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Thread: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter.Greulich View Post
    Preston, as you know, InDe is $$$ these days. I worked with it for a month. Went through the tutorial, began to learn how to apply (code) security. InDe is an interesting product, but not at all intuitive. I felt the learning curve was too steep given all the Alpha work I have to support.
    True Peter, the learning curve is steep. As for the $$$, depends on how you look at it. Unlimited apps on unlimited servers versus buying a lot of WAS's.

    Again the issue I have is the only info I can get is AA will crawl at a very low concurrent user number unless you throw a fortune 500 companies budget at servers and things. Fine and dandy if you are building apps for large enterprise companies but not if you are trying to get your own SaaS solution off the ground. I would not be able to afford paying Zebrahost $500 to $1000 a month for a server to handle the user count.

    I will need to start with a VPS and then move up from there as things grow. Right or wrong most of the info I am finding says I cannot do that with AA and keep the site running. I even read in another thread where some are seeing AA bog way down when running xbasic and using some of my existing xbasic would be the only major perk moving forward with AA.

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter.Greulich View Post
    Preston, as you know, InDe is $$$ these days. I worked with it for a month. Went through the tutorial, began to learn how to apply (code) security. InDe is an interesting product, but not at all intuitive. I felt the learning curve was too steep given all the Alpha work I have to support.
    I think you gave up too soon on INDE. As you must have realized, Alpha and Inde are two radically different approaches; they are on two very different levels. Alpha way of thinking and Xbasic are absolutely not transferable, hence it is going to take a bit more time than 1 month. Had you persevered, you would be on a different planet today, I can't say more on this board.

    As for Price, it really depends on your situation as Preston hinted.
    If you are a casual developer that develops 1 App per year or two, Alpha is cheaper. However, if you develop and sell 2 or more Apps a year, Inde is cheaper:
    -there is no WAS to buy. Get the developer version (freelance price) build, sell & install as many Apps as the market can bear at no additional cost
    -you do not need pricey VPS; my Apps are hosted on a $12/mth 2GB of RAM self managed VPS. With Alpha I used to pay $38/mth
    -the same way Alpha offers deals behind the scenes, Inde also offers group discount behind the scenes.

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by gaby_h View Post
    I think you gave up too soon on INDE. As you must have realized, Alpha and Inde are two radically different approaches; they are on two very different levels. Alpha way of thinking and Xbasic are absolutely not transferable, hence it is going to take a bit more time than 1 month. Had you persevered, you would be on a different planet today, I can't say more on this board.

    As for Price, it really depends on your situation as Preston hinted.
    If you are a casual developer that develops 1 App per year or two, Alpha is cheaper. However, if you develop and sell 2 or more Apps a year, Inde is cheaper:
    -there is no WAS to buy. Get the developer version (freelance price) build, sell & install as many Apps as the market can bear at no additional cost
    -you do not need pricey VPS; my Apps are hosted on a $12/mth 2GB of RAM self managed VPS. With Alpha I used to pay $38/mth
    -the same way Alpha offers deals behind the scenes, Inde also offers group discount behind the scenes.
    InDe is built around dot net 2.0. I do not see any reason why? It is basically from 2005. If I think what steps InDe has had last year and compare to Alpha I must say Alpha has taken much more interesting steps forward. Anything you can do with Nodejs you can do now with Alpha. You can use any javascript framework or any javascript solution with Alpha and for example MongoDb (noSQL) is already integrated thanks Nodejs. You can todays Alpha Anywhere build totally your own solutions and it allows it or if you want to hammer you head with components and wonder where to but checkboxes and so on Alpha allows that too.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter.Greulich View Post

    Ken, I'm really curious how, or even why, you use Alpha? You don't use components, you don't use security, you don't use xbasic. So what part of Alpha do you use?
    I am using good parts. If I want to use nice urls like ...#!/tool/group/44567?q=456 I can not use security.

    What benefits I do get using components. Only component to consider is in fact ux-component but the most simple solution is abous 1200 lines of code in browsers source view???. I get headache when I even think where to put everything in components and wondering how it works. Too complicated to me. And if I use UX then I am basically stuck with its javascript, css and so on... So code editor is enough to me and I do use xbasic a lot but I would use just javascript if it would be possible. Now I use xbasic to produce mostly javascript and to start javascript process. So I am coding xbasic to get javascript. Why?? Why xbasic middleware? Any benefits?

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryBrightbill View Post
    If you can provide an example of the security causing a slowdown, we would certainly like to see it. While every request goes through the security check, extensive testing has shown the security check takes between 7 and 11 milliseconds, while some could actually be less.
    Glad to hear that there is no problems in security regarding performance.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by kkfin View Post
    I am using good parts. If I want to use nice urls like ...#!/tool/group/44567?q=456 I can not use security.

    What benefits I do get using components. Only component to consider is in fact ux-component but the most simple solution is abous 1200 lines of code in browsers source view???. I get headache when I even think where to put everything in components and wondering how it works. Too complicated to me. And if I use UX then I am basically stuck with its javascript, css and so on... So code editor is enough to me and I do use xbasic a lot but I would use just javascript if it would be possible. Now I use xbasic to produce mostly javascript and to start javascript process. So I am coding xbasic to get javascript. Why?? Why xbasic middleware? Any benefits?
    Thanks for the clarification. Now I have at least a conceptual understanding of what you are doing.

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Hi,
    From the documentation it seems windev is for desktop development. For web development they have webdev. Webdev does not seem to be as easy as alpha in matter of databases applications...
    the mobile part (windev mobile) seems better than alpha since it has direct access to sql lite (installed on the mobile). The local storage of alpha is not so robust for offline Enterprise apps.
    Has anyone developed something with webdev?

    Regards.

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Paul,
    Did you see some of the videos that are found here http://www.windev.com/pcsoft/videos.html#liste ?
    Even if they are old you can see the power of webdev. Also, you can find many videos on youtube (in English, french and other languages) use the youtube video translator to watch them with (subtitle), I find that feature very useful. I never used webdev but it looks like from the videos that i seen, it does a better job than alpha's approach building websites. currently, I am looking into the users and authentication section of webdev. so far, I am amazed by it.
    {

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Here is the English language video channel on you-tube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTf...rEPgIDdQ7qnP3A
    {

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    I looked at windev a while back and if I were making a webpage selling widgets, it might be just fine.

    But I write apps in Alpha Anywhere (xbasic) that do, accounting, HR, Clock IN/OUT via mobile, near real time synchronization from self hosted MS SQL to cloud hosted MySQL, and many other logically complex operations.

    Can windev do all of that? I can find no evidence that it can.

    So...what kind of webpage are you making? How complex is it? Must it automatically resize itself based on the device it's on? Can it work OFFLINE? :)

  11. #41
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Just reading the info on WinDev again. It seems to say that you develop using WinDev and then you can recompile for web and/or mobile using WebDev and WinDev Mobile. So it seems like you write the code once and then can use it for desktop, web or mobile.

    I will look at it again and see if I have any better luck following the tutorial then I did when the express was version 17.

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulAmmoun View Post
    Hi,

    Has anyone developed something with webdev?

    Regards.
    Check 100's of sites on this link http://www.windev.com/webdev/list-of-sites.html
    Some of them are poorly designed though.
    {

  13. #43
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Preston, do you mean you have a copy of WebDev, for they don't have an express version for that hence not sure how you will test this....
    Regards,

    Kotin Karwak
    Developer Edition
    Version 12.3 Build 2684
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    Build machine Windows Vista
    Skype: mateso08

  14. #44
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by kotinkarwak View Post
    Preston, do you mean you have a copy of WebDev, for they don't have an express version for that hence not sure how you will test this....
    No, I have just downloaded WinDev Express version 19 and I am downloading WinDev Mobile Express version 19.

    You are correct that they do not offer an express version of WebDev.

    My understanding though is if I develop something in WinDev and then decide to purchase WinDev and WebDev that all I need to do is have WebDev compile the app and code I wrote in WinDev. What I am reading on their site is basically develop it in WinDev and then use WebDev and WinDev Mobile to deploy it onto the web and mobile devices.

    Just started reading the docs and tutorial stuff. Version 19 seems to be a lot different than version 17 and on initial observation the development console looks a lot better.

    If I can learn it and get some things to work, I may just buy the suite as I am very interested in the built in SaaS tools in version 20.

    According to the Concepts_WinDev.pdf, All the elements, except for the GUI (pages and windows) are 100% compatible and shareable among the WinDev, WebDev and WinDev Mobile projects. Which to me means all I would have to do is create different pages for each deployment method and I am cool with that.
    Last edited by preston2; 06-25-2015 at 04:55 PM.

  15. #45
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulAmmoun View Post
    Hi,
    From the documentation it seems windev is for desktop development. For web development they have webdev. Webdev does not seem to be as easy as alpha in matter of databases applications...
    the mobile part (windev mobile) seems better than alpha since it has direct access to sql lite (installed on the mobile). The local storage of alpha is not so robust for offline Enterprise apps.
    Has anyone developed something with webdev?

    Regards.
    Alpha Anywhere will soon be supporting the file system on mobile devices so the amount of data - especially media - that can be stored when offline will go up by orders of magnitude. Also when synching up after connection is restored - you will have the option of sending the media files to S3 and just sending a link back to the server

    Also have you see what is coming in mobile in ALpha? check this out

    Tablet optimized apps for stand-up workers

    Soon, Alpha Anywhere will make it extremely quick and easy to build apps that are optimized for field workers in industry, government and health care whose job requires them to work standing up most of the time.

    Learn more http://www.alphasoftware.com/blog/2-...ess-computing/

    see video by Dan Bricklin Alpha CTO https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrl_...ature=youtu.be
    Richard Rabins
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  16. #46
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by preston2 View Post
    True Peter, the learning curve is steep. As for the $$$, depends on how you look at it. Unlimited apps on unlimited servers versus buying a lot of WAS's.

    Again the issue I have is the only info I can get is AA will crawl at a very low concurrent user number unless you throw a fortune 500 companies budget at servers and things. Fine and dandy if you are building apps for large enterprise companies but not if you are trying to get your own SaaS solution off the ground. I would not be able to afford paying Zebrahost $500 to $1000 a month for a server to handle the user count.

    I will need to start with a VPS and then move up from there as things grow. Right or wrong most of the info I am finding says I cannot do that with AA and keep the site running. I even read in another thread where some are seeing AA bog way down when running xbasic and using some of my existing xbasic would be the only major perk moving forward with AA.
    I wanted to comment on the topic of concurrent users. Clearly it depends on the complexity of the app, the design of the app, the design of the database and the kind of server you are using. Nothing in this statement if Alpha specific btw.

    What I can say is that we have numerous SaaS apps built in Alpha that are running with very good performance and using a small amount of server power.
    For example www.petsitclick.com has approximately 15000 users on the system during the day and they are running off 3 servers and a load balancer.

    In addition because of the design of upcoming IIS plugin - http://www.alphasoftware.com/iis/ you will see very significant performance enhancements.

    If you want us to take look at what you are doing to troubleshoot your app - please let me know at richard@alphasoftware.com
    Richard Rabins
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  17. #47
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    I am not a wndev/webdev fan

    Https://www.petsitclick.com

    57% seo ranking of a possible 100

    Alexa rank
    762288th most visited website in the world.
    197856th most visited website in United States is not real bad considering the SEO score.

    Http server : Alpha Anywhere Application Server Application Server/12.0 Build/2689-4440
    Technology : Unknown

    However, could not test speed of alpha and databases here. It must be in the background. The pages are built using html prior to html5.

    Used a free seo tool here http://www.site-analyzer.com/ that gets a lot of good information to you.
    Last edited by DaveM; 06-26-2015 at 08:08 PM.
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  18. #48
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Rabins View Post
    I wanted to comment on the topic of concurrent users. Clearly it depends on the complexity of the app, the design of the app, the design of the database and the kind of server you are using. Nothing in this statement if Alpha specific btw.

    What I can say is that we have numerous SaaS apps built in Alpha that are running with very good performance and using a small amount of server power.
    For example www.petsitclick.com has approximately 15000 users on the system during the day and they are running off 3 servers and a load balancer.

    In addition because of the design of upcoming IIS plugin - http://www.alphasoftware.com/iis/ you will see very significant performance enhancements.

    If you want us to take look at what you are doing to troubleshoot your app - please let me know at richard@alphasoftware.com
    Naturally it depends on complexity of the app. I am currently using A5 V11 for my desktop app. I had wanted to make a SaaS web version of the apps concept and had started a subscription to AA last year but I had some bad experiences with Alpha preferred developers trying to get something going.

    Then I had a family emergency which forced me to cancel my subscription. I am now trying to build my app on my own because I can no longer afford to hire some help. That said, with the other development platforms I am looking at I can use them for as long as I need and develop my app for no up front cost. I would just need to pay for the system when I was ready to deploy.

    I cannot afford an AA subscription right now and I do not know if I would want to pay for one given that people are telling me the Alpha WAS starts slowing down at 10 concurrent users and comes to a halt at 30. True or not I cannot afford to risk it on the off chance it is true.

    My app would be an SaaS that needs to perform some very complex logic and math anytime any value is changed. It is not a simple matter of taking a product price and multiplying it by the number ordered.

    My expectations would be to have a max of 500 users per server without the need for a special high priced server to start with.

    The other issue is I could ask for a trial period for AA but I doubt I would get anywhere within the 30 day trial period and again I cannot afford to subscribe just to see if AA will do what I need to get done. I am more familiar with Alpha and would prefer to use it if it will do the job but I just cannot afford to subscribe to it right now to find out.

    As it stands I am going through tutorials on two other development systems that have no time limit on the trial and the first one that starts making sense to me and delivers the best look and feel will win. I will then start saving my nickles to buy a license for the winner.

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Preston, you are not alone.
    In my situation, I subscribed for alpha AA to take advantage of all upcoming new feature and technologies. At that time alpha’s add-ons where expensive and sold separate, also many common and popular functionalists where not included with the main IDE. Then, I agreed and subscribed to AA. Under one year of my subscription, I am told that I will never get the SaaS functionality without paying $1000 and now, they are promoting to sale the IIS functionality for $1000, too.

    What is the advantage of subscribing?
    Yes, there are some small additional functionalists and bug fixes that subscribers get, but when it comes to best functionalists, Alpha never give you without getting a $1000 dollars from you.

    Don’t get me wrong, AA is a nice tool, but I think PCSOFT (windev) may become a killer developer’s tool.
    When I see PC-Soft software's V20 , I'm blown away.

    Watch-out AA!!
    {

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by preston2 View Post
    Naturally it depends on complexity of the app. I am currently using A5 V11 for my desktop app. I had wanted to make a SaaS web version of the apps concept and had started a subscription to AA last year but I had some bad experiences with Alpha preferred developers trying to get something going.

    Then I had a family emergency which forced me to cancel my subscription. I am now trying to build my app on my own because I can no longer afford to hire some help. That said, with the other development platforms I am looking at I can use them for as long as I need and develop my app for no up front cost. I would just need to pay for the system when I was ready to deploy.

    I cannot afford an AA subscription right now and I do not know if I would want to pay for one given that people are telling me the Alpha WAS starts slowing down at 10 concurrent users and comes to a halt at 30. True or not I cannot afford to risk it on the off chance it is true.

    My app would be an SaaS that needs to perform some very complex logic and math anytime any value is changed. It is not a simple matter of taking a product price and multiplying it by the number ordered.

    My expectations would be to have a max of 500 users per server without the need for a special high priced server to start with.

    The other issue is I could ask for a trial period for AA but I doubt I would get anywhere within the 30 day trial period and again I cannot afford to subscribe just to see if AA will do what I need to get done. I am more familiar with Alpha and would prefer to use it if it will do the job but I just cannot afford to subscribe to it right now to find out.

    As it stands I am going through tutorials on two other development systems that have no time limit on the trial and the first one that starts making sense to me and delivers the best look and feel will win. I will then start saving my nickles to buy a license for the winner.
    If you need to extend your trial - we can accommodate - just email brett@alphasoftware.com and he will assist you
    Richard Rabins
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    Alpha Software

  21. #51
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferenju View Post
    Preston, you are not alone.
    In my situation, I subscribed for alpha AA to take advantage of all upcoming new feature and technologies. At that time alpha’s add-ons where expensive and sold separate, also many common and popular functionalists where not included with the main IDE. Then, I agreed and subscribed to AA. Under one year of my subscription, I am told that I will never get the SaaS functionality without paying $1000 and now, they are promoting to sale the IIS functionality for $1000, too.

    What is the advantage of subscribing?
    Yes, there are some small additional functionalists and bug fixes that subscribers get, but when it comes to best functionalists, Alpha never give you without getting a $1000 dollars from you.

    Don’t get me wrong, AA is a nice tool, but I think PCSOFT (windev) may become a killer developer’s tool.
    When I see PC-Soft software's V20 , I'm blown away.

    Watch-out AA!!
    I have to take exception to your comment "Yes, there are some small additional functionalists and bug fixes that subscribers get,..."

    Check this page out for what has been added over time to AA

    http://www.alphasoftware.com/innovation.asp

    Also we have a new release coming in the next 30-45 days with a lot of important functionality (it has been in pre-release for some time and has been available to subscribers for some time)
    Richard Rabins
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  22. #52
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferenju View Post

    What is the advantage of subscribing?
    Yes, there are some small additional functionalists and bug fixes that subscribers get, but when it comes to best functionalists, Alpha never give you without getting a $1000 dollars from you.

    Don’t get me wrong, AA is a nice tool, but I think PCSOFT (windev) may become a killer developer’s tool.
    When I see PC-Soft software's V20 , I'm blown away.
    When I saw that WebDev 20 had a SaaS server built in (not sure if it is in the developer or the WAS) I too became very excited.

    The drawback with the PC Soft stuff is they have it separated into 3 different development systems. But the cost of their WAS is extremely low.

    I have not totally discounted Alpha but I have to take a strong look at the others. When I first tried WinDev it was version 17 and I hated the console but the console in 19 is quite nice. On the other side of the fence, Alpha brings familiarity but still would require a hefty learning curve to go from desktop apps to web apps.

  23. #53
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Rabins View Post
    If you need to extend your trial - we can accommodate - just email brett@alphasoftware.com and he will assist you
    Thanks Richard, I may do that.

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by preston2 View Post
    No, I have just downloaded WinDev Express version 19 and I am downloading WinDev Mobile Express version 19.

    You are correct that they do not offer an express version of WebDev.

    My understanding though is if I develop something in WinDev and then decide to purchase WinDev and WebDev that all I need to do is have WebDev compile the app and code I wrote in WinDev. What I am reading on their site is basically develop it in WinDev and then use WebDev and WinDev Mobile to deploy it onto the web and mobile devices.

    Just started reading the docs and tutorial stuff. Version 19 seems to be a lot different than version 17 and on initial observation the development console looks a lot better.

    If I can learn it and get some things to work, I may just buy the suite as I am very interested in the built in SaaS tools in version 20.

    According to the Concepts_WinDev.pdf, All the elements, except for the GUI (pages and windows) are 100% compatible and shareable among the WinDev, WebDev and WinDev Mobile projects. Which to me means all I would have to do is create different pages for each deployment method and I am cool with that.
    If you can write it all in Windev why do they sell Webdev there is no SAAS project choice in Windev and deploy is a different package.

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by bea2701 View Post
    If you can write it all in Windev why do they sell Webdev there is no SAAS project choice in Windev and deploy is a different package.
    Do not know the exact answer to that right now. They just say all code is compatible between the 3 products except for the GUI's. But that is not the point for me. There is no express version of WebDev so I have to try out their stuff using WinDev express. That said if I do get a base for my app developed in WinDev express, I can then pull all that work into WebDev to complete the project and get it ready to deploy. If all I had was 30 days to try WinDev then I do not think I would learn enough about it to make a decision about buying it or not. Because I can use WinDev for as long as I need, I can learn it at my own pace. Right now I do not know if I will go with Alpha, InDe or PC Soft but so far I am liking what I see in WinDev.

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by bea2701 View Post
    If you can write it all in Windev why do they sell Webdev there is no SAAS project choice in Windev and deploy is a different package.
    Eric,
    You can't write it all using one of the application. But you can convert one of your project to another to save time. Remember you may be required to clean up your code after conversion depends on your first project setup/code. but it may save you lots of time.
    Windev, windev-mobile and webdev are stand alone applications each on for targeted purpose.
    {

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    One thing that Windev company has make it right is that they have three separate products: desktop, web and mobile versions.
    And they are all developed further also desktop version.
    Maybe it is time to look at mirror. Do we all do mobile?

  28. #58
    "Certified" Alphaholic
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by kkfin View Post
    One thing that Windev company has make it right is that they have three separate products: desktop, web and mobile versions.
    And they are all developed further also desktop version.
    Maybe it is time to look at mirror. Do we all do mobile?
    My mailbox says "Renew your license now and order before date xxxx save $1000,00" for the soon to be released IIS-plugin normal an optional add-in.
    Are feature packs coming back? Introduction of a new Sales line = Subscription + feature packs
    if correct then Ken made a statement.
    Last edited by bea2701; 06-29-2015 at 02:59 AM.

  29. #59
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by bea2701 View Post
    My mailbox says "Renew your license now and order before date xxxx save $1000,00" for the soon to be released IIS-plugin normal an optional add-in.
    Are feature packs coming back? Introduction of a new Sales line = Subscription + feature packs
    if correct then Ken made a statement.
    YES, as far as I know!
    The first feature pack that alpha released was the SaaS framework for $999.
    Both SaaS and IIS suppose to be part of the subscribers benefit and those should be available to everyone who has active subscription.
    {

  30. #60
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter.Greulich View Post
    Ferenju, my point is that a list of great features is one thing. How it all works in development and the real world is another.
    Peter,

    You made a very, very good point. My experience is that all or nearly all software is like that, including Alpha. I find that most frustrating and considerably time consuming with Alpha. I really like a lot of Alpha's features, but implementing them is another story. I've yet to find any documentation from "Anyone" that even begins to show the ins and outs of AA. Example: Alpha hasn't even begun to tap the many ways grids can be used, which I find short sited on Alpha's part. After a LOT of experimenting, I finally came up with a visual solution using 3 tables, having access to all the fields in each table and show them all on a 12" screen. For me, the result is amazing but it took me many months to get there.

    The time it takes to explore is considerable and really, really negates rapid designing using Alpha. Most apps demand otherwise. With Alpha, one can get there from here, but first, must cross the desert and then wade through the jungle. Having lots of great features is wonderful but using them is another story, even with Alpha.

    I have a love/hate attitude with Alpha but the thought of embarking on a new tool is more that I want to take on at this time. I just don't have the time for even a moderate learning curve. Alpha has the potential to be a fabulous tool, but that will never happen unless a commitment is made to much better documentation such as showing the possible ways grids can be used. The videos are great but much too abrupt. Showing a quick, basic way to do something is not the real world. Using the feature is quite another story.
    TYVM :) kenn

    Knowing what you can achieve will not become reality until you imagine and explore.

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