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Thread: Some Advice Needed!

  1. #1
    "Certified" Alphaholic Charles Hoens's Avatar
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    Default Some Advice Needed!

    Hello all!

    I have a client I've created a small app for in Desktop V11. He liked it and wanted his office staff of 10 to use it, so I put it on a server, created a shared drive and let everyone access it via Runtime.

    So far...so good. But, as with all things, nothing stands still and the next thing he asked was for me to make this app available to several off-site locations. So now, I'm not really sure what to do. I asked one of the members on this forum, that I very much respect, about various shared drives and he gave me some ideas, but it seemed to raise even more questions in my mind, so I thought I'd ask all of you who I think so highly of....what would be the best solution? I don't want to move (as of yet) to a webserver app, as that will take some time for me to produce.

    I've looked at Google (which seems to have several problems of control), Bicasa and some others like it, which are actually file sharing/transfer. What I think I need is a cloud drive that the remote users can use as they would any local drive.

    But I just don't know and I need help on this. Thanks for any ideas/thoughts or suggestions.

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    Default Re: Some Advice Needed!

    Charles,
    The most logical is to build a web app for the customer so all can get to the data and it will use a browser. I do know that you did not want to hear that, but it is coming from a desktop person here.

    I have a couple customers that use tunneling for a boss to see what is going on, but generally it is only one(maybe 2) person(s) and was set up by their own it guy. I was not involved except a little and long distance.
    Dave Mason
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    "Certified" Alphaholic Ray in Capetown's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some Advice Needed!

    Dave nice to "see" you again.
    Charles other than web app your best bet is thin client/server like a Citrix. There are other products. Depends how many remote users concurrent. If few and far between play with Teamviewer to get an idea to begin with.
    A cloud drive would only drive the users nuts.

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    "Certified" Alphaholic DaveM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some Advice Needed!

    Good to see you as well Ray.
    Dave Mason
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    Skype is dave.mason46

  5. #5
    Member preston2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some Advice Needed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Hoens View Post
    Hello all!

    So far...so good. But, as with all things, nothing stands still and the next thing he asked was for me to make this app available to several off-site locations. So now, I'm not really sure what to do. I asked one of the members on this forum, that I very much respect, about various shared drives and he gave me some ideas, but it seemed to raise even more questions in my mind, so I thought I'd ask all of you who I think so highly of....what would be the best solution? I don't want to move (as of yet) to a webserver app, as that will take some time for me to produce.

    I've looked at Google (which seems to have several problems of control), Bicasa and some others like it, which are actually file sharing/transfer. What I think I need is a cloud drive that the remote users can use as they would any local drive.

    But I just don't know and I need help on this. Thanks for any ideas/thoughts or suggestions.
    This is something I am actually testing right now with my desktop app and I must say it is working great.

    The computer with the main data and all the remote computers must have access to the internet.

    It is very simple to setup this up. No need for a web app.

    But right now I have a meeting I need to get ready for so I will outline the process when I get back.

  6. #6
    "Certified" Alphaholic Ted Giles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some Advice Needed!

    There goes the neighbourhood!
    Welcome back Dave.
    Preston, this will be great to follow if you have time to expand.
    Ted Giles
    Example Consulting - UK
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    See our site for Alpha Support, Conversion and Upgrade.

  7. #7
    Member preston2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some Advice Needed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Giles View Post
    Preston, this will be great to follow if you have time to expand.
    The basic setup is just like you would do with any network setup of a desktop app where you put the master database setup on a computer, server or shared drive and then each additional computer would be setup as a workstation using a shadow of the database.

    So here is the twist. You setup the main database on a cloud drive. Two that I am using for my testing right now are Google Drive and Microsoft's OneDrive. Google Drive allows for "Sharing" so that means each computer can be setup to sync with different Google Drive account credentials as long as they have been placed in the share list by the holder of the main Google Drive account. I have not really tested with OneDrive yet but I am sure they also have some kind of sharing security as well.

    For the computer I wanted to access the app and act as the master I set the desktop icon like this.
    Code:
    Target = C:\QQ32\system\Alpha5.exe "C:\Users\ShopCal\Google Drive\QQ32\QQ32.adb" -INCLUDE="C:\Users\ShopCal\Google Drive\QQ32\QQ.startup"
    Start in = C:\QQ32
    Where C:\QQ32\system is where the runtime or A5 developer is located on the master computer and C:\Users\ShopCal\Google Drive\QQ32 is where the database and any support directories are located.
    On the workstations I setup Google Drive and set it to sync with the Google Cloud Drive that houses the database and support folders.

    Once the Google Drive had synced I installed the app as a shadow and when selecting the main database location I selected the Google Drive location.
    The desktop icon setting on the shadow machines would be like this.
    Code:
    Target = C:\QQ32\Alpha5.exe "C:\QQ32\QQ32.adb" - INCLUDE="C:\QQ32\QQ.startup"
    Start in = C:\QQ32
    Once you get the database uploaded to Google Drive and the initial syncs are done it becomes very fast with the syncing being as instant as if you had setup a regular network database with shadow workstations.

    I am now working on a method of allowing the shadow machine to actually work offline if needed and then re-sync to the main database once they gain internet access again. This is not something most would need but I want to get it working for shops that may have traveling sales people.
    Last edited by preston2; 02-26-2014 at 11:55 PM.

  8. #8
    "Certified" Alphaholic Ted Giles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some Advice Needed!

    This is a truly outstanding concept, and one which will enable all DT developers who were wary of WAS, to use and deploy their apps.
    Well done and good luck with the experimenting!
    Ted Giles
    Example Consulting - UK
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    http://ec12.example-software.com//
    See our site for Alpha Support, Conversion and Upgrade.

  9. #9
    Member preston2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some Advice Needed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Giles View Post
    This is a truly outstanding concept, and one which will enable all DT developers who were wary of WAS, to use and deploy their apps.
    Well done and good luck with the experimenting!
    I am exited about it myself because it works so well. Also Google Drive is free up to 15gb storage and Onedrive is free up to 7gb storage so there is more then enough free storage available for several apps.

    We did a test last night. Me in Texas and one of my friends in Tennessee both working in the same app at the same time and it was just like as if he was on my LAN here.

    The only issue I have right now is I was going to check into the calender add on for A5 desktop apps and it seems Alpha has removed all links to anything except Alpha Anywhere web stuff. I just do not understand why they drop total support of any thing except their latest subscription offerings.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Some Advice Needed!

    I like this thread. Now you got me thinking of alternative ways to update an app from a website. But I don't how to check if a file exists on the internet.

    How would the following need to be changed to check for a file on the web?

    Code:
    filename = "http://www.alphasoftware.com"
    result = file.exists(filename)
    if result = .F. then
        ui_msg_box("","File does not exist. "filename)  
    else
        ui_msg_box("","File Exists")
    end if
    
    END
    Thanks ~ Tom

  11. #11
    Member preston2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some Advice Needed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Patten View Post
    I like this thread. Now you got me thinking of alternative ways to update an app from a website. But I don't how to check if a file exists on the internet.

    How would the following need to be changed to check for a file on the web?

    Thanks ~ Tom
    If you are talking about having your app check for updates you put out then that is easy if you use a 3rd party installer for deploying your app. I went the 'try and get Alpha to do it" way and gave up as it seemed too complected for my taste right now.

    I was using Astrum for packaging my apps but they shut their websites down and their Autoupdater checks those sites for updates as well so you get two different error messages.

    I moved over to Actual Installer and the Update feature works perfect. You just have the installer include the uninstaller and the update features. Then you create a txt file on your web hosting with something like this in it.

    Code:
    3.2.20140211
    http://www.yoursite.com/update-3.2.20140211.exe
    Where the first line is the new version number of your software and the second line is the link for the update exe file. When they check for updates it will read that file and if the version number is higher then the one they have it will allow them to download the update and install it.

    I have it to where only the master copy installer of my app can actually check for and install updates. The workstations have the button but it will not do anything so a shadow cannot update the app.

  12. #12
    "Certified" Alphaholic
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    Default Re: Some Advice Needed!

    I'm thinking of another variation.

    I have mostly single users using my app. I'd like for them to install it on their local drive, then have the autoexec file check for updates on my website and update if a file exists. But I can't figure out the code to check a website for a file_exists() function. The code below does not work.

    filename = "http://www.alphasoftware.com"
    result = file.exists(filename)
    if result = .F. then
    ui_msg_box("","File does not exist. "filename)
    else
    ui_msg_box("","File Exists")
    end if

    END

    Suggestions?

    ~ Tom

  13. #13
    Member preston2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some Advice Needed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Patten View Post
    I'm thinking of another variation.

    I have mostly single users using my app. I'd like for them to install it on their local drive, then have the autoexec file check for updates on my website and update if a file exists. But I can't figure out the code to check a website for a file_exists() function. The code below does not work.

    Suggestions?

    ~ Tom

    Most of my customers are single pc installs as well.

    Just checking for a file name on the web would be sketchy at best. You would either need to know the file name of your next update in advance so you could code it into your app each time or use the same filename all the time and then how would your script know if they already installed it or not and then what happens the next time you have an update?

    I asked a similar question way back when I was trying to figure this out and was pointed to

    http://www.learnalpha.com/WebBrowser.pdf

    and

    http://wiki.alphasoftware.com/~alpha..._POST+Function

    Both of which did not fit my needs.

    If you just want to go real simple create a button that takes them to a webpage with links to all your updates so they can download the one they need. You could even do that with some script or a function in the autoexec script.

    I went with letting the installer create and manage all update info. Much easier.

    But we are getting off topic from what Charles originally asked.

  14. #14
    Member preston2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some Advice Needed!

    Quote Originally Posted by preston2 View Post
    I am now working on a method of allowing the shadow machine to actually work offline if needed and then re-sync to the main database once they gain internet access again. This is not something most would need but I want to get it working for shops that may have traveling sales people.
    I have come up with a simple solution to this. I will use the HOSTAVAILABLE() function to make sure the mobile workstation has an internet connection and if not they will not be able to enter or change any quotes/invoices.

    The cost for mobile wifi is so cheap now days any roaming sales person should be able to afford it. Heck for $10.00 more a month I can add data to my smart phone which is then capable of becoming my own personal hotspot for web access. Or if I was a real cheap sales person I could meet my customer at Starbucks, McDonnalds, Lowes, Krogers or any of the other free wifi hotspots out there. I could even take my customer to lunch at my favorite mexican restaurant and use their free wifi hotspot. I think I am going to test that just so I can eat some good food for dinner this weekend.

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    Default Re: Some Advice Needed!

    As a suggestion, you might like to setup your opening form with an active x control that would point to your website page with update information. This would be presented before you start the program. The end user can view this page and then decide if they have the most current software by simply looking at the release date or version.

    Some assumptions in this are:

    You have an about box that shows the version of your software
    You have a release date
    On the opening form you place a button that starts the program

    Optionally, you can place another button that opens internet explorer or firefox or whatever browser you're using to go full screen in viewing the web page mentioned above.

    Optionally, have a button showing version and date on this opening form.

    Many people are visually oriented and like to see that they are "connected" to you/your company. The download page on your website can also act as a information page for other "addons" that you make for the software.

    Enjoy and happy programming.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Some Advice Needed!

    Wayne - good idea. I can use the following to test for a connection to a website:

    Code:
    DIM web_url as c
    web_url = "www.alphasoftware.com"
    
    result = hostavailable(web_url)
    
    if result = .F. then
        ui_msg_box("","File does not exist at "+web_url)  
    else
        ui_msg_box("","File Exists "+web_url)
    end if
    But I don't know how to test if a file_exists() on a website Any ideas?

    Tom

  17. #17
    "Certified" Alphaholic Stan Mathews's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some Advice Needed!

    Do you run an ftp server on your site?

    I came across an idea today. Use FTP_GET_LIST() and parse the result for the desired file.
    There can be only one.

  18. #18
    "Certified" Alphaholic DaveM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some Advice Needed!

    You can go further than that, set the download page up with a 3 wide table. Download stuff on left, center for notices and right collum for ads like google adsense.

    you might like to setup your opening form with an active x control that would point to your website page with update information. This would be presented before you start the program. The end user can view this page and then decide if they have the most current software by simply looking at the release date or version.
    This can also be done from an html file that always gets downloaded on start of app from the runtime.

    I can even make an exe(you can to) to start the runtime and app on the desktop.
    Dave Mason
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  19. #19
    "Certified" Alphaholic Mike Wilson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some Advice Needed!

    Great thread...but...Why do Dave, Ted, and Preston all have the same Avitar?
    Last edited by Mike Wilson; 03-01-2014 at 09:14 AM.
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  20. #20
    "Certified" Alphaholic Ted Giles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some Advice Needed!

    Mike, take a look at;

    www.applicationallstars.com

    We are a group selling our software, sharing experiences and picking up work..
    Ted Giles
    Example Consulting - UK
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    http://ec12.example-software.com//
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    Default Re: Some Advice Needed!

    Stan - I can't get ftp to work. What am I missing. Using the example in the docs and the code above I get the following.

    Code:
    DIM web_url as c
    web_url = "www.alphasoftware.com"
    
    result = hostavailable(web_url)
    
    if result = .F. then
        ui_msg_box("","File does not exist at "+web_url)  
    else
        ui_msg_box("","File Exists "+web_url)
    end if
    
    string = ftp_get_list(web_url, "alphadoc2", "@lph@5", "/products/review", .t.) 'www.alphasoftware.com"
    
    ui_msg_box("",string)
    Sorry if I'm hijacking this thread, but I find this topic very interesting.

    ~ Tom

  22. #22
    "Certified" Alphaholic DaveM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some Advice Needed!

    We do??
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Wilson View Post
    Great thread...but...Why do Dave, Ted, and Preston all have the same Avitar?
    Dave Mason
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  23. #23
    Member preston2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some Advice Needed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Patten View Post
    Sorry if I'm hijacking this thread, but I find this topic very interesting.

    ~ Tom
    Simple, start a new thread to talk about checking for a file on a website.

  24. #24
    "Certified" Alphaholic DaveM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some Advice Needed!

    Tom, some of the later versions of windows have a way to map a drive via ftp and other, not just local computers. I am working on win8.1 right now and I think win7 has it.

    No, I have not tackled it yet, but found it.

    I would believe it to be a lot easier if the site is a disk drive letter.

    Want to test that? http://www.smarterasp.net has a free small space that should work for testing. I would want a larger space for production though.
    Last edited by DaveM; 03-01-2014 at 01:21 PM.
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  25. #25
    Member preston2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some Advice Needed!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Patten View Post
    I like this thread. Now you got me thinking of alternative ways to update an app from a website. But I don't how to check if a file exists on the internet.

    How would the following need to be changed to check for a file on the web?

    Code:
    filename = "http://www.alphasoftware.com"
    result = file.exists(filename)
    if result = .F. then
        ui_msg_box("","File does not exist. "filename)  
    else
        ui_msg_box("","File Exists")
    end if
    
    END
    Thanks ~ Tom

    The answer on how to do it. http://forum.applicationallstars.com....php?f=19&t=64

  26. #26
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    Default Re: Some Advice Needed!

    Thought I'd give this a go on Google Drive to see what happens when 2 different users enter (for instance) a payment record at about the same time. As I suspected both records were given the same record ID.

    I don't see any way this can be resolved if using Google Drive as there are multiple copies of both data and INDEX files (one on each PC plus the master database) which are not always fully synched.

    Indeed, the conflict between the 2 entries I made was resolved by Google by overwriting the older file with the newest. One has to assume that as Google Drive is working at file level with any data that it doesn't understand that this will always be the case - I've not had an opportunity to see if there are any options to give the user the opportunity to resolve conflicts.

    Great idea, but to allow multiple users update access would require a complete redesign of my app, probably using temporary tables to store any remote updates that could then be applied centrally when received during synch.

    Would be worth looking for a similar service that doesn't cache the central data on the local PC to see if it works.

  27. #27
    "Certified" Alphaholic Ray in Capetown's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some Advice Needed!

    Without central data cache (ie no shadow DB) then all data would require referncing from the server - I would expect painfully slow with huge bandwidth.
    I would imagine that updating would have to be constructed in the form of batch data updates (like with older accounting systems methodology) - still not out of the ballpark. It is worth strategising if that is the only discovered shortfall.

    Maybe, as a worst case example
    I wrote some years back, days of dial-up modems, an offline POS system where remote edits of master data were stored locally in tables of the same structure, new transactions similarly handled. When these files upload, check first they don't exist at the server while another terminal was updating, then do all the updating.

    All depends on what the application is.

  28. #28
    Member preston2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Some Advice Needed!

    Quote Originally Posted by WokingJon View Post
    Thought I'd give this a go on Google Drive to see what happens when 2 different users enter (for instance) a payment record at about the same time. As I suspected both records were given the same record ID.

    I don't see any way this can be resolved if using Google Drive as there are multiple copies of both data and INDEX files (one on each PC plus the master database) which are not always fully synched.

    Indeed, the conflict between the 2 entries I made was resolved by Google by overwriting the older file with the newest. One has to assume that as Google Drive is working at file level with any data that it doesn't understand that this will always be the case - I've not had an opportunity to see if there are any options to give the user the opportunity to resolve conflicts.

    Great idea, but to allow multiple users update access would require a complete redesign of my app, probably using temporary tables to store any remote updates that could then be applied centrally when received during synch.

    Would be worth looking for a similar service that doesn't cache the central data on the local PC to see if it works.
    This may be a solution. The example is with Skydrive , now Onedrive, but there should be a similar way to do it with Google Drive.
    http://blogs.clariusconsulting.net/k...ve-in-windows/

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Some Advice Needed!

    I would use Terminal Services - however, if there are a lot of remote users (in excess of 13 concurrent) you will have to go to a farm of servers. Say the client wants 10 local and 50 remote you may be better advised to go to the web.

    A few years ago Costco had a system that had 175 concurrent remote users, but they had an 800,000 budget for the project.
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  30. #30
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    Default Re: Some Advice Needed!

    Quote Originally Posted by WokingJon View Post
    Thought I'd give this a go on Google Drive to see what happens when 2 different users enter (for instance) a payment record at about the same time. As I suspected both records were given the same record ID.

    I don't see any way this can be resolved if using Google Drive as there are multiple copies of both data and INDEX files (one on each PC plus the master database) which are not always fully synched.
    In my testing one pc was the master and two others where setup as shadows. When you setup a shadow on a normal network it creates a copy of the DB files and stores them on the shadow machine. The shadow updates the files local to it and then they sync to the master. The only difference with the Google Drive setup is sending that sync request across the internet instead of an intranet. I have had two of the machines, the master and one shadow create invoices at as close to the same time as I could and there was no conflict. Both machines where updated to see each others new invoice. I do not know if there is a setting or I am just being lucky but so far my test have resulted in Google drive syncing to all machines so fast I would have to say it was instant.

    But to take this whole experiment one step in a sideways direction I am now testing mapping a drive letter to a ftp site. Doing it this way there is no local folder in between. The ftp site looks and acts just like a local dive on your pc. Will see how this goes.

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