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Attention Desktop Developers

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    #16
    Re: Attention Desktop Developers

    Originally posted by Steve Wood View Post
    Pardon me, is there something wrong with me making this suggestion? I am trying to nudge it from the forum to the front door where it might do some good!
    No of course not with MAKING the suggestion, but the suggestion in itself seems unnecessary. We can keep opening new threads but what good would that do?
    If Bob cares to keep the list in his first post, would that not be all that more clear to anyone instead of having spread all information over 3 threads? Or do I miss the idea??
    Don't take it personal Steve, no need for that....

    Comment


      #17
      Re: Attention Desktop Developers

      I said a new post, not a new thread. A post is in the same discussion (this one). Most users cannot go back and edit their own posts after a period of time, so a new post would likely be required. As moderator, I have the ability to edit any post, so perhaps if someone consolidates the list, then I can update it as needed over the next week or so.
      Steve Wood
      See my profile on IADN

      Comment


        #18
        Re: Attention Desktop Developers

        Don't know if it would help Bob, if he takes up the challenge, but I have built an Alpha e-mail catcher which downloads and stores mail with a specific header into a table as they arrive.
        It's relatively easy to then review the content and end up with a numbered list of requirements.
        Sorry, I cannot send it Bob and am on a tight project so it's just an option.
        See our Hybrid Option here;
        https://hybridapps.example-software.com/


        Apologies to anyone I haven't managed to upset yet.
        You are held in a queue and I will get to you soon.

        Comment


          #19
          Re: Attention Desktop Developers

          Originally posted by Steve Wood View Post
          I said a new post, not a new thread. A post is in the same discussion (this one). Most users cannot go back and edit their own posts after a period of time, so a new post would likely be required. As moderator, I have the ability to edit any post, so perhaps if someone consolidates the list, then I can update it as needed over the next week or so.
          Sounds like a plan to me? Let's await Bob's reaction then.

          Comment


            #20
            Re: Attention Desktop Developers

            Wow thanks for all the thought provoking input.
            I will over the next couple of days try and consolidate the responses.
            Watch this space.
            If anybody wants to send me further thoughts you can use [email protected]
            Bob
            Bob Whitaker

            Comment


              #21
              Re: Attention Desktop Developers

              Originally posted by Finian Lennon View Post
              Is it more work? Absolutely. My guess is that it can take three or four times as long to build the xdialog equivalent of a data entry form than in traditional Alpha.
              Finian,

              As you must know, that's the rub. As Marcel and others have said, most clients won't pay that kind of overhead. And the "form" data entry/edit limitation can be an issue - in certain cases at least. If I estimate 200-hours for a job, I can't tell the client - "If I do it in xdialog, it will only cost you 600-800 hours". I'd be laughed out of town. Either that, or they would slam the door in my face. If Alpha would make xdialog easier to use that might help a lot. But we're a long way from there.
              Peter
              AlphaBase Solutions, LLC

              [email protected]
              https://www.alphabasesolutions.com


              Comment


                #22
                Re: Attention Desktop Developers

                Doesn't every job involve some "investment-time" by the developer? How many traditional Alpha developers know anything about Javascript before they start working on web projects? Xdialogs are only one part of an application and the more you do the less time they take. They are also, in many ways, a lot easier to "recycle" than other Alpha components.

                If an application is to be used by one or two users on one machine then it may not make sense to spend the extra time. On the other hand, does it make sense to build a solution using a construct that just about everyone agrees is inherently flawed?

                I'm not saying that you can't build a stable data entry form that incorporates a browse(s). But it takes a lot more time than most desktop developers will admit and involves programming a plethora of events (for field rules, the form and the browse(s)) without which the form will fall apart when stressed in a heavy-use environment. The time spent developing an xdialog is as nothing when compared to the time it can take to fix a browse that "goes wrong". Add up the time you spend fixing it and ask the client to pay for that.
                Finian

                Comment


                  #23
                  Re: Attention Desktop Developers

                  Yes, Finian, as always your logic is undeniable . But unfortunately that is not how things work surprisingly. Customers do not tend to look at "lifespan economics". They look at purchase price and expect a percentage somewhere between 10 and 20 per year for maintenance. Would you say: "Hey, my product is 10 percent more expensive then the product of John, but it will save you a bundle in the end" my best guess is you will not get half the business as John does. The logic in that is, that most businesses tend to work with budgets (I know you are well aware of that of course). Budgets are tight and it simply is a fact of life that the budget for purchasing something is quite something else as the budget for maintenance. When you want to sell a product, you have competitors that have competing products in the market at sharp prices. Anything you would say to defend a higher salesprice will be looked at with a cynical smile: "yeah, sure.....". Furthermore, who cares since the maintenance budget is another one and sufficient for the cheaper product.

                  Look, I am not trying to fight you here. I do not only respect you for your craftsmanship, but also for your often very logical argumentations. That's why I started my post like I did. All of us can learn heaps from you. Point is, that reality often knocks on your door in an unexpected way.

                  Personally, I invest time in research and I do invest effort into learning new technology. I have done multiple .NET .ASP and C# courses at renown colleges in which thousands of dollars were invested. I do not do so to be able to produce "the cheapest product possible": I don't even want to produce "a product" as much as "a solution" because that is what I really am after: I produce and sell solutions. And to do so I am not affraid to investigate and do research, to learn or even to invest in this very network: the alpha forum by spending time here. So that is not it. Speed is. Speed is everything. The faster you can produce, the faster the customer gets his product and the lower cost will be, the more competitive you are. If you can do so by using XDialog: good for you. Most of us will not except maybe if you are Daniel Weiss. The Dialog component can be a very good substitute for the xdialog as well.

                  Why cling on to old technology why not look behind the horizon for better ways? No, don't throw you old shoes away before the new ones arrived, but there is not much use either in walking around on the old ones until you are bare footed.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Re: Attention Desktop Developers

                    Originally posted by Finian Lennon View Post
                    ... On the other hand, does it make sense to build a solution using a construct that just about everyone agrees is inherently flawed?

                    I'm not saying that you can't build a stable data entry form that incorporates a browse(s). But it takes a lot more time than most desktop developers will admit and involves programming a plethora of events (for field rules, the form and the browse(s)) without which the form will fall apart when stressed in a heavy-use environment. The time spent developing an xdialog is as nothing when compared to the time it can take to fix a browse that "goes wrong". Add up the time you spend fixing it and ask the client to pay for that.
                    I give up (almost!). A form is a from, a browse is a browse and and as long one does not use a browse for data entry, a form (mine at least) is not "inherently flawed" and does not fall apart when stressed (and yes, I used to have an app in a very heavy use environment, though that is no longer true for my apps). That said (and to repeat myself!), I use and like Xdialogs for certain things, even complex things. But here's an interesting fact: the one Xdialog I created that was what I consider to be very complex I had to build on my own dime and then I gave it to my client. He never would have paid me for the time it took. That situation would be different if I were building my own software to sell, but all my work is by the hour for others. In that environment forms generally rule for anything complex.

                    Raymond Lyons

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Re: Attention Desktop Developers

                      Will be to much to ask that the browse in a main form could have more than one line/per record?
                      Other programs do offer that feature.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Re: Attention Desktop Developers

                        Originally posted by Bob Whitaker View Post
                        And when I really go off into fantasy land the ability to move desktop applications to Ipads with local storage - sadly I live in a "Third World" country called Great Britain where mobile internet coverage is at very best patchy and likely to remain so for the foreseeable future so I simply don't buy into this headlong rush for mobile applications that rely on a 3g /4g connection.
                        Single code-base for desktop applications across multiple platforms may in fact be a "pipe-dream" for Alpha5. But the concept does exist on other platforms such as Real Studio. I would think that this could in fact be feasible with an Xbasic "interpreter/emulator." ~ Just as there are DOS emulators for all sorts of different platforms, ie Dr.DOS etc..... (Speed could be a deal breaker here, but maybe not because a5 code is not presently/yet compiled.) Regardless, it's a great concept. (I couldn't agree more.)

                        These are several other things I believe to be important in their respective order of importance:
                        • A fixed browse & scroll. (along with numerous other bug fixes/a5 code "polishing")
                        • Better windows-8 integration & 64bit "future-proofing."
                        • A single .exe file distro would be nice for portable app creation/installation. (Keeping everything in the container with the exception of .dbf tables which extract only in the event .dbf tables are used (added to the container) to store user data.
                        • An Xbasic compiler (which is/was presumably in the works.)

                        Also: How about fixing this dang forum. It's not very re-assuring (for a company in the business of providing database driven desktop & web solutions) to have a forum that perpetually issues an "Invalid access to memory location" error ever other 3'rd or 4'th time you try to submit a post. ~ Especially when there are only 25 people logged in and using it simultaneously!
                        Last edited by SNusa; 02-24-2013, 03:02 PM.
                        Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
                        It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
                        RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Re: Attention Desktop Developers

                          Improve the sliding bar when the form or browsehas been reduced from full view.
                          In many occasions as as you reduce the form/browe down, the sliding bar is not seen properly to the end.
                          Minor, but very annoying when trying to get to the end.
                          Perhaps is a easy to fix.

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Re: Attention Desktop Developers

                            Originally posted by CarverRon View Post
                            Will be to much to ask that the browse in a main form could have more than one line/per record?
                            Other programs do offer that feature.
                            That's a good suggestion. (double the data fields per record one above the other) ~ Kind of like a check journal.
                            Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
                            It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
                            RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Attention Desktop Developers - The Results So Far

                              Much of the discussion centred on the desire to make xdialogue a lot easier and quicker to use in terms of formatting, fonts and colours.
                              Most people seem to want to move away from the �bound objects� paradigm that Alpha uses with its forms etc and move towards Xdialogue with the aim of making systems more cross platform (web and desktop) compatible.

                              Fix the browse once and for all and improve scrolling on large forms

                              Plus Would it be too much to ask that the browse in a main form could have more than one line/per record?

                              Desktop calendar component � preferably with drag and drop functionality

                              Fix or abandon Installmaker (several comments)

                              Simple clean method for updating client systems

                              Compiler � has long been talked about

                              Better support for Windows 8 and guidance for configuring older version to run on Windows 8

                              Improvements to built-in email capability including easier ways to display previous emails and printing of logs plus better support for batch emailing.

                              Ability to auto-add time fields to a dbf using the add-fields function

                              64 bit support

                              Updated styles � dialogues look very dated

                              Ability to use CSS style skins

                              Allow desktop Web components be created in Desktop control panel so you don't have application objects scattered in different places.

                              Improve the control panel so comments can be added etc

                              Cross platform compatability using an Xbasic emulator, Real Studio gaining momentum with this capability

                              Ios capability with local storage � Filemaker GO offers this already and it looks and works very well

                              Attached below (hopefully) is a more complete distillation of the relevant postings
                              Extracts of comments in thread.pdf
                              Bob Whitaker

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Re: Attention Desktop Developers

                                For anybody who is interested in this thread I have started a new thread with the results enclosed.

                                Bob
                                Bob Whitaker

                                Comment

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