apple tablet and I must admit I'm impressed.) Regardless, unless you can code for native support (non web based) I see nothing but "dead ends" everywhere I look.

                  Incidentally, the sole reason I don't own a tablet is because my girlfriend has one (android). I find it extremely limiting in almost every aspect. She's not "tech oriented' either. Even so, she has recently purchased a new Lenovo notebook (after getting the tablet), and spends most of her time with the "laptop." (Which surprised the heck out of me!) Same thing essentially goes for phones! With the exception of staying connected to my email, and maybe gps navigation..... I'm not missing much with my "pocket ready" flip phone either! ~ So many are caught up in this "fad" that I almost find it comical....

                  PS: Tablets are not getting powerful solely to browse the web quickly. Everyone should "keep that in mind", especially Alpha! (Because their entire business model is now "at stake.") ~ Not everyone may agree with me on the browser based "dead-end." But if (when) I'm right, you'll probably remember this post!
                  Last edited by SNusa; 02-22-2013, 08:58 AM.
                  Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
                  It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
                  RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Re: v12 Release Notes

                    We should not loose focus of the fact that v12 is having nothing for desktop. Does the majority of developers are working in the web enviroment and what will that translate into sales for Alpha? If the majority is desktop, the sales of v12 will not go well. I am not doing any web development at this time. So for me upgrade, unless v12 help me to win the lottery, no chance.
                    If I do webwork in the future, I will wait for v13 or v14. Money is in short supply.
                    Alpha is a great product, otherwise I will not be using it. But there are many issues in the desktop area to ve improved. Speed, speed, speed among other things.
                    As I see it, adding features that I will not use or many developers either and slowdown the program even further is detrimental.
                    I hope Alpha sees this.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Re: v12 Release Notes

                      Originally posted by forskare View Post
                      Seems like I've read all this before, just prior to and during the release of the last several version. As I said on another thread, while the discussion is interesting, it won't produce anything from Alpha. None of the others did.

                      I sent a bug report about the A5 Installer as it was not working as it should. I was told it included some 'very old' files and it probably will not be included in v12. While I don't know for sure, my guess is the A5 installer will only install the desktop as it is made up of at least one very old files and it's simply out dated. Maybe that means no v12 desktop. if not, I find it hard to believe that Alpha would expect everyone to convert to a web app when there are no doubt, a large number of small businesses which need a desktop simply because they aren't needing a web product. So, with that in mind, here's my prediction:

                      Alpha will have a desktop but not as we know it. There will be enhancements to using the grids and dialogs on forms. There will be enhancements so that it will be much easier to open/close grids and dialogs with a button. I predict the web features will work more seamlessly, hopefully a lot seamlessly. What is created for the web, will work as a desktop as well. Why do I think this is Alpha's direction? Simply this, the current desktop technology is out dated and fading fast into the past and Alpha signaled this approach a long time ago. I remember Selwyn saying they were designing a product which would not need sets. Now the grids and dialogs are here. I shyed away from the web part until v11 but after using the grids and dialogs on a desktop app I'm designing, I must say, it's got browses and other desktop features beat by a country mile.

                      So, will the desktop be as it is with nly a few enhancements or will the desktop be web grids and dialogs? TIme will tell but my $$ is on the latter.
                      This is exactly one of the reasons I posted this thread.

                      As anyone knows, when you criticize Alpha Software on this forum there are always numerous reactions, not all very wise though.
                      Some reactions are in fact expressing quite hefty emotions, some reactions seem to be written based on the assumption that licking heels is the best way to go, and criticism is a bad thing.
                      The reaction above from Ken Nordin is more "in my corner".

                      Good things can come from good critics. If you never express any critics, then (in my humble opinion) you have not much right to complain afterwards. Critics mean that you care to start with. Caring about something is a good thing. Management has no use whatever from people who are always nodding "yes" and never have an opinion of themselves. Management needs guidance.
                      In this particular case, Alpha can make good use of guidance from customers. It can be a very good instrument for them to fine-tune any policy they might have. Sticking your head in the sand like an ostrich has never ever helped anybody much. Great companies do not reject criticism, but embrace and use it for what it is: a free instrument.

                      As developers, we should have a sense for some "vision" in ourselves. We need it in our work to envision any solution for our customers. Utilizing this "sense of vision" I can easily see a situation where the old desktop tooling is discarded of. Along the lines of the product name "Alpha Anywhere" there is a chance that we instead of separate tooling for separate product instances (desktop, web, mobile) we get a true "develop once, publish anywhere" set of tooling. Think about it. Suppose you indeed could work with the grid, dialog, and other 'web' components and that it could be used as a desktop application just as easily as a web application. How cool would that be? Assuming for a moment that Alpha would be able to "make the chain work" on the desktop with all functions a desktop application should have, would that not be a complete Innovation that we would all embrace?

                      As is, the components are already vastly superior to anything we have on the desktop. I agree with Ken about that. No doubt about it. And maybe, just maybe, by venting healthy critics we can push just that little to make things happen. Guarantees we have none. But one thing is for sure: if we do nothing, say nothing, do not brainstorm, then no stimulus will go out from us. And that would be a bad thing.

                      Who does not say anything, can't be heard.

                      And that's what this thread is about.

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Re: v12 Release Notes

                        Originally posted by mronck View Post
                        I noticed whilst reading down the Release Notes for the upcoming version 12 (Anywhere) as they are today, that there is not just only a few, but there are absolutely completely and utterly ZERO new features mentioned for the Desktop. That can't be true now can it? So maybe it just had no attention and if so, wouldn't it be a good idea to also list some of the exiting new features that would attract desktop developers to purchase the new version?

                        There is a lot of stuff for web and (mostly) mobile (as expected of course) but there seems to be 0 for the desktop ?
                        Anyone want a wish list for the desktop ? How about that it runs on a 64 bit platform when MS finishes with the "incremenetal
                        upgrades" to Win 8. This Blue stuff. After which there will be no 32 bit support. Where will that leave the desktop as we use it via V11 ? This is an e-mail from 'Alpha' that I sent as a follow up from a 'discussion' (e-mails) with Mr. Rayner back in March 2011 concerning a 64 bit Desktop. At which time a 64 bit desktop was in process. This is an answer to the question what is the status of a 64 bit desktop post V11.

                        From: "Kurt Rayner" <[email protected]>Add sender to ContactsTo: "'James Miles'" cc: "'Development Alphasoftware'" <[email protected]>, "'Richard Rabins'" <[email protected]>, "'Brett Johnston'" <[email protected]>Hi James,



                        March of 2011�wow!



                        As much as I would love to say �It�s done!�, we are still running as a 32-bit process, and probably will be for a while.



                        The good news is that version 11 has very strong support for .NET and this has enabled a lot of related enhancements.



                        1. We are getting much closer to running as a plug-in under IIS.

                        2. Alpha Five is running more and more code concurrently on multiple cores (although the interpreter is still heavily synchronized for single threaded execution of scripts).

                        3. Windows 8 does in fact run 32-bit processes, so Alpha Five does just fine on that platform.



                        In the longer term, the Application Server will be abstracted more and more until the underlying operating system is irrelevant. One example of this is the cloud initiative, where we make the target platform of the applications your develop completely opaque.



                        If I can answer any specific questions, please let me know. In the mean time, we have no intention of leaving our customers with no place to play their Alpha Five applications. That would not be good for any of us�



                        Regards,



                        Kurt



                        Kurt Rayner

                        Alpha Software

                        70 Blanchard Road; Suite 206

                        Burlington, MA 01803

                        (781) 229-4500 X27

                        Read between the well spaced lines on that one. The DT as we use/know it <= V11 (not seen V12) is 'legacy code' and DT apps developed with it will not run on the 'full' successor to Win 8, which I believe MS has code named WaterDonkey, where the 32 bit emmulator is being dropped. You'd think that amoungst all the DT talk there would be a little more discussion concerning whether or not your development system and your apps will even run on the 'next release ' on the OS it/they were designed to run under without supplying the end user of your apps their own 32 bit environment. That's a good tangent for this thread...

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Re: v12 Release Notes

                          Originally posted by mronck View Post
                          As developers, we should have a sense for some "vision" in ourselves. We need it in our work to envision any solution for our customers. Utilizing this "sense of vision" I can easily see a situation where the old desktop tooling is discarded of. Along the lines of the product name "Alpha Anywhere" there is a chance that we instead of separate tooling for separate product instances (desktop, web, mobile) we get a true "develop once, publish anywhere" set of tooling. Think about it. Suppose you indeed could work with the grid, dialog, and other 'web' components and that it could be used as a desktop application just as easily as a web application. How cool would that be? Assuming for a moment that Alpha would be able to "make the chain work" on the desktop with all functions a desktop application should have, would that not be a complete Innovation that we would all embrace?
                          That is a good concept. (If it is actually the case. ~ Although, I think that in reality, they (Alpha) was closer to delivering that possibility several years ago when they first began rolling down the web path! Regardless, their present approach is not addressing a native code base across platforms, running on the device. ~ It's "all about the server & web browser.

                          Unfortunately, the problem is (and has been since they introduced their web server) a lack of communication from Alpha regarding what they're actually "up to." The "road-map" is vague at best. Meanwhile they're "looking for" high priced annual subscriptions while promising "untimely-delivered" product features. Their business plan/model lacks clarity & to some extent punctuality. ~ And this hurts Alpha tremendously!

                          ~It wasn't like this (several years back) when you spent a couple of hundred dollars to get version x. (Things were simple & straightforward back then.)
                          Last edited by SNusa; 02-22-2013, 09:36 AM.
                          Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
                          It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
                          RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Re: v12 Release Notes

                            Originally posted by SNusa View Post
                            That is a good concept. (If it is actually the case. ~ Although, I think that in reality, they (Alpha) was closer to delivering that possibility several years ago when they first began rolling down the web path! Regardless, their present approach is not addressing a native code base across platforms, running on the device. ~ It's "all about the server & web browser.

                            Unfortunately, the problem is (and has been since they introduced their web server) a lack of communication from Alpha regarding what they're actually "up to." The "road-map" is vague at best. Meanwhile they're "looking for" high priced annual subscriptions while promising "untimely-delivered" product features. Their business plan/model lacks clarity. ~ And this hurts Alpha tremendously!

                            ~It wasn't like this (several years back) when you spent a couple of hundred dollars to get version x. (Things were simple & straightforward back then.)
                            That (the alleged lack of communication with customers) may seem to be the case, and that may be annoying to customers from time to time. However, not having an open agenda is just another policy, a strategy not uncommon in the software industry. Although not all market parties follow that strategy, it does have the advantage of not being frozen on your pre-published road-map of releases. You can change your path whenever you think you need to without having to explain to customers why "feature x" which was in the planning did not go trough in "release y". Nothing is chiseled in marble.... and we, as users/customers, might have even better chances of influencing decisions.

                            Luckily, you are completely free to engage into the subscription or not. As has been explained by Selwyn in a post on this forum somewhere, there will always be an "a la carte option" as well. And although I indeed also see that marketing material from Alpha often suggests otherwise, Selwyn is really the guy to beat within Alpha. As long as he says there will be an "a la carte option", there will be. It is that simple. So I guess there are still enough options to indulge everyone's flavor.

                            What James Miles just stated about Microsoft abandoning 32bit support is also "one of those things". Ofcourse is Microsoft going to kill 32bit support at some point. Nothing is forever in the computer industry and it will only be a matter of time when 32bit shifts completely to 64 bit and so on. But as long as Microsoft wants to make money, they will not produce their own harms way. Personally, I think that the support for 32-bit hardware may disappear, but the support for 32-bit software will stay for a lot more years to come.

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Re: v12 Release Notes

                              I guess it's a good thing that they're not "the only show in town" then.
                              (IMHO, you don't evolve product for 20 years and then leave it in a state like this.)
                              Robert,

                              You're missing the boat. In reality, Alpha IS the only show in town. Why, because they are evolving and I predict v12 will show a lot how the desktop is evolving. IMHO, the desktop, as we know it, is dead. We will see a whole new desktop, probably not complete but you will be able to use most of the web components on it. For me, as a desktop user, that's exciting.

                              We should not loose focus of the fact that v12 is having nothing for desktop. Does the majority of developers are working in the web enviroment and what will that translate into sales for Alpha? If the majority is desktop, the sales of v12 will not go well. I am not doing any web development at this time. So for me upgrade, unless v12 help me to win the lottery, no chance.
                              Ron,

                              Ahhhh, but it will! True, the4 v11 Desktop needs some things fixed or made to do a better job. But why put money into old technology? Common sense says that if the grids, dialogs and other web feathres are to be used on the desktop, I don't say, 'how cool is tha'. I say, How awesome is that!! The web stuff is so much richer. Last Saturday, I did an ititial install with a client, a desktop using the grids. The first comment out of his mouth was, "Wow, this looks nice". That was using the grids right out of the box, no other visual enhancements. That won't happen with the present desktop, even if you spent a ton of time formatting the visuals. It's not possible to achieve the look and feel of new terchnology on an old technology platform. As someone said, putting a new tech engine in an old car doesn't change the looks. And, like anything else for sale, first impression says a lot.
                              TYVM :) kenn

                              Knowing what you can achieve will not become reality until you imagine and explore.

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Re: v12 Release Notes

                                Originally posted by forskare View Post
                                Robert,

                                You're missing the boat. In reality, Alpha IS the only show in town. Why, because they are evolving and I predict v12 will show a lot how the desktop is evolving. IMHO, the desktop, as we know it, is dead. We will see a whole new desktop, probably not complete but you will be able to use most of the web components on it. For me, as a desktop user, that's exciting.



                                Ron,

                                Ahhhh, but it will! True, the4 v11 Desktop needs some things fixed or made to do a better job. But why put money into old technology? Common sense says that if the grids, dialogs and other web feathres are to be used on the desktop, I don't say, 'how cool is tha'. I say, How awesome is that!! The web stuff is so much richer. Last Saturday, I did an ititial install with a client, a desktop using the grids. The first comment out of his mouth was, "Wow, this looks nice". That was using the grids right out of the box, no other visual enhancements. That won't happen with the present desktop, even if you spent a ton of time formatting the visuals. It's not possible to achieve the look and feel of new terchnology on an old technology platform. As someone said, putting a new tech engine in an old car doesn't change the looks. And, like anything else for sale, first impression says a lot.
                                I completely agree with that.

                                Comment

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