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Attention Desktop Developers

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    #61
    Re: Attention Desktop Developers

    I haven't read all the posts but I get really worried when I keep seeing the word "replace"! NO! NO! NO!

    Alpha has generally been pretty good about keeping things backward compatible but every so often they've come up with, or read about, a "better idea" and ended up replacing one feature with another. The new feature is often good but REPLACING the old feature was a bad idea. I'm all for new OPTIONS but don't go around replacing forms with something new or changing the way something works. (1) I don't want to re-write all my existing apps because, for example, today's forms are no longer supported and (2) many lesser "features" can be improved by adding new options but the current option should not be eliminated.

    Examples:

    1. Somebody convinced Alpha to change field lists from "natural order" to "alphabetic order". They did that and I hated it. My fields are often "grouped" (address info all together but not alphabetic) or it's fairly common to want to work with the last field(s) added - but not remember the name of the last field(s) and that makes it difficult when working with an alphabetic list. There were enough complaints to get them to make that choice optional on some of those lists but even today there are still some that are natural order only and some that are alphabetic order only. (I'd still like to see all of them as optional.)

    2. Alpha came up with the ability to move the pop-up calendar and RTF edit button outside the field. That's a nice option BUT it wasn't optional at first and my forms were pretty tight thus causing those buttons to show over top of some other field. This was awkward for users and made the forms look very unprofessional. Thankfully they gave us a way to change that back to the old method.

    I'm absolutely postive there are other examples but can't think of them right now.

    Comment


      #62
      Re: Attention Desktop Developers

      But then again Cal, "replacement" is not really necessary, at least not at first.....

      Technology has a lifetime, that's a general understanding. Things evolve, technology evolves, Alpha evolves. Your own software evolves. So it's not in the fact THAT we/things evolve wherein lies the problem, it's in the speed at which we evolve. Since that may very well cross the lifetime of any specific product developed with an evolving framework.

      Hence, evolving should not be an autonomic thing that "just" happens, and is done simply because "one can" at the time we find "that we can". There is much more to it, and this goes for Alpha Software as well since they are not only selling products to worry about, they are selling products that create other products that are being sold. So that makes it more complex.

      A good term to dissolve these kind of problems is "backward compatibility". This however does not need to exist forever. The feature needs to be in place during a reasonable time covering the lifespan of at least the largest part of the products that are ever produced with it. Hence, if the average secondary produced has a lifespan of 5 years, that ideally should also at least be the span of the backward compatibility feature of the primary product.

      One would expect, that Alpha Software also implements such a policy, and I am sure they do. Point is, that this policy obviously (if we reason from your examples) is not very fine-tuned and that there is work to be done in this area by Alpha Software. This is all a matter of quality control, to see to it that the drive for innovation is kept within boundaries of such a policy. There is no much use in "a hunt for innovation" if what you build upfront destroys what you have in the back as long as that is still in active use. Policies should be there to control such movements in a company that can be very dynamic and persisting.

      It is my believe that any company at some point comes to the realization that quality control is needed, and that it is needed into the depths of the company.

      Comment


        #63
        Re: Attention Desktop Developers

        I agree Marcel.

        The first thing that got me started on this were some comments about "replacing" forms. Unless Alpha also created an automatic update routine, that would create a major issue when attempting to update any existing apps. Unfortunately, Alpha's history (in my opinion) of taking new ideas and implementing them "in place of" instead of "in addition to" existing methods has occassionally been lacking. On the other hand, I also think they've been much better about it in recent years.

        Comment


          #64
          Re: Attention Desktop Developers

          My two cent:
          1)Improve and debug embedded browse!!!
          2)improve and debug embedded browse!!!
          3)improve and debug embedded browse!!!
          4)many other little things, we can call general bugfixes.
          I just want to point out a common misbehaviour for embedded browse. Every time some kind of commit is executed (.commit, table.change_end, etc...) in the form containing the browse, the rows in the browse itself shift their position. This results in a very inconvenient way to manage data for the end user, many times users update the wrong record, or they have to focus many time the correct row in the browse to be sure the right one is selected.
          I developed 3 apps with A5 right now, all the 3 clients call me back after a time to complain this, and I really don't know how to fix, it's impossible. I didn't noticed it because in my tests there were only few records. I'm near despair....
          Plus, you can check the... "data output" bug I spotted out here.

          Comment


            #65
            Re: Attention Desktop Developers

            Hey Enrico.
            I recognize this behavior and have myself tried to resolve this in various ways, but that won't change. I tried several solutions, for instance after a commit point focus on the new record, but the browse still returned to the first value. I know this can be truly frustrating. I would (haven't I before? Hmm....) advise you to let it go, and switch to using instead of the embedded browse a supercontrol with a grid on it. It has a slightly different design, but it's rock solid and does not have these strange affects that the embedded browse has.

            Comment


              #66
              Re: Attention Desktop Developers

              let me think.... mmm... yes, I think you have :-)
              I got your point, maybe it will be the way for the next app.
              Right now I'm stuck with the need to solve or to workaround it, and, as you confirm, the only way is to beg and cry and scream for a fix from the developers.
              It looks like a chorus is raising up, and I want to join with all my far away voice.
              Let's hope..

              Comment


                #67
                Re: Attention Desktop Developers

                Marcel, a question: To show grids on a form I must have the application server active?
                So clients must have an app server running?
                So I need a server licence for every app I install?
                thx, E.

                Comment


                  #68
                  Re: Attention Desktop Developers

                  Originally posted by getaguru View Post
                  Marcel, a question: To show grids on a form I must have the application server active?
                  No, you don't have to have the application server active. You just create your web component (grid, dialog etc) in the web project panel and save it there.
                  Next, you implement the according supercontrol object on your form. In this supercontrol you can point towards the grid you saved and it will show on your form when in view mode.
                  Nothing more to it. The application server does not have to run, because the feature makes good use of the "working preview" protocol which does not use the WAS.
                  So it's very simple, you already have all you need and really are ready for this. Stop pulling out your hair with the embedded browse! You will be bold soon and have gained nothing.
                  Try it! Did I already advised that? Hmmmm.

                  Originally posted by getaguru View Post
                  So clients must have an app server running?
                  No, as said above, the app server (WAS) has no role in this whatever. So your clients do not have to install WAS, they run your app as they would normally do.

                  Originally posted by getaguru View Post
                  So I need a server licence for every app I install?
                  No you don't, but that you already understood when reading the answers above of course.

                  If you need any more good news, just let me know and I will supply it.....

                  Comment


                    #69
                    Re: Attention Desktop Developers

                    Don't know if it helps but winding back to an early release of V11 will fix that problem, but may raise others. We have exactly the same problem and its totally infuriating. The issue of problems with the browse go back as far as I can remember which is many many years.
                    Bob Whitaker

                    Comment


                      #70
                      Re: Attention Desktop Developers

                      this is me
                      To be bold will not be a problem. anymore.
                      :)

                      @Bob
                      one way:revolution!

                      Comment


                        #71
                        Re: Attention Desktop Developers

                        No luck.
                        I tryed different grids in different forms.
                        I keep on having the same results: an internet-explorer-like windows message instead of the grid itself.
                        here:
                        Schermata 2013-03-02 alle 01.06.57.png
                        the translation is "browsing of the web page has been canceled - Possible operations: type the url again"
                        Note: the fact that this message is in Italian, means that it's related to some system browsing components.
                        From other side, internet explorer works flawless, so I guess that A5 needs some kind of server running...

                        Comment


                          #72
                          Re: Attention Desktop Developers

                          What is the experience of those using grids for desktop with DEPLOYMENT to clients.
                          I've heard from some who've tried it and get failures.

                          Comment


                            #73
                            Re: Attention Desktop Developers

                            Enrico, no it does not. In fact, it uses a special protocol to invoke running a browser window from the form. This is called by the "working preview" mode.
                            It works WITHOUT any server. So, if you have your component, you will see a tab right in the windowbar above, left, which says "working preview".
                            If you click this tab, will the component show as expected?
                            If not, something is rotten in Denmark and we should get-a-guru, probably someone from Alpha Five Customer Support.
                            If it does, there you have your proof that the component works without the server being "on".
                            What's next in that case is trying to figure out why your browsers does not operate as expected. Maybe Berlusconi is in the neighborhood?
                            However, your problem NOW has nothing to do with the component being able to run on a form or not. It definitely can without the server being active.
                            Did you have the right supercontrol on your form?
                            Another thing you can try is create another component (the UI Tabbed component) and run the component you created earlier from there. That also works.

                            Comment


                              #74
                              Re: Attention Desktop Developers

                              Originally posted by Ray in Capetown View Post
                              What is the experience of those using grids for desktop with DEPLOYMENT to clients.
                              I've heard from some who've tried it and get failures.
                              Yes, I heard this one echoing around the forum as well. These things kind of become its own truth when enough people repeat it. I have however never been able to distract the exact character of the failure, what people exactly did and why this "failure" would be tied to using the grid component on the desktop. And this all together just makes it another problem with installing applications. As we all know, we can find dozens of customer runtime package installations that somehow failed using the A5 installer. The installer will be discarded all together in v12 and that is not because it runs so perfectly. Until now I have not ever heard any evidence that the installation problems indeed were caused by something related to using the component on the desktop. Which would be strange. One would expect more that if something gets forgotten to be installed that indeed problems arise from that, rather then problems arise from a certain function in Alpha Five. There is no logic in that since the installer does not interpret any of that functions. What I DO hear is that people do not want to invest any time in these issues. That almost never leads to any solution and furthermore keeps the rumor alive. I will in the end find out whether it works or not, but I will not be using the A5 installer. Instead I use a product called "Qsetup" build by Pantaray Research from Israel. I have used their product for many years in many situations and it works every time.

                              Comment


                                #75
                                Re: Attention Desktop Developers

                                you don't have to have the application server active. You just create your web component (grid, dialog etc) in the web project panel and save it there.
                                Next, you implement the according supercontrol object on your form.
                                I (for one) do not have the web component(of any kind) for v11. How are you supposed to make a grid?? There are still errors in making installs with these grids, no matter the method. Until alpha makes that possible with the needed information for installs, I am out.

                                This should be introduced into the list for alpha.

                                alphaworkspace.png
                                Dave Mason
                                [email protected]
                                Skype is dave.mason46

                                Comment

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