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Thread: v.11 or v.12 DESKTOP APP build...

  1. #1
    Member SNusa's Avatar
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    Robert Tupper
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    Default v.11 or v.12 DESKTOP APP build...

    There are probably not that many v.12 desktop developers here from v.11 & prior who could answer this question (both objectively and based on experience), but here goes.....

    Given subscription access to both/all of the v.11 and v.12 Alphasoftware tools...

    • If you were ~1/2 way through a project that was (up to this point) built with v.11 (with the intention of using/needing ONLY "classic desktop technology" presently available in v.11 for the desktop side.)
    • AND you had a solid understanding (with years of familiarity) of the "classic a5 desktop" (along with a good understanding of xBasic)
    • AND the desktop side was using .dbf as a back-end. (to begin with anyways)
    • BUT you did not have "xDialog under your belt" (aside from tweaking code here and there) so to speak....
    • WITH the intentions of possibly building the web-side component as a future project in v.12+ (completely separately) to keep things "modular."

    Would you finish the desktop project using v.11, or would you move it to v.12 and "never look back?" (and why?)

    PS: It's worth noting that the desktop component would be built for general distribution: I did read that the AA Application Server (which I have) includes a "free tool" so that anyone can distribute fully functional desktop applications "freely." I need to know more about this aspect too. ~ As noted, my intentions are to "freely distribute" a desktop component as proof of concept, to ultimately help "sell" my idea/finished product. I know I can do this in v.11, because of the "Unlimited Runtime license."

    I ask this because I have v.12 sitting in front of me. (Technically, I have had access to v.12 since it was in beta this past spring.) ~ But if there are no immediate benefits, I'm completely fine with the notion of waiting to even install v.12..... (at least until the desktop portion of this project nears completion)

    I kind of feel like a race-car driver who "caught neutral while pushing for 3'rd gear." (And I don't want to "catch reverse" by accident!)
    Last edited by SNusa; 01-07-2014 at 03:50 PM.
    Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
    It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
    RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Rhetorical question: v.11 or v.12 DESKTOP APP build...

    I would go V12 - as far as distribution, I suspect you will have to create an installer for it, just like past versions
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  3. #3
    Member SNusa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rhetorical question: v.11 or v.12 DESKTOP APP build...

    So my "interpretation" of the Alpha Anywhere Runtime (for v.12 allowing unlimited distribution of desktop applications) is correct? That is good news!
    Of course I'll need to choose "the right" installer once "the time comes".... Or possibly I can even use the v.11 installer, providing I stay "100% classic" and don't use any of the WDC features I've read about. (my intentions anyways)

    I've heard others who have successfully "backtracked" down to v.10 with "v.11 workspaces" due to various compatibility issues. (And they didn't have the problems I would have expected.) ~ Something that I would have never considered even trying to do.

    Any major "migratory speed-bumps" I need to be concerned with while using "classic desktop" in v.12?
    Last edited by SNusa; 01-07-2014 at 04:24 PM.
    Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
    It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
    RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

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    Default Re: Rhetorical question: v.11 or v.12 DESKTOP APP build...

    I've had to commit time & money to V12 as V11 is no longer updated by Alpha - even for bugs introduced in the last released live version. All the bugs I identified in my V11 projects are fixed in V12 and I made no changes to the code to get it to work on V12.

    If you have a V12 runtime license (mine was on the email with the dev & app server licenses) then I can see absolutely no reason not to move over to V12, and several 'never to be fixed' bugs in V11 that could cause you major headaches if you stay there.

    FYI we currently have one client running the project using the V11 constructed code with one user on the V12 runtime. Plan is to migrate code and runtimes to V12 for all users later this week if no problems over the next couple of days.

  5. #5
    Member SNusa's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rhetorical question: v.11 or v.12 DESKTOP APP build...

    That's good news Jon. (I also have v.12)

    With regards to the v.12 runtime. Is it in fact "unlimited?" (Like v.11, does it permit you to distribute apps "unrestricted?") ~I haven't installed the runtime yet, but I did install v.12 yesterday & found several bugs still present, like trying to duplicate mapped tables which I reported last January I believe.

    If you wouldn't mind, could you elaborate on the bugs you know were fixed in v.12 (I'd like to compare them against my notes/list of bugs reported and unfixed in v.11.)

    Thanks, Robert
    Robert T. ~ "I enjoy manipulating data... just not my data."
    It's all about the "framework." (I suppose an "a5-induced" hard drive crash is now in order?)
    RELOADED: My current posting activity here merely represents a "Momentary Lapse Of Reason."

  6. #6
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    Default Re: v.11 or v.12 DESKTOP APP build...

    Robert, as far as I'm aware the runtime is on the same license as the V11, so yes, unlimited.

    V11 bugs fixed in V12 that I'm aware of are the 'access denied' errors when using web components in IE11 and the unpredictable scrolling of a browse after a row is updated - this is apparently fixed in the latest V11 build, but I'm definitely not happy pushing that out to any customers.

    I'm sure there was another, but can't think of it, and your list doesn't ring any bells.

  7. #7
    "Certified" Alphaholic Ray in Capetown's Avatar
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    Default Re: v.11 or v.12 DESKTOP APP build...

    I remember Richard stating on this forum, last quarter last year, that v12 developer INCLUDES RUNTIME.
    In the latest "limited offer" this states otherwise. Dated Jan 8

    Upgrade now for just $698 →

    Developer Edition only just $299 →

    *The Developer Edition only option does not include the
    Runtime, App Server or Amazon gift card.
    *Please allow up to 21 days to receive your Amazon gift card.
    What are we to assume going forward? Buying developer does not guarantee runtime?

  8. #8
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    Default Re: v.11 or v.12 DESKTOP APP build...

    As the runtime isn't (last time I looked) in the shop, I can only assume that the full price developer includes the runtime. If you purchase via 'special offer' you get what's included in that offer.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: v.11 or v.12 DESKTOP APP build...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray in Capetown View Post
    I remember Richard stating on this forum, last quarter last year, that v12 developer INCLUDES RUNTIME.
    In the latest "limited offer" this states otherwise. Dated Jan 8


    What are we to assume going forward? Buying developer does not guarantee runtime?
    Yes Richard did state runtime was included with developer. I was the one who asked about it. However I believe it was in one of the threads that was removed.

    However now on the purchase page the mention of runtime is in the description for the application server. So it appears that runtime must now be purchased separately.
    Andrew

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    "Certified" Alphaholic Ted Giles's Avatar
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    Default Re: v.11 or v.12 DESKTOP APP build...

    The Introductory Pricing suggests a free AppServer which also includes the RunTime engine according to the text.
    That makes it $999 for both under the special offer by my reckoning.
    1 appserver for the web, and unlimited distribution of desktop?
    Ted Giles
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: v.11 or v.12 DESKTOP APP build...

    Is there a version of alpha where I can use the browse control with no bugs? If it is V3 then I will go back to the pre-historic just to use it on the Desktop. @SNusa, it is better to completely leave alpha(any version) if you are developing on the desktop side, you see, alpha is in full swing on the web and mobile because they say it is the future (they are correct) I managed to learn and create a desktop app using Visual Basic .net and SQL server express 2012 with no problems and no bugs (for now). I am now creating a Web app using Alpha V12. Say goodbye to alpha if you are creating a desktop app once and for all!

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    Default Re: v.11 or v.12 DESKTOP APP build...

    Say goodbye to alpha if you are creating a desktop app once and for all!
    Hhmm.. that's your opinion, not mine. The browse control has always been problematic but you can still use it. Experience teaches how you can use it. I have a number of clients going strong on the desktop with no plans to change.

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    Default Re: v.11 or v.12 DESKTOP APP build...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter.Greulich View Post
    Hhmm.. that's your opinion, not mine. The browse control has always been problematic but you can still use it. Experience teaches how you can use it. I have a number of clients going strong on the desktop with no plans to change.
    Hmmm.. I did'nt say its your opinion, it's mine. I have some clients going very very strong on other platforms other than alpha on the desktop. Unless Alphasoftware company will support desktop again, but hey, they are going forward to the right direction.

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    Default Re: v.11 or v.12 DESKTOP APP build...

    You made an emphatic statement: "Say goodbye to alpha if you are creating a desktop app once and for all!"

    I disagree.

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    Default Re: v.11 or v.12 DESKTOP APP build...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter.Greulich View Post
    You made an emphatic statement: "Say goodbye to alpha if you are creating a desktop app once and for all!"

    I disagree.
    I mean say Goodbye to Alpha on the Desktop side. For mobile and web development, I am on my way to creating a great Web App Using Alpha Anywhere.

  16. #16
    "Certified" Alphaholic
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    Default Re: v.11 or v.12 DESKTOP APP build...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter.Greulich View Post
    Hhmm.. that's your opinion, not mine. The browse control has always been problematic but you can still use it. Experience teaches how you can use it. I have a number of clients going strong on the desktop with no plans to change.
    By the way, why would someone should hang on for the browse control that has been problematic? Well, for experience users like you said, you can use it. but for new users, why would they bother to learn and gain experience to use it. Go for another and use Alpha Anywhere where it is best suited for (Web and Mobile).

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    "Certified" Alphaholic Ray in Capetown's Avatar
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    Default Re: v.11 or v.12 DESKTOP APP build...

    I didn't include the full thing Ted, that 'UPGRADE NOW $699" includes Developer edition as well. The full package.
    Just can't get Runtime without buying App Server. I don't know how that relates - they don't belong together.

  18. #18
    "Certified" Alphaholic Ray in Capetown's Avatar
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    Default Re: v.11 or v.12 DESKTOP APP build...

    Quote Originally Posted by JetLi View Post
    By the way, why would someone should hang on for the browse control that has been problematic? Well, for experience users like you said, you can use it. but for new users, why would they bother to learn and gain experience to use it. Go for another and use Alpha Anywhere where it is best suited for (Web and Mobile).
    I have a diametrically opposed view. AA for web for non programmer yes. For professional programmers , APP server and hosting costs sounds too restrictive. The younger professionals in my circle, working with PHP, Ruby, XML and newer J.. tools easily available are building original, purpose built, solid low cost to host, web apps. I can point you to some of these sites.

    On the other hand , in my chosen field, for me desktop with Alpha gets me spot on with what I propose to clients... meaning I can promise and deliver with precision, the most solid and seamless experience. And yes, it does not come quick and easy, you have to fiddle a lot with things to perfect them to that degree. Taming the browse and xdialog browses plays a major part in delivering hard to beat resilience and functionality. I get repeat business for new developments from clients once they experience the practical benefits.

    My own experience and opinion.

    PS. One day it could even become profitable
    Last edited by Ray in Capetown; 01-12-2014 at 03:43 AM. Reason: PS

  19. #19
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    Default Re: v.11 or v.12 DESKTOP APP build...

    Quote Originally Posted by Ray in Capetown View Post

    I have a diametrically opposed view. AA for web for non programmer yes. For professional programmers , APP server and hosting costs sounds too restrictive. The younger professionals in my circle, working with PHP, Ruby, XML and newer J.. tools easily available are building original, purpose built, solid low cost to host, web apps. I can point you to some of these sites.

    On the other hand , in my chosen field, for me desktop with Alpha gets me spot on with what I propose to clients... meaning I can promise and deliver with precision, the most solid and seamless experience. And yes, it does not come quick and easy, you have to fiddle a lot with things to perfect them to that degree. Taming the browse and xdialog browses plays a major part in delivering hard to beat resilience and functionality. I get repeat business for new developments from clients once they experience the practical benefits.

    My own experience and opinion.

    PS. One day it could even become profitable
    Good luck!

  20. #20
    "Certified" Alphaholic Ted Giles's Avatar
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    Default Re: v.11 or v.12 DESKTOP APP build...

    I think I'm with you Ray. The browse has sometimes caused me a few problems, but they were overcome easily.
    I'm still on the fence re AS and Web. It's a money issue for me and there are, as the lady said in Mexico, "too many moving parts".
    I will need to decide soon, as one of my clients wants a web front end and mobile access also.
    Not sure they will pay for a separate WAS licence as they already have a web shop running on something else. (Not a clue what it is). Not sure they would go for a subscription license either, which leaves them open to price rises.
    I suppose I could ask for a special deal from AS for V12 and the Server, but the bundling of the RT and server has me confused. Porting to V12 would be an option, but work I'd rather not have to do at present.
    JL is on my stop list so unless I get mentioned in a Quote, I ignore those posts.
    In an ideal world, if AS went back to the one price for everything, I'd be happier.
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    "Certified" Alphaholic Ray in Capetown's Avatar
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    Default Re: v.11 or v.12 DESKTOP APP build...

    Quote Originally Posted by JetLi View Post
    Good luck!
    Thanks Jet, fortunately luck has very little to do with it.
    Ted, let us know how you go with that.

  22. #22
    "Certified" Alphaholic Ted Giles's Avatar
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    Default Re: v.11 or v.12 DESKTOP APP build...

    I might just be in SA during the year on route to Zim.
    How close are you to the Airport?
    A beer would be good and old war stories!
    Ted Giles
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    "Certified" Alphaholic Ray in Capetown's Avatar
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    Default Re: v.11 or v.12 DESKTOP APP build...

    How splendid would that be?
    I am <20 mins from Capetown international, however connecting for Zim would likely be through Jhb which is 1400 km for me.

  24. #24
    "Certified" Alphaholic Ted Giles's Avatar
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    Default Re: v.11 or v.12 DESKTOP APP build...

    I'll look at flights then, Ray. Would be good to meet up.
    I am in no hurry.
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