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v12 Release Notes

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    #76
    Re: v12 Release Notes

    Originally posted by SNusa View Post
    I don't disagree with your logic one bit Marcel. What I was stating is I made subscription decisions both on their "disclosed intent" and things that were explicitly stated by the Alpha sales department. As agency law prevails, technically Alpha is accountable to promises made by their sales agents. I invested a lot of time in Alpha based on what I was told, and information that was put on their websites.

    Had the sales department told me Alpha was not going to continue debugging the desktop side (or that the desktop side was destined to become obsolete) I would not have spent thousands of dollars & hundreds of hours studying and learning it. (In fact, I probably would have chosen Real Studio instead, although at the time a subscription first became available I did not even know about it.) In the end, I did "dig in deep" with Alpha and became a "Charter Subscriber" (which gave me the extra push). I chose this path based on 1.) What what Alpha used to be (I dabbled with it for years), 2.) What I had read in the marketing materials, and 3.) What I was being explicitly told by their sales department as they "aggressively chased" subscription sales.

    I've already been the web route, and am not overly interested in that path at present. ~ The diversity & complexities of web development are so deep and inter-wound that to develop a thorough understanding of "it all", is virtually impossible! (Unless you make it a lifetime goal.) Unfortunately, I'm never satisfied in "just knowing that something works." I have to fully understand it, and know "why it works." (That's the way I have always approached technology.) ~ So from my perspective: To pursue the web development side of a5 kind of puts me in a "no-win scenario."

    If the desktop is discontinued, there's no getting around the notion that I was misled. (And I'm sure there are many others in this "same boat.")
    Just a couple of points that I would like to make:

    1. HTML/CSS/Javascript programming is ubiquitous

    -- Phones
    -- Watches
    -- Major Appliances
    -- Toys
    -- Cars

    2. A company by the name of RIM almost ceased to exist because of its failure to understand the full impact of the web/mobile environment. Why would you wish that on AlphaFive!

    3. I am competitive as a company because of Alpha and its foresight to develop its web tools. I am web only since version 10 and have not looked back.

    4. The subscription model works for my company and it is how I take delivery of all of my major software purchases - Office365, SolidWorks, RingCentral, and AlphaFive.

    5. I have a manufacturing environment were I will be positioning iPods and iPads as kiosks connected to Alpha Anywhere V12 via an intranet. How frickin! cool is that!

    6. Every issue that I have ever come across with AlphaFive -- despite frustration -- I have always found workarounds. When v10 was weak in its CSS/HTML handling you could always use external editors. The more robust the webside, the more robust any solution can and will become as other tools in javascript, and .net can be woven into the end product by the programmer. Yea that rocks...

    7. I do think that there is a place for desktop applications, but not one that has not blurred the lines with the web programming standards.

    8. The more robust the web side, the more robust the desktop. I do believe that in time their will only be Web. Because it will be ubiquitous.

    Comment


      #77
      Re: v12 Release Notes

      Hi Michael,

      That is exactly what we are heading at: web technology will soak into every corner of application platforms, more or less adapted.
      It is simple economics: we are getting that many devices and platforms that it is not economical anymore to produce specialized tooling for each of them (with a few exceptions) so the strongest technology will survive.
      At this moment it is pretty clear that this "strongest technology" is the web technology. You can see that pretty clear when you look at web components used on the desktop. They are far more powerful then anything we have ever had on the desktop.

      For some, every change is painful and a process that goes hand-in-hand with resistance against the "new" technology, clinging on to the past since "that works" for them and they have grown to wear it like a warm coat in the winter. That's no problem, they can keep working with the old technology as long as they want and have it available. At some point in time they will either stop programming or step into the new world. They are not "early adopters". But with entering the completely new world of mobile programming Alpha will encounter new customers as well. And so there is a natural shift in customers as technology progresses. Some are excited and go along with the flow, others resist and cling to the old, some adopt early, some later. Some will stop, new developers will come.

      I guess since v11 (started somewhere in v10) it is the best time to start and explore web components for use on the desktop. It brings many benefits that we did not have on the desktop before. I can now create an application with the build-in feature to shift into many languages which enables me to develop applications specifically tailored for different countries. All in one go. Amazing! There are really tons of features in the components that can really make great applications. Now is the time to explore that technology. You would need to spend time in it, but that is all in the game.

      Comment


        #78
        Re: v12 Release Notes

        If you read the trade magazines, there is a lot of insight as to why the desktop is not going anywhere. First: "Smart-phones" and tablets are largely "media consumer products", and are also largely "brain-dead" without connectivity. (Sure, some companies are using them for certain applications, but not to run their businesses on. That should be obvious to all.) Second: Security risks with data "elsewhere", downtime issues, slowness of web apps (a huge complaint of products like MS Excel (online edition) etc.... One other thing to really think about is this: Even gamers with tablets frequently make negative comments as to a "downloaded application" when they come to realize they are merely browser web links to web hosted entertainment. ~ They want the applications, not a link to the application elsewhere.

        "New device form factors may in fact be the future. But that doesn't begin to guarantee wide acceptance of computer substitutes/replacements like the "Chrome Book." (an OS that literally exists as a browser) ~ Way too limiting IMO. Nevertheless, I will agree that it is a good idea to explore usage of web based objects for use within the desktop! (And that all future web-based Alpha objects should be designed with both the web and desktop in mind!)

        The mere fact that companies like google are offering "off-line" modes to their browser based tablets further substantiates all of this. ~ "Merely being cloud based is not enough." It's not the solution for many business needs. And since Alpha's primary reason for existence is to serve business with database based services & applications (as opposed to making games and desktop widgets/tools)..... They have no option but to deliver what businesses need, or they will cease to be relevant. Case in point: You don't see MS discontinuing it desktop development environment. It's evolving along side the web environment.

        Web applications can be convenient, great for marketing and they do eliminate computer/client configuration which is a huge time-saver. But there are a ton of downsides. Case in point: Imagine trying to use Alpha if it were a web based service..... We all know how debilitating & frustrating it is when JUST this Alpha forum "goes down." ~ Now imagine if a5 were "cloud based" & did the same when you were trying to build an application......
        Last edited by SNusa; 03-17-2013, 08:43 AM.
        Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
        It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
        RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

        Comment


          #79
          Re: v12 Release Notes

          The point to be made however, was not whether the desktop will survive or not (there is no discussion about that as it seems), but which technology would survive on the desktop. You can use web technology in a number of ways: internet, intranet, desktop, mobile. In the future they will all assimilate the same base technology (the strongest to survive) with for each use mayne some slight modifications by settings. Development technology will become more streamlined and more like a chameleon: it will change color with its destination: develop once, publish anywhere. And for Alpha, web components will be the way to do it!

          Comment


            #80
            Re: v12 Release Notes

            Originally posted by mronck View Post
            The point to be made however, was not whether the desktop will survive or not (there is no discussion about that as it seems), but which technology would survive on the desktop. You can use web technology in a number of ways: internet, intranet, desktop, mobile. In the future they will all assimilate the same base technology (the strongest to survive) with for each use mayne some slight modifications by settings. Development technology will become more streamlined and more like a chameleon: it will change color with its destination: develop once, publish anywhere. And for Alpha, web components will be the way to do it!
            No complaints there, with the chameleon concept of "one for all and all for one." Even so: With 20 years of present desktop evolution, it is shameful IMO for Alpha to not "polish" what is already here and in use. ~ There are quite a bit of existing desktop applications and developers which could/would benefit from this tremendously. (Not to mention the underlying message this would convey to the user-base. At present, the message Alpha has conveyed to loyal long-term desktop users is: "We're sorry, but we don't care.")

            History tends to repeat itself, there is no reason to believe this will not happen to the new components too. I honestly think that Alpha needs to do this to gain some much needed respect within the development community as a whole.
            Last edited by SNusa; 03-17-2013, 10:04 AM.
            Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
            It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
            RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

            Comment


              #81
              Re: v12 Release Notes

              Originally posted by mronck View Post
              The point to be made however, was not whether the desktop will survive or not (there is no discussion about that as it seems), but which technology would survive on the desktop. You can use web technology in a number of ways: internet, intranet, desktop, mobile. In the future they will all assimilate the same base technology (the strongest to survive) with for each use mayne some slight modifications by settings. Development technology will become more streamlined and more like a chameleon: it will change color with its destination: develop once, publish anywhere. And for Alpha, web components will be the way to do it!
              First, I agree with Robert. Most business want their apps "in-house", not in the clouds for the very points Robert made. No business with foresight will put it's existence in the clouds. However, as I read Robert's post, I had the exact thoughts submitted by Marcel. Furthermore, I've never said the desktop would disappear. I did say it would disappear as we know it. Alpha MUST either do a extremely major overhaul, not just in features but in the support files in order to keep up with the evolution of the computer OS. The say is true for any other product, no matter what it is. I have no doubt Alpha is fully aware of that and that is why, eye hath not seen and ear hath not heard Alpha release or announce any major reconstruct plans for the current desktop. Think about it, "Silence is golden". When evaluating Alpha's future, one must understand what they're NOT saying and they've not said anything about the status of the current desktop. Alpha has said they are working on software which can be developed once ad deployed to all three venues. They have NEVER said they had plans to end the desktop or to put the desktop in the clouds. Not that the DT couldn't be used in the clouds, to make that the only way to use the DT would be a very, very foolish venture.

              In summary, I don't believe it is possible for the DT to survive "AS IT EXISTS". Its technology is outdated. I DO believe, however, Alpha is developing the technology to use web components and the is Alpha's DT future.
              TYVM :) kenn

              Knowing what you can achieve will not become reality until you imagine and explore.

              Comment


                #82
                Re: v12 Release Notes

                Originally posted by SNusa View Post
                "Smart-phones" and tablets are largely "media consumer products", and are also largely "brain-dead" without connectivity. [/B]
                This is where my company is going:

                Shop Floor:
                - Cutting Table - iPad strapped to users arm
                - Inventory Manager - iPod - inventory - ordering
                - Time Card - iPod mounted at door
                - Machine shop - iPad mounted above tube cutting machine

                -- my printers all have air print so hard copies are easy - but for the most part I want a paperless office and shop.

                Design Shop
                - Apple Laptop - marketing
                - Win 8 Machine - 3dCAD

                Both with full browser connection to A5 Web applications as this office moves from home to shop.

                At customer sites:
                iPhone - data is collected and stored as a text file and then emailed to my AlphaFive App Server (I do not always have internet connectivity - although this is becoming rare) the AlphaFive App Server then parses the email and puts it into a table for review when we get back to the shop.

                Security.
                My application currently is hosted on Zebra, but could easily be hosted only from the servers at my office. However - I do not have to worry about updating my server hardware - I can easily purchase more horsepower at any time. I can negate security concerns by using the VPN software built into my mobile devices. As a small company, that does not worry me at this time, but as my company grows I will add more and more security measures as needed.

                Future:
                When I think of a desktop/IOS programming environment I am thinking of tools that allow me to create off-line devices that allow me to collect and get data to my back office servers. Not for my shop, but for my sales staff. I think this is moving as far away from laptops and netbooks as possible.

                Cheers.

                Comment


                  #83
                  Re: v12 Release Notes

                  Originally posted by forskare View Post
                  Most business want their apps "in-house", not in the clouds.
                  Years ago I would have agreed with you on this. Two points:

                  -- Robustness of the cloud is by far better than what most can build in house.
                  -- I can move offices, expand and or contract, hire and fire, with very little impact to my IT when it is in the cloud.

                  OK one more point:

                  -- I own my data, but I am glad to let cloud own the hardware that it runs on.

                  Comment


                    #84
                    Re: v12 Release Notes

                    I'd sell my business before I'd agree with you. I need both guaranteed uninterrupted up-time and efficient and fast transactions for my POS. The web cannot deliver that. Occasionaly, I have had brief periods where I could not process credit cards (built in to the POS) due to broadband service interruptions, and even that causes HUGE problems. (Customers in line unable to use credit cards is bad enough.) But to be unable to do any transactions whatsoever would literally be catastrophic!!!!! ~ That is why I have always stood behind the following conviction: Mission critical code must be able to live on the client. ~ Having an "offline" mode is of paramount concern. A solution of "Alpha Anywhere Sometimes" without client code won't work for many mission critical tasks. PERIOD.

                    THE ONLY VIABLE SOLUTION FOR MANY INDUSTRIES IS A MIX OF THE TWO! (Cloud & desktop)

                    ps: I fully endorse some benefits of cloud based data storage along with the notion that a browser solution simplifies (almost eliminates) the need for in-house technical expertise to setup & maintain client based hardware/software....

                    Originally posted by MichaelCarroll View Post
                    Years ago I would have agreed with you on this. Two points:

                    -- Robustness of the cloud is by far better than what most can build in house.
                    -- I can move offices, expand and or contract, hire and fire, with very little impact to my IT when it is in the cloud.

                    OK one more point:

                    -- I own my data, but I am glad to let cloud own the hardware that it runs on.
                    Last edited by SNusa; 03-17-2013, 03:17 PM.
                    Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
                    It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
                    RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

                    Comment


                      #85
                      Re: v12 Release Notes

                      Whatever anyone may think on this subject, figures DO speak for themselves as facts. And those figures very very clearly state, that investments in datacenters is continuously increasing. And not by a little bit, but by the millions. The growth figures are very steep. This says, that more and more data is being pumped into the cloud. Which does not wonder me at all, since the quality those datacenters offer in general can not by matched by most private companies. That does not say that ANY application is at present fit for lifting to the cloud. But saying that "the web cannot deliver uninterrupted up-time and efficient and fast transactions" is absolutely incorrect. It all depends on the technology you put at work and the level of redundancy you put into it.

                      And even IF you have everything running at home, you need extra investments to get to the result where you have "guaranteed uninterrupted up-time". If a dragline in your street blows up the local power installation you are done with if you have no power aggregate available. Same goes for a lot of things. But, as said, not for every application it is efficient to take it to the cloud.

                      Generally speaking, a TIER-4 or even TIER-5 data center is as good as it is going to get and you will have a hard time realizing this quality in your own office. I dare to say for small companies this is completely impossible.
                      Reckon that TIER-5 data centers are not only carrier-independent and redundant, but that goes for power supplies as well, even for location risk profiles. If you shadow your application in the cloud over different geographical locations with different risk-profiles you are as close to 100% guaranteed safe as you are going to come ever. Most TIER-5 data centers have their own geo-mirror-locations available.

                      I agree with Michael Carroll when he says the robustness of the cloud is by far better than what most can build in house. And even IF YOU COULD then the question remains whether that would be cost-efficient in comparison to a third party data center. Probably not.

                      More and more businesses understand this, and it is for good reason that investments in data centers are rising. I personally have taken a high-profile mission-critical application environment into the clouds and the process of working that out with the data centers alone is an eye-opening experience.

                      Robert, "the web" is a broad understanding. It is all about the lines that you utilize to connect to it. These could even be doubled redundant private data lines directly to your data center, and if it is a TIER-4 or TIER-5 data center it will be directly connected to the backbone. Does not get any more secure then that. OK, even that can go down. But so can your own privately housed data center in house. For numerous reasons. There could even be a burglar in the night and you might find in the morning you don't even HAVE a computer system anymore......

                      Comment


                        #86
                        Re: v12 Release Notes

                        Shop Floor:
                        - Cutting Table - iPad strapped to users arm
                        - Inventory Manager - iPod - inventory - ordering
                        - Time Card - iPod mounted at door
                        - Machine shop - iPad mounted above tube cutting machine
                        So George Orwell was right then!
                        This isn't progress, this is the exact opposite and shows a complete distrust of people and a lack of ability to select the right personnel to help you build your business.
                        Do the i thingies have a group hug occasionally?
                        See our Hybrid Option here;
                        https://hybridapps.example-software.com/


                        Apologies to anyone I haven't managed to upset yet.
                        You are held in a queue and I will get to you soon.

                        Comment


                          #87
                          Re: v12 Release Notes

                          Originally posted by Ted Giles View Post
                          Do the i thingies have a group hug occasionally?
                          Yes. It's called an i-meltdown.....

                          Comment


                            #88
                            Re: v12 Release Notes

                            Originally posted by mronck View Post
                            .....Robert, "the web" is a broad understanding. It is all about the lines that you utilize to connect to it. These could even be doubled redundant private data lines directly to your data center, and if it is a TIER-4 or TIER-5 data center it will be directly connected to the backbone. Does not get any more secure then that. OK, even that can go down. But so can your own privately housed data center in house. For numerous reasons. There could even be a burglar in the night and you might find in the morning you don't even HAVE a computer system anymore......
                            I try to make business decisions based on sound & practical reasoning. (Based on 30 years of experience & a solid business education ~ not theoretical concepts & unlimited budgets.) The kind of businesses you are presumably hypothetically referring to are for the most part approaching "enterprise level." ~ I would guess that most Alpha developers build solutions for clients who are way too small for full blown networks with redundant T1 pipes feeding data centers with built-in fail-over.

                            As for statistics, they are what you read into them (and how they are collected). There is a lot more behind the numbers that must be accounted for. FYI, in a year or two, "smart-phones" will reach 80% saturation. What happens then? One thing is for certain: Nearly ALL of the small businesses I personally know of are much more cost effective when they can uses peer-to-peer lans, and not need (nor could they internally support a "real network infrastructure", dependent upon a dedicated server.)

                            Regardless, it goes without saying that data moving between a keyboard and chip in a box travels 1000, 10,000, or possibly 100,000 x faster than it can over the web. Microsoft still believes in full blown computers. Just "thinner" ones. (Hence the new Windows Tablet running full windows 8 Pro with a flip-cover keyboard and a solid state drive.) I believe they are correct, and this is the future of business level tablets! Even with Windows RT and Android tablets, developers are striving to provide "offline mode solutions."

                            There are undoubtedly many benefits to "cloud computing", but there are also just as many benefits to "software running on th box." The truth is, both are complimentary, not exclusive.
                            Last edited by SNusa; 03-18-2013, 09:14 AM.
                            Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
                            It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
                            RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

                            Comment


                              #89
                              Re: v12 Release Notes

                              Originally posted by SNusa View Post
                              There are quite a bit of existing desktop applications and developers which could/would benefit from this tremendously. (Not to mention the underlying message this would convey to the user-base. At present, the message Alpha has conveyed to loyal long-term desktop users is: "We're sorry, but we don't care.")
                              This has been said of Alpha with every release in the last 20 years. However, one one understands Alpha's concept of moving forward, yes, Alpha does care. Yes there are some things Alpha could do with the present DT. However, they have chosen to put their time, energy and money into the future.

                              History tends to repeat itself, there is no reason to believe this will not happen to the new components too. I honestly think that Alpha needs to do this to gain some much needed respect within the development community as a whole.
                              As have many others. However, as history has shown, this has not been the case.
                              TYVM :) kenn

                              Knowing what you can achieve will not become reality until you imagine and explore.

                              Comment


                                #90
                                Re: v12 Release Notes

                                Originally posted by forskare View Post
                                This has been said of Alpha with every release in the last 20 years. However, one one understands Alpha's concept of moving forward, yes, Alpha does care.
                                I disagree, and here's why: Caring would mean that they would have set aside / made time to fix several of the basic desktop GUI bugs to take care of existing and long-time desktop customers. (Something they have always done in the past.) On the contrary, I don't believe they have addressed a single bug (GUI or otherwise) that I uncovered during the past 3 months. (Too busy on other projects I was once told n an email. ~ That was in direct response to the problematic browse scroll.) ~ FYI: A SQL performance enhancement project was stated as being their priority at that time. Cian had indicated (via email) that some of the bugs would be looked at, and he would follow up when time permitted to address the issue properly. Unfortunately, I haven't heard a thing. ~ In the past, up to v.10.5, they always resolved issues & bugs. (Also, during subscription renewal, Alpha's sales department specifically stated Alpha was still committed to continued desktop support during the v.11 cycle.) ~ Being a subscriber, I certainly expected as such.

                                A few weeks to focus on & resolve existing desktop bugs to keep their present desktop users & subscribers "on-board." (It's a "no-brainer" if you ask me.) ~ And if they imply they can't afford to do this (which I doubt is the case), I suspect we're all in a "heap of trouble."

                                I'm sure they could care less about my subscription renewal individually, but if there are several hundred others who feel "let down", everyone will suffer. Do the math! (Not to mention how this could effect users resiliency to adopting a subscription model. A model which is probably critical to future web/tablet development.)
                                Last edited by SNusa; 03-17-2013, 08:37 PM.
                                Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
                                It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
                                RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

                                Comment

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