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Thread: Attention Desktop Developers

  1. #121
    "Certified" Alphaholic Ted Giles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Attention Desktop Developers

    remember, we all end up dead in the end.
    That very much depends on your point of view. I for one am coming back.

    Where this thread going next?

    Marcel, do you have shares in Keyboard manufacturers? I'd buy them!
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    Default Re: Attention Desktop Developers

    Quote Originally Posted by forskare View Post
    Robert,

    There has only been one renewal of the subscription and that was AFTER the initial subscription to v11 when it was released. Previous to that, we had to buy everything individually. Yes, Alpha is heavily committed to the desktop or they would not spend the time and energy to make components available to the DT. In the long run, the DT will be richer looking and be much easier to create than the current DT. And, as far as I can tell, the component development is not plagued with the quirky reactions we get with the old style DT when there are too many odd files which need to be cleaned out with a database compact.

    The future us the is the Component Method and those components will be used interchangeably on a single computer, an in-house network, Mobile or Web To me, that is exciting. Alpha is known for its power and ease of use. Component development takes it to a higher level and THAT IS AWESOME!
    You are only partially correct (in my instance.) As a "charter member" (I fail to see any current existing benefits of the "charter" part.....), an early renewal was offered at a reduced rate. I was "on the fence" at that time, but renewed after speaking with sales. (I actually ended up renewing my subscription 6+ months earlier than I actually needed to as a result, hoping to realize desktop things in v.11 that were IMHO "lacking" in v.10.5) ~ Being a customer since the 3.5 floppy days, I am also well aware of the old pricing "schema."

    That being said, If the desktop does in fact evolve into something that offers easy distribution, cleaner code & a compiler for speed, that would be great... (As I said, I've been waiting and hoping for this for many years, and up to now never bothered even looking elsewhere.) The problem (for myself at least) is there is little directives/feedback coming from Alpha. Consequently, I don't see any point in gambling (maintaining a "charter subscription") aka "waiting" (hoping) for these things to happen. ~ You cannot ignore the fact that extensive tablet support was expected for v.11. And to that I say, "where's WAS the beef."

    Before getting any defensive remarks to the above (or below), let me state the following: In no way am I trying to belittle Alpha. Selwyn seems like a genuinely likeable individual, and the company does have a lot going for it. I'm merely stating my perceptions as a "previously opportunistic charter member." If Alpha were to come out and clarify on their intentions, I might feel otherwise. But having been misguided already (on numerous matters), I think I'd still have to "see it to believe it." Regardless, only time will tell.....

    PS: Based on their initial indicated tablet & device support "feature-set." (A "feature-set" which was literally scheduled and essentially "promised" for v.11, yet never made it to production.) ~ I honestly feel that Alpha has (at the very least) a "moral" obligation to it's charter subscribers, to extend subscriptions through the next version which includes the usable portable device support. ~ Coming from sales directly, that feature-set was the #1 v.11 pre-release sales pitch for the early "charter membership" renewal. (And as I recall, they contacted me via a phone call with this offer. And at the time, I was genuinely surprised, given the "premature" nature of the subscription renewal solicitation.) I suspect other "charter subscribers" can both attest to & agree with this statement. (Regardless of whether or not they are willing to "speak up" here.)
    Last edited by SNusa; 03-09-2013 at 03:26 PM.
    Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
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  3. #123
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    Default Re: Attention Desktop Developers

    A compiler in Alpha?? Can anyone imagine how hard it would be to set that up?? What would the user "include" in the exe? I just do not think that will be coming. There are plenty of compilers out there, but the way alpha allows code to be written in so many places in the app, how could they ever incorporate it enough to make it to an exe??? I would love one and have asked for it for years.

    I do not mean for distribution, but even that would be difficult with all the different ways we have to do installs as it is.

    Weak promises from anyone makes the world a tougher place to live for the one who makes the promise and the one given the promise.
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  4. #124
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    Default Re: Attention Desktop Developers

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveM View Post
    A compiler in Alpha?? Can anyone imagine how hard it would be to set that up?? What would the user "include" in the exe? I just do not think that will be coming. There are plenty of compilers out there, but the way alpha allows code to be written in so many places in the app, how could they ever incorporate it enough to make it to an exe??? I would love one and have asked for it for years.

    I do not mean for distribution, but even that would be difficult with all the different ways we have to do installs as it is.

    Weak promises from anyone makes the world a tougher place to live for the one who makes the promise and the one given the promise.
    I would tend to agree with you. However, here's the link. (compiler info near bottom) http://wiki.alphasoftware.com/Road+M...+in+Version+11

    For what it's worth, Real-Studio compiles projects into an "all inclusive" portable single .exe file! (and also one file for running on OSX!) ~ I'm intrigued. (Their shortcoming ironically appears to be a lack of a browse object, and views in the built-in SQLite [aka sets here] are not update-able. (limitation of SQLite) I have to find out more though, as I suspect I'm missing something. ~ I have yet to download their trial software. (There are also some really intriguing benefits to SQLite, one being full transactional support, even on tablets!)

    http://www.sqlite.org/
    Last edited by SNusa; 03-09-2013 at 07:02 PM.
    Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
    It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
    RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

  5. #125
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    Default Re: Attention Desktop Developers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Giles View Post
    That very much depends on your point of view. I for one am coming back.
    Nope. Whatever your point of view is: death awaits you. Should you come back however be sure to let us know since until now, nobody has.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Giles View Post
    Marcel, do you have shares in Keyboard manufacturers? I'd buy them!
    I'm just a fast typist. So it doesn't matter to me much how long a post is. I write what I want to write and it takes as long as it takes.
    But who knows, I might be Shakespeare.... who came back...... if I had your point of view that is.....

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    Default Re: Attention Desktop Developers

    The compiler was not promised for v11, they spoke about it for v12 and not even for initial release with v12. So it does not seem right to throw all up on one pile and call that a promise not kept. Furthermore it was not a promise to begin with, they even specifically noted that there were quite troublesome hurdles to take for that could become true. We don't know yet whether it will come or not and it's not overdue if you look at what the company has stated. That however may be something else as customers might have expected. Here is the quote:

    We expect an Xbasic compiler to become available in the V12 time frame.

  7. #127
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    Default Re: Attention Desktop Developers

    Quote Originally Posted by mronck View Post
    The compiler was not promised for v11, they spoke about it for v12 and not even for initial release with v12. So it does not seem right to throw all up on one pile and call that a promise not kept. Furthermore it was not a promise to begin with, they even specifically noted that there were quite troublesome hurdles to take for that could become true. We don't know yet whether it will come or not and it's not overdue if you look at what the company has stated. That however may be something else as customers might have expected. Here is the quote:
    Hi Marcel;

    My post never implied that a compiler was promised, let alone overdue. (Nevertheless, a compiler was supposedly at least "in the works.") Based on the road-map, I was merely hoping for & anticipating one. (again, not alone here by any means) The mere indication that a compiler was in the works leads one to believe Alpha has/had a solid future commitment to desktop support. (Blowing off legitimate bug reports over the past few months is in direct conflict to this, and regardless of what they are presently working on..... Desktop users, especially subscription holders like myself paid for this support "up-front.") ~ To ve totally honest, not getting this support erodes/negates the subscription's value.

    Essentially, what I was conveying in my previous post was that Alpha's published "road-map" (amongst other things) had been instrumental in my continued commitment to Alpha. ~ As for the direct promises of v.11 tablet & portable support..... It's (at present) almost a full year overdue. IMHO, that' indisputably the "broken promise." And for that, they should be accountable. (Ironically, I didn't care about tablet support, so not getting it yet didn't effect me. Not yet anyways. I was going to "delve" into that next year. As for desktop support, that's a whole different story.)
    Last edited by SNusa; 03-09-2013 at 06:10 PM.
    Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
    It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
    RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

  8. #128
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    Default Re: Attention Desktop Developers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Giles View Post
    That very much depends on your point of view. I for one am coming back.

    Where this thread going next?

    Marcel, do you have shares in Keyboard manufacturers? I'd buy them!
    Don't go with the rocket thing! (Harder to return me thinks!)
    I saw that post and had to laugh. That's what I used to tell everyone. ~ "Send my ashes up in a rocket towards the sun & put me into orbit around it."

    We did get "off-topic" and I'm partly to blame. (I don't believe I initiated this "shift." If I did, I apologize.) ~ Regardless, it doesn't really matter, as Alpha could care less about what we want & don't want for the desktop side.
    Last edited by SNusa; 03-09-2013 at 07:06 PM.
    Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
    It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
    RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

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    Default Re: Attention Desktop Developers

    Quote Originally Posted by SNusa View Post
    Hi Marcel;

    My post never implied that a compiler was promised, let alone overdue. (Nevertheless, a compiler was supposedly at least "in the works.") Based on the road-map, I was merely hoping for & anticipating one. (again, not alone here by any means) The mere indication that a compiler was in the works leads one to believe Alpha has/had a solid future commitment to desktop support. (Blowing off legitimate bug reports over the past few months is in direct conflict to this, and regardless of what they are presently working on..... Desktop users, especially subscription holders like myself paid for this support "up-front.") ~ To ve totally honest, not getting this support erodes/negates the subscription's value.

    Essentially, what I was conveying in my previous post was that Alpha's published "road-map" (amongst other things) had been instrumental in my continued commitment to Alpha. ~ As for the direct promises of v.11 tablet & portable support..... It's (at present) almost a full year overdue. IMHO, that' indisputably the "broken promise." And for that, they should be accountable. (Ironically, I didn't care about tablet support, so not getting it yet didn't effect me. Not yet anyways. I was going to "delve" into that next year. As for desktop support, that's a whole different story.)
    Robert,

    A Subscription is something completely different then purchasing a license although it may seem the same. It's not in my opinion.
    If you buy a subscription, you tie into Alpha's product development future. You don't only buy what is available to you at the moment of purchase, but you also buy what will come available to you in the next year (or 2 years) that the subscription is valid. If you purchase a license, you buy what is available right now, and maybe get patches on that as they are published.
    This means that you will run a risk. The risk that development (for whatever reason) does not proceed as planned or hoped, and that certain expectations that you may have based on whatever reason do not come true. On the other hand, you also have the chance, that things you would not dare hope for do come true just because of something Selwyn and his team totally unexpectedly invent.
    This difference should have been clear to you in the first place when you bought the subscription. If not, you have purchased lightly and might have turned up getting something you regret.
    I do not find it very mature to complain afterwards when your expectations are not quite met. You also do not do so in any casino and go to the cashier to complain you did not win the million. Because, even when not exactly the same, there actually are comparable characteristics since you do gamble on the fact whether your personal expectations get realized or not. I would say: it's all in the game.

    Now, at this point you will probably mention the talks you had with Alpha Sales, but that actually is not very sportive since until now you did not present (so we must conclude you don't have it) any evidence that someone of Alpha Sales specifically promised you something they did not deliver. And if they really did so, and you have evidence of that, then I am sure they will be open for discussion on that. The forum might not be the place to do that since it is not the desk of Alpha Customer Service. But we really can not react in any way on things you say you have heard someone of Sales say as we were not present, did not hear that, and you presented no evidence of that. As far as we know, this could be a case of wishful thinking. Who knows?

    Alpha's Road-Map as you mention it is not a promise. They specifically state that. If you nevertheless see it that way, that is not something you can blame Alpha for, blame yourself. They try to realize goals, but it is only normal that goals change or delay is experienced. This is really inventing stuff that is not there, and you can not exactly force that process nor put a time frame on it and expect things to roll out exactly like that.
    You say that Alpha is not very communicative (at least, I take it that way) but with the last sentences in mind, what do you expect? Whatever they say they get hang up on regardless what disclaimer they use. I find that weak arguments to say the least.

    What triggers your commitment to Alpha, or your motivation to purchase a subscription or a license really is up to you. You made that decision. Personally, I do not believe all things advertisements say to begin with. Take all marketing and promotional material with a sound and healthy feel of common sense would be wise to start with.

    Alpha is not perfect. No person and no other company is. We can't expect Alpha to be perfect. But there is a saying about "the glass being half empty or half full". You can keep on hammering on what Alpha has not (yet) succeeded in, but you can also look at what they HAVE succeeded in and be happy with that. There is no use in keep kicking Alpha management against the shins.

    As an example may function the ability to use components on the desktop. Some developers have discarded that option in v11 almost instantly, pointing to historical experiences, but on the other hand not investing any time in this wonderful feature. This feature however may change forever the way how we, alpha five desktop developers, will look at our Alpha Five toolkit. It almost looks like a negative emotional resistance against what can be seen as an exceptionally great feature.

  10. #130
    "Certified" Alphaholic Ted Giles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Attention Desktop Developers

    I do not find it very mature to complain afterwards when your expectations are not quite met.
    I think that's borderline rude Marcel.
    If someone has another job - and using Alpha is an aide as opposed to a way of earning a living - there is an element of "belief" in the advertising that what has been suggested might actually emerge.

    Rob will answer for himself, however he makes a lot of valid points in his many posts, and has delved quite deeply into the use of Xbasic. In addition he has taken the trouble to document his findings for the benefit of many.

    I work with some extremely succinct technical specifications that take ages to read and understand. They are written by developers who do not want to put anything in a spec which could be miscostrued in a court of law. Hence they are often almost too complex to follow.

    I don't believe that advertising and promises fall into the same category and while I may disagree with Rob on occasion (I believe my first reposte to one of his lengthy submissions was, "Is your therapist on holiday?", he is the one feeling agrieved that what he believed/was told/inferred would happen doesn't seem to have done.

    My approach has always been like the man from Missouri - "show me", then I'll think about buying. I have no problem with the concept of a subscription, but I won't buy one as I want a one time purchase of a working set of software which does what it says it will, and with reasonably regular updates paid if necessary, as the different versions of Alpha actually are.

    The problem with a subscription pricing model is the inevitability of it all. You commit an amount and it goes on and on, and each day that passes where your expectations are left dangling creates frustration and resentment. A one off purchase - you usually get what you pay for, or have recourse to return the goods if they are faulty. In the early days (Win 3.1.1) when the Alpha advertising stated that a Memo field was "unlimited" length, I bough 5 copies for a client. On install, it turned out that the field size was actually 255 char max. After a battle with the supplier ( a UK company) I got my money back. When the Memo field got fixed, I bought the next version. So getting it wrong doesn't mean losing clients as there was a quick solution which the frustration of an unfulfilled sudscription cannt hope to match.
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    Default Re: Attention Desktop Developers

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Giles View Post
    I think that's borderline rude Marcel.
    I can see why you would think that (taken out of context), but what I think is rude is to continuously hack around on Alpha on their own forum without even proving that promises were actually made. I have read enough of those posts by quite a number of posters here who seem to riot against a software manufacturer. No good can come from that. There definitely is a reason that many of those posts needed to be removed by moderators. That is what I would call rude. If you have a beef with the company, then fight it out with them and not by venting grieves in almost every post you make constantly kicking the shins of Alpha's management. If you really think that such behavior is going to change anything soon besides it being following the wrong road (they have a Customer Service for that) you are quite wrong. To the relief of many, that is all I am going to say on that. At one point, it is enough. Don't you think?

  12. #132
    "Certified" Alphaholic DaveM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Attention Desktop Developers

    Marcel,

    I am attacking what you said here a bit. You know we do not agree in all cases, so think about it?

    I can see why you would think that (taken out of context), but what I think is rude is to continuously hack around on Alpha on their own forum without even proving that promises were actually made. I have read enough of those posts by quite a number of posters here who seem to riot against a software manufacturer. No good can come from that. There definitely is a reason that many of those posts needed to be removed by moderators. That is what I would call rude. If you have a beef with the company, then fight it out with them and not by venting grieves in almost every post you make constantly kicking the shins of Alpha's management. If you really think that such behavior is going to change anything soon besides it being following the wrong road (they have a Customer Service for that) you are quite wrong. To the relief of many, that is all I am going to say on that. At one point, it is enough. Don't you think?
    There are many posts that did not need to be removed! It could be more subjective. Many of our needs/wants are brought out in these forum threads and Alpha DOES see them. I think they WANT to! That is ALL GOOD. I would never consider a modicum of bringing up past advertised or spoken future plans a kicking of Alpha's shins. It serves a purpose to remind Alpha of what they have led the user's to believe. It serves a purpose to alpha to learn where they are lacking and needed changes.

    This forum takes a large load off their customer care dept as well as tech support. Many users get their answers/bug fix problems/work arounds/etc. here instead of tieing up an alpha person. Also, remember, not all sales people are really aware of what they are selling or what is coming soon.

    Advertising and promising IS the same thing! Some just want to push one or the other too far.
    Dave Mason
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  13. #133
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    Default Re: Attention Desktop Developers

    Quote Originally Posted by mronck View Post
    Robert,

    If you buy a subscription, you tie into Alpha's product development future. You don't only buy what is available to you at the moment of purchase, but you also buy what will come available to you in the next year (or 2 years) that the subscription is valid. If you purchase a license, you buy what is available right now, and maybe get patches on that as they are published.
    Marel, I'm going to "ignore" your statement implying I've made statements and claims with "lack of proof." Nor am I going to bother to dig up the emails offering proof. I don't believe I need to defend my integrity here.

    However, I will add this to what I previously stated: I do in fact have an email (from the sales department of a guy who no longer works at Alpha) making reference to the notion that: I could sell any of the unneeded components (of the subscription) including the extra full copy of a5 v.11 & the extra copy of the web server to help offset the subscription pricing of the "special early offer" presented to me..... That email was apparently not 100% correct, as I had placed a sales thread which was quickly removed from this forum. ~ I did sell the extra copy of a5 v.11 (cheap), but nothing else was sold. ~ The new sales person @ Alpha took care of authenticating the registration. (Old sales guy "ironically left the company.") ~ I could make an inference as to why he may have "left", but I'll leave that to you.

    That being said, whey you purchase "anything" based upon what you are told, you expect to get (within reason) what is offered & essentially promised. And while I understand (and can appreciate) the issues and delays that Alpha is presently dealing with, it does not make it right.

    To be blunt: I renewed my subscription on the premise (specifically conveyed to me) through Alpha sales regarding the future development & debugging of the desktop. When you make a purchase (here in the US anyways): Any sales person who makes specific statements (to make the sale ~ about what is to be included), technically legally leaves the company (for which he/she works) accountable for what they "promise/offer." (Here in the US, I believe it's still referred to as "agency law.") ~ And with the correspondence I have regarding this subscription renewal, I could make one call to AMEX, forward the documents & and have the entire subscription transaction nullified. I have no intentions of doing such, because to do so would not accomplish anything. (It's not about the $$, it's about my future confidence. Something we all know is an issue at some level regarding Alpha's acceptance in the marketplace.)

    On a related note: Several months ago, I began uncovering & documenting v.11 desktop bugs. (I've been doing this since v.7, you can find the v.11 bug reports if you look for them.) ~ A significant amount of them were GUI related, but not all. The thing is: These are the kind of bugs that should never exist in any mature product, period. So when a response comes from Alpha that they "don't have the time" to correct these bugs, (having previously/recently committed themselves to future desktop support both verbally and in writing), dissatisfaction is to be expected. ~ We're talking about SUPPORT here, which in essence is what any subscription is all about): To me, the message is very clear on many different levels.

    PS: As a result of this, I also stopped looking for and reporting the bugs. No point apparently..... I will say that from my relentless efforts of debugging "ice-picking" the desktop GUI, I have a pretty solid "feel" of how the a5 desktop side of a5 "operates internally." ~ It's a very intriguing architecture IMHO. There's a lot of "genius under it's skin."
    Last edited by SNusa; 03-10-2013 at 12:44 PM.
    Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
    It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
    RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

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    Default Re: Attention Desktop Developers

    Robert,

    Properly done, there would also be a fine levied against any company. You also do not have to have the sale nullified unless you so desire. In the advent of a lawsuit, there could also be monetary gains. I know this is not your intention, nor would it be mine! I hate the use of attorneys and it could be expensive for one to start up.

    Your post and mine will probably get this thread deleted. I have a particular love for Alpha and respect their owners. I wish them no harm and part of my answer and your post are aimed at getting their attention(I am sure)!
    Dave Mason
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    Default Re: Attention Desktop Developers

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveM View Post
    There are many posts that did not need to be removed! It could be more subjective. Many of our needs/wants are brought out in these forum threads and Alpha DOES see them. I think they WANT to! That is ALL GOOD. I would never consider a modicum of bringing up past advertised or spoken future plans a kicking of Alpha's shins. It serves a purpose to remind Alpha of what they have led the user's to believe. It serves a purpose to alpha to learn where they are lacking and needed changes.

    This forum takes a large load off their customer care dept as well as tech support. Many users get their answers/bug fix problems/work arounds/etc. here instead of tieing up an alpha person. Also, remember, not all sales people are really aware of what they are selling or what is coming soon.

    Advertising and promising IS the same thing! Some just want to push one or the other too far.
    Dave makes good points. Just to chime in:


    • Censorship is almost always a bad idea. It alienates & frustrates customers, it stymies honest and open discussion, and it sends a signal that users, almost all of which are paying customers, better watch what they say - big brother is watching and he has a heavy hand.
    • Customer complaints and venting do provide a valuable service. It tends to force the company to listen and adjust policy & product delivery. That assumes, of course, that the company is responsive to normal market forces, something not always true in small companies.
    • This forum, and its vigorous membership participation, is indeed a huge assist to Alpha. So many technical questions have been answered here and so many useful solutions have been offered. And some of the most critical (of Alpha) people have been some of Alpha's biggest supporters and solution providers. Without this forum, i doubt Alpha would even be in business today. It is the lifeblood of the company. I think they realize that. The idea that people should just be passive "technical" participants and never say anything "controversial" or never question Alpha's sales & advertising policy or question the technical merits of the program is not realistic at all. It's one thing to go on entirely negative tirades against Alpha and quite another to offer constructive criticism, even angry criticism. But, of course, some people (also customers) don't want to hear it. They don't like it, it disturbs their world-view somehow (I guess) and they would prefer that every thing remains calm & quiet no matter what Alpha dishes out. And I suppose Alpha can chose to censor all these posts and create an "island of passive tranquility", but they would be shooting themselves in the foot, in my view, if they do.
    • Alpha has (it would seem) over-sold in some of their advertising. In particular, the two that most people seem to complain about is: IIS capability & mobile support promised for v11. Strictly speaking, since v11 is still in its life-cycle, we can't say they have broken this promise. However, all indications are that these features won't be available until v12. I don't believe Alpha ever intended to mislead anyone, it's just that sales got way ahead of the programmers. Or maybe the programmers were overly optimistic? But, in any case, a company shouldn't promise what it can't deliver. People are upset, but I don't know how you satisfy grievances at this point - short of delivering those items as part of v11 and thus remove much of the impetus to buy v12, which might be a big financial problem for Alpha. If Alpha made good on its promises for v11, but that caused the company to go belly-up due to lack of sales in v12, would that be a desirable outcome?
    • In my experience, sales people can be tremendously ignorant of a product's capability and even of company policy. It especially becomes problematic if a company has fuzzy or ill-defined policy or worse - no policy. Maybe that's not true here, can't really say, but...


    Personally, I believe the views expressed in this thread and others are generally constructive and useful, but I don't agree with all of them, who does? Some people are turned off, some won't read them, some see them as long-winded (wind bags?) and some offer counter arguments. But the ability to express one's views about a subject which generates a lot of passion is a good thing. Alpha should be heartened that their is so much passion over and about their product. Not every software vendor out there can claim such intense interest and concern.

    My 2-cents.

  16. #136
    Member SNusa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Attention Desktop Developers

    Well put everyone! ~ And thanks to many of you, this forum is certainly the lifeblood of Alpha!
    Just a friendly reminder: Ultimately, we're all on the same side here, (including Alpha!) ~ We all want a better tool(s).
    And I doubt that anyone would waste time here participating in this thread (or on this forum for that matter) if we "didn't care."

    As for "thread deletion" due to post specific viewpoints: Because posts like this should be seen as constructive, I don't see any benefits in their removal either. (There are no personal attacks, no untruths , no defamation, and no intended harm/ill-will) In the long run, discussions like this can and should be beneficial to all. (especially Alpha) ~ I have always emphasized that I hope that Alphasoftware continues to excel as a company. I still do. (Regardless of how much further I choose to continue down this path.)

    When customers have a chance to "offer feedback", vendors have the opportunity to react."
    (I nearly forgot: Feedback should be a 2-way street!)
    Last edited by SNusa; 03-10-2013 at 04:50 PM.
    Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
    It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
    RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

  17. #137
    "Certified" Alphaholic Ted Giles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Attention Desktop Developers

    Spot on Peter.
    I got exactly what I paid for in V11, and excellent assistance from Alpha Sales when I needed it most.
    Just to confirm, I'm an Alpha Fan and reserve the right to disagree with anyone.
    When V12 comes out I'll probably purchase a copy, but not a subscription, for reasons I have stated previously.
    Think I'll just go back to answering techie questions if I can, and leave the filibustering and navel gazing to others. (Wind bags?)
    Ted Giles
    Example Consulting - UK
    .

    http://ec12.example-software.com//
    See our site for Alpha Support, Conversion and Upgrade.

  18. #138
    Member jkwrpc's Avatar
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    Default Re: Attention Desktop Developers

    Peter - Nicely said!

  19. #139
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    Default Re: Attention Desktop Developers

    Of course, nobody will advocate for "censorship". That is very black-and-white reasoning. There are many colors between black and white.
    Moderation is a part of any forum and is commonly used on most fora that I participate in. The truth must be told, and there should be room for that, even when that implies complaints against the host of the forum, but there is a time and a place for everything. We are guests on this forum and this together with the freedom to say what we want also sets forth that we have a certain responsibility. And it is my personal feeling that with constantly bashing at Alpha Software in numerous posts that all breath the same negative atmosphere we are approaching the limits of what that responsibility asks from us. When "telling the truth" or even "stating a complaint" changes into some type of witch hunt from a few that is where I personally draw the line. It is not productive. It is not the goal of this forum. It is not correct either since Alpha Software has specifically put a special service in place to deal with customer complaints and questions. At what point exactly is it ever going to be enough? At what point exactly is something a valid complaint that needs to be shared with other Alpha developers, and at what point exactly is this a business dispute between Alpha Software and a customer that has another place to be dealt with? I don't mind when someone here on the forum says "I have a problem with Alpha and it is so and so". What I do have a problem with is when in several posts over this forum the same issue is coming back and is used to whatever is the subject of the post turn it into a written protest to Alpha.
    Now, I am not saying you should not do that. That is your choice. We are all grown ups here that can make our own choices. Moderators will judge whether the post is acceptable or not. But I personally choose at some point not to be a part of such unproductive movement. I really hope Roberts case gets resolved. I have nothing against Robert personally as I hope to have made clear above. But personally I rather would choose for a productive use of this forum. so I politely am bowing out on this one.

  20. #140
    "Certified" Alphaholic DaveM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Attention Desktop Developers

    Quote Originally Posted by mronck View Post
    Of course, nobody will advocate for "censorship". That is very black-and-white reasoning. There are many colors between black and white.
    Moderation is a part of any forum and is commonly used on most fora that I participate in. The truth must be told, and there should be room for that, even when that implies complaints against the host of the forum, but there is a time and a place for everything. We are guests on this forum and this together with the freedom to say what we want also sets forth that we have a certain responsibility. And it is my personal feeling that with constantly bashing at Alpha Software in numerous posts that all breath the same negative atmosphere we are approaching the limits of what that responsibility asks from us. When "telling the truth" or even "stating a complaint" changes into some type of witch hunt from a few that is where I personally draw the line. It is not productive. It is not the goal of this forum. It is not correct either since Alpha Software has specifically put a special service in place to deal with customer complaints and questions. At what point exactly is it ever going to be enough? At what point exactly is something a valid complaint that needs to be shared with other Alpha developers, and at what point exactly is this a business dispute between Alpha Software and a customer that has another place to be dealt with? I don't mind when someone here on the forum says "I have a problem with Alpha and it is so and so". What I do have a problem with is when in several posts over this forum the same issue is coming back and is used to whatever is the subject of the post turn it into a written protest to Alpha.
    Now, I am not saying you should not do that. That is your choice. We are all grown ups here that can make our own choices. Moderators will judge whether the post is acceptable or not. But I personally choose at some point not to be a part of such unproductive movement. I really hope Roberts case gets resolved. I have nothing against Robert personally as I hope to have made clear above. But personally I rather would choose for a productive use of this forum. so I politely am bowing out on this one.
    I think you missed the point as a whole and in parts. It seems others got it, so I will put it down as a language issue.

    ***As a note: Several versions ago, Alpha decided to let our runtime be on a completely different payment plan than it is now or was before. I(and I know others did the same) attacked them on the issue. We all did it with harsh to soft pounding on and off the forum. I talked to Richard and Selwyn on that issue(others too, I'm sure). It got resolved! My humble opinion was that it would hurt me and could have severely hurt Alpha. That whole deal took about a month and a half to resolve. All to the betterment of everyone at the time.

    I am currently NOT a supporter of the plan thing they have going on, but I could be wrong on that one. I would not go to court on it because I might lose. Yes I have been in court as a defendant over 100 times, but lost only one. I just made sure I could win before I let it go that far.

    Think about that.
    Dave Mason
    dave@aldausa.com
    Skype is dave.mason46

  21. #141
    Member SNusa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Attention Desktop Developers

    I find it extremely odd how many seasoned developers view comments regarding issues with Alpha so "defensively." (or assume they are submitted here for reasons of "personal gain") ~ Not the case here, not in my instance anyways. The ironic (and alarming) part of all of this is: Those who continuously praises Alpha (regardless of what they do/don't do) are not acting in anyone's best interest, not even Alpha's. ~ To do so becomes self defeating in nature, particularly if you are a developer, who's income is largely dependent upon the products that Alpha produces.

    If a software company knows you will both tolerate and be satisfied with unfinished buggy products: That's what you will get. Nobody wants that, right? ~ It doesn't matter whether or not it's on the desktop, or on the web side. Think about this: If Microsoft had perpetually put out products like Dos 4.x, Windows ME & Vista..... Confidence would have eroded, & everyone would either be on a Mac or a Linux OS by now. (I'm not implying that Alpha is in this same "boat", but nevertheless: There is no denying that "it's a struggle" to sell someone on the Alpha platform. And putting out "presumably mature yet unpolished software" and then ignoring/avoiding bug reports only contribute to this problem.) ~ On a larger scale, this behavior is certainly not how a company gains "industry respect."
    Last edited by SNusa; 03-11-2013 at 12:23 AM.
    Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
    It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
    RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

  22. #142
    "Certified" Alphaholic forskare's Avatar
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    Default Re: Attention Desktop Developers

    This has become interesting, to say the least.

    Deleted by Moderator due to quote of personal attack
    This is a direct attack on an individual which is beyond the scope of this forum. The accuser did the same thing of which he accuses Mr. Onck. Like it or not, there is some merit in what he said. There is also merit in what others said, except the above.

    I sincerely hope to be corrected, and that you come in and can contribute in the spirit of this forum.
    The spirit of this forum is certainly NOT what is stated above. In IMHO, not only does Mr. Onck deserve an apology but so do the others on this thread. It's one thing to not agree but another to make it personal.
    Last edited by Peter.Greulich; 03-11-2013 at 10:30 AM.
    TYVM :) kenn

    Knowing what you can achieve will not become reality until you imagine and explore.

  23. #143
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    Default Re: Attention Desktop Developers

    I agree with Ken. The spirit of this forum is in decline. Constructive criticism is fine but many comments here go beyoond what Apha user forums exist for.

    Those concerned should be given warnings that any repetition of such disgraceful attacks on individuals or on Alpha will mean they are banned from all forums in future.

  24. #144
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    Default Re: Attention Desktop Developers

    I disagree! No one, not even me, has gotten anything they didn't earn.

    Raymond Lyons

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