Web Components on Desktop

[Simplyred]

Re: Web Components on Desktop

Mick,

We are in agreement on the first item, you have to build the web app. We both said the same thing.

It does not lead to Alpha having a lack of vision because of anything to do with WCD.

Also, its nice to see that the lead singer for Simply Red is now an Alphaphile :). Either this is correct, or you should use your real name.

Well, it's not correct..... The band stopped in 2001.

[forskare]

Re: Web Components on Desktop

[QUOTE=Steve Wood;658579]It does not lead to Alpha having a lack of vision because of anything to do with WCD.QUOTE]

I disagree. Alpha does have a lack of vision. Some time ago, I tooted the horn about Alpha going to a new system, so to speak. I said that the DT, as we know it, is history. That didn't mean the DT would not be sold any longer but rather it would not be developed much further. I was right about that as that is exactly what Alpha has done, and rightfully so. Technology has changed and the DT cannot keep up with it.

Where has Alpha, IMHO, not had a vision? The answer is obvious as Alpha has shown. How so? Well, as said above, there is not a planned route from the DT to WCD. There should be because the web components, for the most part, can be used on or as a desktop without firing up WAS. That said, there are 2 ways the WCD can be used on the desktop. One way is to create a form and embed the web component into the form. However, not all web components will work this way. The other way is to use web components only, no forms except for the opening form. With the DT Alpha has provided a way to open the app with a specific form and another thing to two to allow the app to open seamlessly. Not so with WCD. Alpha has chose to not do that and has not responded to previous remarks or requests for this. That is their prerogative. However, IMHO, that is not only a lack of vision but forces DT users to look for a replacement for Alpha because the current DT will never be more than what it is now. It will not be improved and it will become old technology (which parts of it are already old technology). Thus, it's a dead end. Time to look elsewhere.

It need not be this way. All Alpha has to do, to really make WCD viable, is to create the final steps to allow WCD to open on the desktop without the use of any forms or any old DT technology. That is vision. That is a route to move the DT users to WCD and keep them on board. Is it not?

[Bill Griffin]

Re: Web Components on Desktop

It need not be this way. All Alpha has to do, to really make WCD viable, is to create the final steps to allow WCD to open on the desktop without the use of any forms or any old DT technology. That is vision. That is a route to move the DT users to WCD and keep them on board. Is it not?

It sounds so simple doesn't it. Perhaps it is not a simple as you think. Obviously your vision is not the vision of Alpha. Perhaps Alpha has a better handle on the amount of desktop users that are still developing for the desktop than you do and dumping resources into a shriveling desktop market is not where they want to be. Again, all speculation on my part, but if you look at this forum and compare the number of threads in web vs desktop and how this has shifted over the years show a clear move to Web.

If an application server (or the cost of an application server) was not necessary would you be complaining about Alpha's vision? It all comes down to cost and how Alpha has priced there product to be a profitable business. Is the desktop dead? Of course not. Can Alpha afford to be dumping resources into something that they believe is shrinking? There is only so much any company can do to stay alive and the reasons for focusing on and moving in certain directions are there decision. Everyone is not going to agree with decisions that impact their own business. How many people absolutely HATE(d) Windows 8 when it came out? But MS sunk all of its resources and money to develop/promote ad force it upon the world. Fortunately for you there are alternatives.

[forskare]

Re: Web Components on Desktop

It sounds so simple doesn't it. Perhaps it is not a simple as you think. Obviously your vision is not the vision of Alpha.

Very true, Bill. Very true. It's also true, that while an indication, it would be foolish to say those numbers mean the DT users are dwindling and they are moving to the web. There are other reasons why those numbers are what they are.

Perhaps Alpha has a better handle on the amount of desktop users that are still developing for the desktop than you do and dumping resources into a shriveling desktop market is not where they want to be.

I would hope they would have a much better handle on it than I. I still use Alpha v11 but that doesn't mean I'm not looking elsewhere. It takes time to make a move, especially when I've been using Alpha exclusively for over 20 years. It's not something I take lightly. I have defended Alpha vehemently in the past and will still do so when necessary. However, Alpha has changed its policies and they owe me nothing more than I've purchased along with what they've promised. At this point, because of a subscription, which won't be renewed, they owe me more than I owe them.

So, tell me why you think the DT is shriveling if it's not because it's a dead end. Because something is a dead end doesn't me it no longer exists and there won't be minor changes. It simply means the technology is old and Alpha has chosen to move on with AA. Sure, they still sell it but any serious developer will quickly realize that it's a go no where software.

If an application server (or the cost of an application server) was not necessary would you be complaining about Alpha's vision?

Sorry, I don't follow up on this one. The WAS (and cost) is NOT necessary for me nor is it desired. I don't use Alpha for the web. I do use WCD and like it very much. I believe WCD does have a great future if Alpha were to make it a viable stand alone Operation. granted, I don't know how easy or hard it is for Alpha to make this happen but I do know that if they do, it would not only keep DT users on board and no doubt be add new ones.

It all comes down to cost and how Alpha has priced there product to be a profitable business.

That remains to be seen.

Is the desktop dead? Of course not. Can Alpha afford to be dumping resources into something that they believe is shrinking? There is only so much any company can do to stay alive and the reasons for focusing on and moving in certain directions are there decision. Fortunately for you there are alternatives.

Dead? See above. Alpha does not consider the DT to be dead or alive. But rather a little of both. Originally, Alpha was going to discontinue v11 but because of the hue and cry on the forum, decided to keep selling it. That does not mean they will enhance it or even continue it beyond AA. MY guess is, however, they may well include it as a 'freebie" as they did with AA. They have nothing to loose there.

Yes, there is only so much a company can do to stay alive but "IF" one thing they can do is to allow the current DT users to have a clean move to WCD, would that not be beneficial to Alpha and the DT users? It would produce, IMHO, some sizable income.

[Bill Griffin]

Re: Web Components on Desktop

Ken,

You say that you are limited with using WCD, since not everything is available. If you used an app server, you would remove those limitations, correct? I moved my desktop to web years ago. The desktop has died for me (but that is just me). It is just so much easier for me to deal with changes. As far as why I think it is shriveling, it doesn't matter. It is my perception of what I observe around me and with many of my friends who are developers and in their own businesses. Browser based applications seem to be where we all are.

Again, I think you are speculating as to what you consider "sizable income" with so many unknowns, as am I. Alpha is the only ones who know what and who butters their bread. Many companies do what appear to be strange things when observed from the outside. Unfortunately we are not privy to why decisions are made. Sometimes I scratch my head at things that go on in my own company, till I know the reasoning behind a decison. Remember a company does what a company does for their best interest. That does not always align with what yours or my best interest is. Alpha has made it through many years based on decisions they have made, hopefully they will be around for many more. If they are not, I will find an alternative, and wil not lose any sleep till (if) that time comes.

[Skipperj]

Re: Web Components on Desktop

Please help me clarify all of this.
I have AA on trial. There may be a place for it in the company, but we have not found a place for it yet and maybe I am beating a dead horse.
wcd is slower than a form based application for desktop both in build time and operation(gathered from several posts and internal trial with dbf and sql)?
web apps need a was for 1000.00 +/- to be able to operate?
Based on some of our figures of output at 12 web database apps per year diversified as some for commercial off the shelf and configurable to not, some contracted jobs for fortune 1000/500/100 companies. Explained, the off the shelf selling for at between 60.00 and 300.00 and could sell 3000+ copies a year and can be placed in a lan or a website.
Does the math work?
I am not trying to disregard any help where alpha may fit into our business schema. Just asking.
remember, we have 8 full time programmers and other help and a coordinator that sometimes gets pulled into testing.
Other software is being tested as well as alpha for the best solution as we move away from microsoft products that mostly require a windows server only. We do not want 2-3 different products to worry about, just one good one.

[Peter.Greulich]

Re: Web Components on Desktop

How many people absolutely HATE(d) Windows 8 when it came out? But MS sunk all of its resources and money to develop/promote ad force it upon the world.

Hey Bill, I hear that Win-8 is bombing at the box office.

But seriously, I have to agree with Ken - at least in part. Alpha would be wise to put more effort into WCD. There is a market there, I think. For that matter, there is still a healthy plain-vanilla desktop market as well. It would be in Alpha's interest to not abandon those users. I don't see many desktop platforms out there but people still need and want desktop apps. Serial-port apps won't work through a web interface either.

And yes, by all means continue to support v11, a platform many people really love. Users won't move to v12 until they feel a need or desire to do so. You can't stampede the market, really. There are certain realities that will always take precedent over our ideals.

[forskare]

Re: Web Components on Desktop

If you used an app server, you would remove those limitations, correct?

True, but I do not want to use WAS simply because of the cost. Plus, it's much harder to sell a customer by telling them they must also purchase the WAS and do so every year. It's an expensive cost other platforms don't have.

Again, I think you are speculating as to what you consider "sizable income" with so many unknowns, as am I.

OK, call it significant, adequate or whatever. The point is, income would be created that should not be sneezed at. If Alpha had a way to keep the majority of DT users to WCD, given the number of DT users, that should, at least on paper, produce sizable income, should it not? As a side note, I'm not so sure Id sell WCD, the AA web /mobile app in one package. I would sell it as 3 components, WCDS, AA web and AA mobile with a package deal for any two or all three. But then, it looks good on paper as well.

Skipper, I don't understand what it is for which you need clarification.

[Skipperj]

Re: Web Components on Desktop

Ken,

I went back at your question and it was the answer. Maybe we just needed to ask to understand with no other comment needed.

Thank you

[kkfin]

Re: Web Components on Desktop

Alpha was going to discontinue v11 but because of the hue and cry on the forum, decided to keep selling it.

Is this still true that they sell v11. I do not see it anymore in their web site shop.

edit: This seems to be more IE8 problem....yes link to the v11 is still there.

[Bill Griffin]

Re: Web Components on Desktop

OK, call it significant, adequate or whatever. The point is, income would e created that should not be sneezed at.

Ken,

Your beliefs are based on what YOU believe to be true, not facts (unless you have knowledge of Alpha's customer profile) I think the point I was trying to make is that Alpha's desktop market may not be significant enough to divert limited resources to devote to getting the software to do what you want it to do. (Again speculation) BUT it would make sense if the desktop market was as big as you believe it is that Alpha would capitalize on it. How many DT only customers do you think Alpha has that are actively selling software and making ALPHA money? 10,000, 1000, 100? Think about it. As a small developer you could buy a developer system, get the runtime and that's the last dime Alpha may see from a DT developer. (Talking about the small developer) Great for the small developer, sucks for Alpha. Like I said in a previous post, Alpha is in existence to make money, just as any other business. If they don't make money, they don't exist. Alpha is the only one who knows what these numbers are and I am sure their decisions are based on what they know, not what we you or I believe.

[Ted Giles]

Re: Web Components on Desktop

That is not the way I do it Bill.
I always try and sell AS into clients on the basis that they may want someone else to do the maintenance etc.
Each site I go to where I have an email address created, I download the trial version, so I can spread the newsletters around as well as showing customrrs what they are missing.
The only "one timers" are my free stuff, and even that is so people can see how good the DT can be.

[forskare]

Re: Web Components on Desktop

Bill, you're beating a dead horse. Of course we do not know the numbers. But think about it. Until v10 and v11 when Web really began to be eased in, All of Alpha's customers were DT users. Sure, some dabbled with web and mobile but very few ever launched a web or mobile app which they sold. It simply was not ready for that market. You seem to think that the main reason the numbers on the message board tell the story of a dwindling DT user base. I agree that it's an indicator but not the main factor. If you want to look at those numbers, and I haven't, add up all the DT versions to get some kind of a number of DT users. Even then, that would not be accurate because most users of the DT do not need to post new questions. BTW, who needs to post new questions? DT or Web/Mobile? That reason alone will skew the numbers.

So, what about the dwindling numbers? Let's say the DT users dropped by 50%. Let's also say, in theory there are "x" number of folks who want to use the web components for a new DT (WCD) because it makes for a much better, cleaner DT. How many are there ? Who knows? The point is, there are 50% of the DT users left and a slew of those would probably go to WCD if Alpha would allow the transition to occur. I was given code to put in my WCD autoexec to make half the transition possible. The other half must be Alpha's part and I find it extremely hard to believe it takes a lot of coding to add the "-" and the 'minimize\maximize buttons to the red X which is the only icon in the upper right corner of the screens. For the record, the autoexec code opens a WCD app to a tabbed UI (Main Menu) but the only icon in the upper right corner is the Red X. Thus, if you want to work with something else, you must click the red X which closes the opening screen and takes the user to the Web control panel. So, fix that and add the options to open the WCD in full screen, etc. just like on the DT. Is that such a coding challenge that it would require a huge amount of man hours to accomplish? I think not. Granted, I do not know the details but for the most part, that is all it should take. I find it extremely hard to believe that doing so would not make it financially worth while to alpha.

[Bill Griffin]

Re: Web Components on Desktop

Ken,

You are right, consider the horse buried (please don't drag him out for another beating) Good luck with you future endeavors...

[forskare]

Re: Web Components on Desktop

Bill,

There are many, many folks here who want Alpha to succeed, you and I included. I wish you the best as well.