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Thread: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

  1. #91
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by coleresources View Post
    As a subscriber will I be able to convert my standard WAS license to the IIS plugin version of the WAS without having to spend any additional money or is it going to be an added cost?
    I was very disappointed to find out that there would be an additional charge of $1,000.00 for me. I am 'subscribed' until 2018.
    Win 10 64 Development, Win 7 64 WAS 11-1, 2, Win 10 64 AA-1,2, MySql, dbForge Studio The Best MySQL GUI Tool IMHO. http://www.devart.com/dbforge/mysql/studio/

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by frankbicknell View Post
    I was very disappointed to find out that there would be an additional charge of $1,000.00 for me. I am 'subscribed' until 2018.

    When I did few years ago subscribe KendoUI there was infact just one product KendoUI. Today there is KendoUI, UI for PHP, UI for JSP and UI for MVC available. All from original KendoUI but now all separate products. So I have just KendoUI.

    Telerik is big company and it has large user base . I hope Alpha has resources to develop and maintain different products and add value to them all and I hope their user base is big enough to this separation.

    I am sure that the basic problem with subscription model is that many users will pass one year regularly as I do with KendoUI. But Telerik is big company they can handle it.

  3. #93
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    What Alphasoftware has done with their subscription model is not new almost all vendors did the same . We as customers need new stuff because our clients ask for it. In fact there is demand for it that for things work. New idea''s options it takes laborcost eq more employees no matter what your companyname is or how small or large. I have never seen a Alpha developer gave his mobile app after months of hard work and effort for free so why should Alpha do that. If you don't like what there doning then simple leave. And if there is the debate about the IIS plugin an extra $1000 my idea is ask sales our that is correct before pulling conclusion if your not 100% sure. If i remember an email i received from Selwyn (that is a few years ago) "that in time the IIS plugin will replace the old WAS".
    So if my understanding is correct i you have and as long you keep a valid subscription then all is included it is one the reasons that AlphaSoftware started the subscription model to get away from feature packs (nightmare). I have not spoken to Selwyn for a long time ( i think should do that) to complete there is the roadmap 2015 what mentioned the future of Alpha Anywhere "We are working towards more and better use of Node.js, Express Angular" that is very clear and i believe that in time it will come Alpha will run on all platforms transparent without rewriting a line of code. Ken is correct and i agree that should be more clear when new versions are ready for the market like others do by example Q1,Q2,Q3,Q4. There also the question to ask yourself do i need all these fancy widgets and genies that are choices you can make for yourself.

    BTW Telerik is a Progress company. Former CIO/CEO owners of Progress are now Board of Advisors member at AlphaSoftware a solid investment for the future
    Compare what AlphaSoftware delivers versus priceing. Price will go up again you can't hold that no suprise. Recently a vendor in france upgraded his subscription model from a developer license $175,00 a year and $250 for runtime per server to $1200 and $4500-9000. So what do you think what happen't after the great news? tell your customers they have to pay a little bit more.....

    AlphaSoftware is selling by fair trade but you don't have to agree with that, it's my personal idea
    Last edited by bea2701; 07-15-2015 at 11:51 AM.

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by bea2701 View Post
    ... and i believe that in time it will come Alpha will run on all platforms transparent without rewriting a line of code.
    Indeed; last DevCon Selwyn showed some impressive stuff that was converting xbasic to serverside javascript / node; Alpha knows very well what way to go & I put my trust in them.
    Frank

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  5. #95
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by Clipper87 View Post
    Indeed; last DevCon Selwyn showed some impressive stuff that was converting xbasic to serverside javascript / node; Alpha knows very well what way to go & I put my trust in them.
    Frank yep we are both on stage for a long long time and have seen it all

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    I would like to mention to anybody how might be interested in the future to download Bitnami MEAN stack and play with it. That will make life easier to understand how the future will look from technical perspective. It's amazing and fun!

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by bea2701 View Post
    I would like to mention to anybody how might be interested in the future to download Bitnami MEAN stack and play with it. That will make life easier to understand how the future will look from technical perspective. It's amazing and fun!
    Because Alpha has nodejs and express and mongodb and passport already installed you can get the feeling also with Alpha. Thus how they have made it available for developers seems like it is at the moment more for their own internal use.

    Truth is that not much has happened in Alphas server side javascript in practice since last year. Roadmap does not mean anything if it is not followed.
    Because of the plans to bring javascript to serverside it is odd to me how they using their resources with IIS.

  8. #98
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Likely true as you say for most developers are not interested in the engine culture and more have focus for the xbasic and javascript to use the product as is. For sure is will take a long time before the developer will see more. Also most developers are used to the old school way and alpha will do the heavy lifting in converting xbasic to serverside javascript that is the way 99% has chosen Alphasoftware ease of use and less coding, quick to learn how to build smart fancy apps.


    Geek i am talking like a marketing guy ( i am not)
    Last edited by bea2701; 07-15-2015 at 04:11 PM.

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    I watch the boards every day, and rarely post, but felt compelled to weigh in here (apologies if this gets a bit lengthy).

    My wife (Tracie) and I built MySchoolAnywhere.com in Alpha and I would guess that we are one of the largest SaaS apps built in Alpha. (Our Alexa ranking is currently US 59,000 and we typically rank between US 43,000 – 70,000 - depending on the time of the year as we are a seasonal business).

    We originally created our software in MS Access (in 2008) and sold it as a desktop product. In 2010 we added some online features using Caspio but that was a bandaid. In 2012 we realized we needed to go fully to the web and searched for a tool to help us convert to our app.

    Tracie did the research and suggested a couple of products, including Alpha. In a previous life (as a CPA in the early 80’s) I had been introduced to Alpha IV relating to some accounting software that was built on the platform. When we looked at it in 2012 I was impressed by the fact that Alpha had adapted through the years to meet the needs of the current tech market place (think BlackBerry who failed to adapt) as well as the features it had at the time. We obviously chose Alpha.

    What intrigues me most about this thread is the idea that there is a “perfect” product out there. Companies will leap frog each other with new features, etc. but what I am most interested in is a company that has longevity, supports its users properly (even with some mistakes) and works hard to keep up with current trends.

    Now, before you think I’m just some Alpha hack, I fully recognize that the documentation is weak (just fixing the search capabilities on the Wiki would probably resolve 70% of the issues) and that their roll out of last year’s subscription/licensing change was poorly implemented. However, many companies make blunders (think Netflix when they split their subscriber model, effectively doubling the cost to consumers, received a lot of negative feedback, and are now making record profits) and it is how they learn from those mistakes that matter.

    Also, like many on the board I have had my share of spending several hours trying to solve what I thought was a simple task. But, I have to be honest and admit that I would likely have had a similar experience with any other product.

    So, is Alpha the best product on the market? I have no clue since there is no such thing as perfect software (including all of ours) or the perfect company. All software has bugs and workarounds. In fact, I think if you don’t need workarounds then you don’t have enough users.

    What I do know is that Alpha is constantly working to improve their software and keep up with the needs of their market/users. They also provide us the same level of customer service that we provide to our customers (which is why we are the leader in our space).

    In order to build our business, we needed to commit to a company that was innovative, that we knew would be around for the long term and that had the software to allow us to build a best-in-class app. Alpha fits that description and I cannot see using any other product for our business.

    Respectfully,
    Jay Oken

  10. #100
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Alexa rank
    275270th most visited website in the world.
    59137th most visited website in United States

    Nicely done
    checked with
    http://www.site-analyzer.com
    SEo could be a lot better, but who cares with that traffic. What I have been saying for many years. Who cares about seo if the traffic is there.

    Of course there is no alpha on these main pages until you get to the log in, I am sure that must come later.
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  11. #101
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveM View Post
    Alexa rank
    275270th most visited website in the world.
    59137th most visited website in United States

    Nicely done
    checked with
    http://www.site-analyzer.com
    SEo could be a lot better, but who cares with that traffic. What I have been saying for many years. Who cares about seo if the traffic is there.

    Of course there is no alpha on these main pages until you get to the log in, I am sure that must come later.
    What has SEO and your project app has anything todo with the vendor not understanding what you are trying to say a developer should advertise for the vendor and it will rank your business on Alex or ever what higher or make more $$ for your company business. Or are you saying SEO on the vendor part hit will improve your business and profit.. If so will it improve faster selling for you or others will you get discount based on results like hits from the vendor answer NO. you already paid for marketing by your subscription payment partly for marketing cost. I think 95% of what you call "sales" frankly is no more then developer experience, proven skills, result, feedback, cost and time to market. But i understand you always mean well in your post response at the A5 board, further i know your could not sell me a car at Devcon 2010 [ transportation cost to Amsterdam where at little bit to high], but i know a sales guy will never give up keep trying

  12. #102
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    I forgot to mention:
    If you look around the web with all it vendor for different type of solutions from php to oracle express.
    Not one of these match the alpha message board at one point due to lack of one simple thing "social developer connector" there all deliver API for Google,FaceBook etc. So if we talk about SEO then most effective result is the Alpha community my hope is simple don't change but promote we all have benefit

    I am sure 90% Richard Rabins will pick this up and put it on the DEVCON 2015 agenda, there is a lot to tell, the more positive we say will increase business revenue for A5, we share a part of the profit to keep our cost acceptable. a good SEO keyword(s) "we all share we all benefit join us".

  13. #103
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by bea2701 View Post
    Likely true as you say for most developers are not interested in the engine culture and more have focus for the xbasic and javascript to use the product as is. For sure is will take a long time before the developer will see more. Also most developers are used to the old school way and alpha will do the heavy lifting in converting xbasic to serverside javascript that is the way 99% has chosen Alphasoftware ease of use and less coding, quick to learn how to build smart fancy apps.
    As I see this most developers are using xbasic today with components like this:

    dim jsscript as c
    jsscript=<<txt%
    ..javascript here..
    %txt%

    or

    dim somejs as c
    somejs = "..javascript here.."

    That means that they use xbasic to output javascript. Why? Is it easier?

    World is full people who can javascript but very little who have time to learn xbasic.

  14. #104
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    In General i would say yes, it is the foundation of understanding for a lot off "citizen" and professional web/mobile developers the way to get there is hard and difficult. By example use the Kendo UI great product no discussion about that i know it very well (MVC/JSP) in <basic> it's no more then a wrapper with some gadget to make live easier i.a.w. plain box. But now we need to add some security to the app and user role most people get lost to difficult to understand even for a simple app. Now let us reverse and give the "new" developer a plain MEAN stack all free opensource no cost . At minimal 85% will leave bootcamp before finish.

    Vision is simplify (KISS) as we named in the early days before AGLIE was born is there a good reason to alter that ?, i wonder. Freedom is choices you can make be a good fast type goat with tons of lines in your simple app to debug your semi colon mistake in a 5 level deep DOM client side, not to mention server part like SSRS Node etc.
    Last edited by bea2701; 07-16-2015 at 11:00 AM.

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    I fully recognize that the documentation is weak
    Wait and see
    Frank

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  16. #106
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by frankbicknell View Post
    I was very disappointed to find out that there would be an additional charge of $1,000.00 for me. I am 'subscribed' until 2018.
    Well I got over my disappointment and signed up again. That alphahol is potent $h:^.
    Win 10 64 Development, Win 7 64 WAS 11-1, 2, Win 10 64 AA-1,2, MySql, dbForge Studio The Best MySQL GUI Tool IMHO. http://www.devart.com/dbforge/mysql/studio/

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Well, they're trying their best to get me to re-up. Yesterday, I got a message saying I didn't have the latest build as one was released on 7/14/15. So, I downloaded from the alternate servers (the main servers were not active) and installed. This morning I got another message saying I'm not up to date and listed the same build as mine. This time I was able to download from the main servers but before installing, I compared my build number to this morning's download. Would you just look at that?? My build number and today's download are the same. Now, I'm getting a message saying my subscription expired on June 2, 2015 and I won't be able to download the updates unless I buy another subscription. Say what? Whose doing the programing for this at Alpha. My subscription doesn't expire until January 24, 2016. If it expired on 6/2/15, how come I was able to download twice? Who's asleep at the wheel? Guess I'll have to see what Alpha has to say. Just thought this is kinda funny.
    TYVM :) kenn

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by kkfin View Post
    At first using code generators seems to be nice solution. But very soon you just struggle with them.

    Why to make it so difficult.
    In html page you basically have just labels, text boxes, input boxes, selects and textarea.
    Then you add some css and js.

    I would just learn basic skills in html and js and some css.
    Then start using angularjs + some frontend frameworks like kendoui (with Alpha of course).

    Life is much easier and you never have to struggle lack of documentations.

    Check this example from angularjs.org.
    How easy to add or take away something.
    This is how coding should be done!


    Code:
    <!DOCTYPE html>
    <html>
    <head>
    <script src="http://ajax.googleapis.com/ajax/libs/angularjs/1.3.14/angular.min.js"></script>
    </head>
    <body>
    
    <div ng-app ng-init="qty=1;cost=2">
      <b>Invoice:</b>
      <div>
        Quantity: <input type="number" min="0" ng-model="qty">
      </div>
      <div>
        Costs: <input type="number" min="0" ng-model="cost">
      </div>
      <div>
        <b>Total:</b> {{qty * cost | currency}}
      </div>
    </div>
    </body>
    </html>
    Get interested? This is the original video that turned my development philosophy.

    Angular is certainly a different beast, and quite mature now in today's modern longevity terms.
    I particularly like this video that quickly and code efficiently explains the benefits and openness of Angular, viz a viz third party tools such as Firebase.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qdoaX-iWC4
    It may be out of date now, as I believe a significant upgrade took place fairly recently, but it still highlights the trends in the marketplace to simplify the coding side of DB related development.

    I also find it interesting that traditional Alpha users are now exploring development topics such as 'meanstack', long may it continue.

    As to AA and hilltops, from what I understand, Selwyn would appear to be a software development tool genius and as long as he retains the desire to differentiate AA from the rest of the offerings we should be OK.

    Unless you are a hobbyist developer, you must realise that just like you, Alpha is a business, and as such requires capital to continue as a successful enterprise.
    Therefore, research and development costs need to be covered and then investors appeased, etc. Which I suspect is why they have, over recent years, opted for the subscription model.
    Personally, I am not a fan of the subscription approach, primarily because of the comments several people have already expressed in this thread. However, I am a fan of paying a fair price for an upgrade when significant benefits and features become available. I would add to this that to offset cash flow needs for suppliers such as Alpha, I am always happy to pay reasonable annual maintenance charges to ensure correction of bug fixes and receipt of improved functionality of existing features.

  19. #109
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    I watched the video link (actually watched-skimmed it). Every time I watch a video on Angular JS, I marvel at what a painful process it is to build even the most simple interface. I get that you have total control, but at what price? You could spend a year building stuff Alpha gives you out of the box that you can put together in minutes or in an hour. It's not that Alpha is a perfect solution, it's not. But there's a reason that people gravitate towards RAD. You can do real stuff, relatively quickly. One of my projects over the past 6-months is quite complex (that's why it's taken 6-months and a ways to go yet), but if I had to do it Angular, I would be working on it for 6-years. Having said that, I really would love to see some of Kkfin's work:

    Then start using angularjs + some frontend frameworks like kendoui (with Alpha of course)
    That's an interesting combo: Angular, KendoUI and Alpha. Of course, if you are using KendoUI, then you are leapfrogging Angular in a sense - right?

  20. #110
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Angular is a framework like many others as Breeze, KnockOut no more. Kendo UI is a template wrapper for different script languages as JSP, ASP,PHP no more.
    The learning curve is not so simple as shown on youtube video's. Use Webstorm from Jetbrains.com my advice first follow the basic training course howto become a type goat

  21. #111
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Along with what Peter said, unless you need it to do something Alpha (or similar programs) can't do, why does one want to spend all that time with it? In some respect, the time spent on it is wasted time. (Not that I haven't wasted time with Alpha. LOL)
    TYVM :) kenn

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    My answer to the observations of Peter and Ken is twofold:

    1. Given that the Angular code involved in the video example is in reality very compact for what it achieves and far more powerful than anything previously available in JS and even JQ, I suggest therefore that possibly for the more adaptable amongst us, that when armed with a snippet library of typical DOM access functions, preferred CSS layout attributes, generic table management requirements and table definitions, simple copy and paste actions + necessary tweaks quickly become the developer equivalent of RAD, and eventually second nature.

    2. Incredible flexibility for back-end and front-end functionality; with deployment costs, if not completely inconsequential, then certainly not a barrier to attractive resale pricing.

    Having said that, given my age and dwindling ability to focus intensively on new technologies and how to harness and benefit from them, give me the RAD approach every time :)

  23. #113
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    There are rad systmes out there that will give you JS, css, asp/c# code that works and ready to deploy verysimilar to what alpha does. It is about the same cost as well. It does not do it with less hand coding, in fact just the opposite. You will do more hand coding. There are benefits as well.
    Do I use it? NO Too busy with alpha desktops stuff and my website endeavors.
    Due to the websites I am compelled to go deeper and deeper into PHP, CSS3, JQ, JS, HTML5, ajax, MySQL/mariadb, not to mention some other stuff. These will go on Linux or windows platforms and sometimes do.
    Fortunately, there are tons of code snippets already built in the aforementioned that may only need a tweak or 2 to save many hours of hand work.
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