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Thread: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

  1. #61
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    With Alpha, one can get there from here, but first, must cross the desert and then wade through the jungle.
    I would add 'then climb the sheer face of the mountain and then click the mouse button 5000 times'...
    Win 10 64 Development, Win 7 64 WAS 11-1, 2, Win 10 64 AA-1,2, MySql, dbForge Studio The Best MySQL GUI Tool IMHO. http://www.devart.com/dbforge/mysql/studio/

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by frankbicknell View Post
    I would add 'then climb the sheer face of the mountain and then click the mouse button 5000 times'...
    You forgot "re-create the component from scratch 10000 time" and making sure you have the latest pre-release 10 times :):):)

    But I still believe Alpha is a great tool.. Especially for "database driven web app"...

    Regards,

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by PaulAmmoun View Post
    But I still believe Alpha is a great tool.. Especially for "database driven web app"...
    That it is. However, if alpha would do an anonymous survey of it's customers, they would find that a large number (my hunch) are actively looking for another tool that does what Alpha does, has better documentation and actually works without have to find work arounds; the genies work ALL the time, etc. Unfortunately, Alpha isn't willing to do what it takes to become "King on the Hill". As a result, as soon as a tool comes along that exceeds Alpha and is competitively priced, many will take the plunge and say adios. Please don't mistake this as a complaint, I'm simply making a statement which may not be 100% true but the apple didn't fall far from the tree.
    TYVM :) kenn

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by forskare View Post
    That it is. However, if alpha would do an anonymous survey of it's customers, they would find that a large number (my hunch) are actively looking for another tool that does what Alpha does, has better documentation and actually works without have to find work arounds; the genies work ALL the time, etc. Unfortunately, Alpha isn't willing to do what it takes to become "King on the Hill". As a result, as soon as a tool comes along that exceeds Alpha and is competitively priced, many will take the plunge and say adios. Please don't mistake this as a complaint, I'm simply making a statement which may not be 100% true but the apple didn't fall far from the tree.
    There currently is not one single system that surpasses Alpha on feature and price. Not even close. I can roll out an app in days where it would take weeks on other RAD tools. They are like Google in that they are constantly adding new features e.g. off line mode.

    Is Alpha perfect? No, name one company that is. Could they do a better job on documentation, sweet jebus yes. The videos are a huge help but you can't scan for words in a video (not yet anyway).

    They ARE the king of the hill if no one is better, by definition. The fact that they've opted to use HTML5, again like Google, show's they can see the future. What developers need, and I include myself, are better ways to get past that stupid little problem that takes 4 hours to fix that should have been OH SO EASY. I've opted to pay for mentoring to help me in the past and would in the future, money well spent.

    These forums are nice but because it's all voluntary versus paid support, help is hit or miss and frustrates people who are held up because of a confusing (to them) thing they are new to.

    Either Alpha could offer paid support that was cheaper (that would piss off devs) or better perhaps by letting devs compete for the "business" of helping someone. They get paid, the new alpha person moves along in a short time vs days, everyone wins.

    If you want to be able to write a complex application that be used on any device without recoding, Alpha, for the money and ease of use, is impossible to beat.

    Windev examples I've seen (from their website) are just screens filled with pictures like selling widgets. What I don't see on windev are what you'd need to do data driven websites. These I DO see on alpha sites: input boxes, grids, lists, combo boxes, embedded reports, panels, the list goes on.

  5. #65
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by forskare View Post
    That it is. However, if alpha would do an anonymous survey of it's customers, they would find that a large number (my hunch) are actively looking for another tool that does what Alpha does, has better documentation and actually works without have to find work arounds; the genies work ALL the time, etc.
    I know of several that have moved on, or are looking to move on. The big upset started with Alpha'a licensing change going to a subscription model. That got a large amount of developers to start looking elsewhere. Some found solutions that they are now using, some are still looking.

    I do not think Alpha doing a survey would get them the real answers. Those who have left would not participate, those looking to leave would feel Alpha would not listen anyway so they would get the majority of the survey results from current satisfied customers. They have a "Wish List" site and I believe very little of what get suggested goes anywhere.

    I also agree that Alpha lacks a lot on the documentation side. If I would have had to rely on the docs and the wiki when I first started using Alpha I would probably still be staring at the developer screen not knowing what to do. Virtually everything I have learned about using Alpha has come from this forum. Alpha should be very grateful to those who contribute here for that.

    Personally I have been looking for over 1 1/2 years for something to use to develop a SaaS web app. I think I may have found it. Fairly priced, good documentation, decent user forum, easy for me to learn and other things that fit within my needs. Is it the best? I do not know but I think it will be something that will allow me to develop what I want.

  6. #66
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by Clint2 View Post
    They ARE the king of the hill if no one is better, by definition. The fact that they've opted to use HTML5, again like Google, show's they can see the future. What developers need, and I include myself, are better ways to get past that stupid little problem that takes 4 hours to fix that should have been OH SO EASY. I've opted to pay for mentoring to help me in the past and would in the future, money well spent.
    I do not think they are the king of the hill. Good, yes, King, no. Most other decent systems out there have adopted things like HTML5 way before Alpha did so that is nothing special.

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by preston2 View Post
    I do not think they are the king of the hill. Good, yes, King, no. Most other decent systems out there have adopted things like HTML5 way before Alpha did so that is nothing special.
    If they aren't the king, please name the king lol

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by Clint2 View Post
    If they aren't the king, please name the king lol
    Going by how many fortune 500 companies use other development systems. No need to name them, just look around.

    Alpha is fighting a broken WAS that they have cornered themselves into. I know they are hoping their IIS module will bail it out but it still puts them way behind and being totally tied to windows puts them even further behind.

    People who love Alpha are naturally going to defend it and that is ok. I just know when I put my app out for paid consulting, none of the Alpha approved/referred developers could do what I needed done with Alpha.

    Alpha is a good product for what it is. It is just not the right solution for everyone. I use Alpha everyday for desktop apps but it is not the right solution for my web app. Even my desktop apps will eventually be moved away from Alpha if for no other reason then not being able to compile an .exe or .dmg file or not being able to get rid of all the references to Alpha showing up in your app.

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by Clint2 View Post
    There currently is not one single system that surpasses Alpha on feature and price. Not even close. I can roll out an app in days where it would take weeks on other RAD tools.

    If they aren't the king, please name the king lol

    If you want to be able to write a complex application that be used on any device without recoding, Alpha, for the money and ease of use, is impossible to beat.
    Hi Clint, Your statement that there is nothing even close to Alpha assumes you have had a close look at nearly all the programs out there. Additionally, the assumption is that they don't fit your needs but Alpha does. At best, your statement is most generous.

    As far as which program is King on the Hill, I suggest it is the program which has the great features (that work w/o work arounds) and by far and away have convincingly more sales than any other. If there is such a program out there, it would have been mentioned by now. I've tooted my horn similar to you about Alpha and I still will. Over the last 25 plus years, Alpha has been playing 'catch up'. Yes, they have had some ground breaking features but the major ones were in use before Alpha began writing their own. By and large, Alpha has done a decent job but to be King on the Hill, they need to take the lead. Who is in the lead? I suppose that depends on ones need and who has the product that meets one's needs the best.

    I disagree Alpha is impossible to beat. If it was no one would have even thought about another vender let alone, moved on. You are very new to Alpha and have not experienced what those of us who have been using Alpha for many years. With only 50+ posts, you either have not written a complex app or you are next to a genius using Alpha. IOW, you should be teaching/mentoring others about how you either avoid the problem issues or can fix them. This isn't meant to be critical of you but suffice it to say, many have been using Alpha for several years. For me, I began using Alpha with the Alpha 4 DOS version, which was, in many ways, much easier to use and, in my opinion, more stable. If it weren't old technology, I would still be using it today because that is when Alpha was "King on the Hill". I don't believe there was any other DOS database that could beat it. It was sheer pleasure to use.
    TYVM :) kenn

    Knowing what you can achieve will not become reality until you imagine and explore.

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    "King of the hill"
    There is NOT one! I write applications that reside mostly on Linux web servers. Why? Linux is faster and most of the sites are in a different language and cms.

    My king of the hill as far as opinions would be something that helps me do my job faster, cleaner and resides on Linux or windows servers.

    Alpha desktop? Nothing touches it today or for the past 25 years. It get the app out quickly, efficiently and accurately.

    Now I will get back to working on my debugging my v12 app and sending updates. My church app is almost done too.
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  11. #71
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Cut the crap!. i would say take a look a MS roadmap 2015 MS adapted WPF as the desktop for next 5 years. Notice the difference what's happening ? the UI has changed toutchies at the screen level. i.a.w. for heavy duty taks use the desktop for the usiness. Nothing has changed beside AlphaSoftware can do several things but that's not up to me. By example upgrade the UI desktop to a modern look perhaps like Metro. Secondly direct access to Sql Native. Easy deployment by iis versus ms webdeploy 3.5.. But that is not going to happen and i understand a relative small company has to make choices, in general speaking there is nothing wrong with there products. if you have less luck to upgrade and build a great Alpha desktop app don't complain it's A5 miss take they didn't phone you on time or you where not present to pickup. To complete i read someone would like to upload by example a 1M images to the server backand saying complaining "it's not working by the web". Conclusion it will never work by http, why http is not build build for those transaction types.
    Last edited by bea2701; 06-30-2015 at 10:51 AM.

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by kkfin View Post
    One thing that has had surprisingly little attention is Alpha Anywheres ability to run server side javascript.
    This is just amazing feature. This feature makes also possible to run javascript directly in web page template.

    Little Example template

    Code:
    <!doctype html>
    <html lang="en">
     <head>
      <meta charset="UTF-8">
      <title>Little Example</title>
      <%= new Date() %>
     </head>
     <body>
     <h1>My Little Example Template</h1>
     </body>
    </html>

    In bold above is pure javascript function inside <% %> tags that renderes date when page is loaded.( Note that no library is loaded ).

    This is possible because Alpha Anywhere has integrated Nodejs. What is interesting is that above page is rendered in Nodejs server not in Alpha Anywhere server so if you are running AA server in port 80 you can for example make above page available at port 3000 ( or any other port).

    This opens endless possibility's to developers point of view.

    Here is example to get started.

    1. Find in Alphas install directory node_services directory and put this file expressown.js to it.

    Code:
    exports.handler = function(packet,response,sendResponse) {
    
    	var express = require('express');
    	var path = require('path');
    	var app = express();
    	app.set('view engine', 'ejs');
    	app.set('views', path.join(__dirname, 'views'));
    	// Start the app
    
    	app.get('/', function(req, res) {
    	res.render('index');
    	});
    
    	app.listen(3000, function() {
    	console.log('Express app started on port 3000');
    	});
    
    	
    		response.result = 'Server is running on port 3000'
    		sendResponse(response);
    };
    2. Make new folder in node_services folder and name it as views and put in it the little example template and name it index.ejs

    3. Make normally in your Developer dateejs.a5w page and put inside:

    Code:
    <%a5 
    dim n as Helper::V8
    dim p as p
    p._id = api_uuidcreate()
    p._command = "expressown"
    dim jsoncmd as c
    jsoncmd = json_generate(p)
    ? n.NodeRequest(jsoncmd)
    ? p._command
    %>
    4. Publish dateejs.a5w and open it in browser and then open new tab and go to http://localhost:3000 and you see the little example template rendered. Note this is Nodejs server not Alpha server running.

    This is just little example. Developers heaven is in javascript and it is available in Alpha Anywhere.

    Note: expressown.js is running in server and user will never see the code in client side so you can protect your own code.
    I will try this when I have time. But: Note this is Nodejs server not Alpha server running - so no xbasic either. Seems interesting but not useful for many.

  13. #73
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    4. Publish dateejs.a5w and open it in browser and then open new tab and go to http://localhost:3000 and you see the little example template rendered. Note this is Nodejs server not Alpha server running.

    This is just little example. Developers heaven is in javascript and it is available in Alpha Anywhere.

    Note: expressown.js is running in server and user will never see the code in client side so you can protect your own code.

    <%A5
    An old school alpha developer goes to heaven arrives at gate localhost:3000. The guard asks "do you have a feature pack" no i am MEAN stack user

    %>
    Last edited by bea2701; 06-30-2015 at 11:09 AM.

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Some of you on the thread want to suggest that alpha is not the best as compared to others for what it does and that there are better alternatives. That's your opinion and would be ok IF you said "what is better".

    When you repeatedly REFUSE to say what's "better", that makes you a troll.

    Note to self, how do I unsubscribe from a thread lost to trolls..... must google that up.

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by Clint2 View Post
    Some of you on the thread want to suggest that alpha is not the best as compared to others for what it does and that there are better alternatives. That's your opinion and would be ok IF you said "what is better".

    When you repeatedly REFUSE to say what's "better", that makes you a troll.

    Note to self, how do I unsubscribe from a thread lost to trolls..... must google that up.
    Clint your correct i think found a solution for those that have so many complaints, it's cheap, fast has a super language called RPG has the best database embedded inside the OS.
    http://www.ebay.nl/itm/IBM-AS-400e-S...item1ea0a6c889

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    When you repeatedly REFUSE to say what's "better", that makes you a troll.
    I would think that it shows one has respect for the hosts here. They pay for this forum and for the space it uses.
    The other is that what is best for one is not always best for another. That generates some friendly competition.
    Of course, if someone gets upset that other people have other ideas would show immaturity.

    I have business associates that agree with me and others that don't. I respect their views and try to understand the reasons for their thinking. When collaborating, we have to agree for the end product. One of my partners is really deep into c#.net, another is into PHP and good at about anything. I respect their ideas and some of them I don't understand. Several of us are into alpha on the desktop side and we don't 100% agree on everything all of the time. A couple are doing, and have done major a5 web apps. Due to cms, I am getting real deep into MySQL/mariadb and PHP, css, js, Jquery, html5. All this is for some websites that are not the normal variety. MsSql is out due to the Linux platform.
    Dave Mason
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Dave is quite right. Civility and respect for different points of view is a hallmark of this message board. Name calling has no place. Keep it civil and respectful please.

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter.Greulich View Post
    Dave is quite right. Civility and respect for different points of view is a hallmark of this message board. Name calling has no place. Keep it civil and respectful please.
    Correct we had that subject debate a few years ago a drama not again please!!, never seen such strange "vendor" discussions on this board then any where else on the internet
    Last edited by bea2701; 06-30-2015 at 01:32 PM.

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by Clint2 View Post
    Note to self, how do I unsubscribe from a thread lost to trolls..... must google that up.
    Come back to the thread, scroll to the very top, click on "Thread Tools" then "Unsubscribe". ...I'm doing that now.
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Preston, when you say InDe do you mean https://software.intel.com/en-us/intel-inde?

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by johnfletchertt View Post
    Preston, when you say InDe do you mean https://software.intel.com/en-us/intel-inde?
    No. sent you a PM

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    After 1 1/2 years of looking and testing I finally made my decision on what I will be using moving on and it does not start with an A.

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by bea2701 View Post
    Clint your correct i think found a solution for those that have so many complaints, it's cheap, fast has a super language called RPG has the best database embedded inside the OS.
    http://www.ebay.nl/itm/IBM-AS-400e-S...item1ea0a6c889
    I programmed on the AS/400 for 15 years including when it was called a System38. There is nothing inexpensive about that box and it's a MINI COMPUTER and won't have developer tools other than RPGIII, CL etc unless you use something else and even then, why not name the RAD tool used ON that AS/400. Even though I love the AS/400 it'll cost thousands of dollars just for the box not to mention the service contract you'd need from IBM. LOL

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by preston2 View Post
    After 1 1/2 years of looking and testing I finally made my decision on what I will be using moving on and it does not start with an A.
    (W)ow good choice best of luck for the future

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Dave - your first paragraph.
    Very nicely put.
    ditto that

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Rabins View Post
    Also we have a new release coming in the next 30-45 days with a lot of important functionality (it has been in pre-release for some time and has been available to subscribers for some time)
    Pre release version is not recommend for production use. It takes more than 6 months from Alpha to publish new stable version.

    This means that user with valid subscription gets total one new version to use in production during one year subscription period.

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by kkfin View Post
    Pre release version is not recommend for production use. It takes more than 6 months from Alpha to publish new stable version.

    This means that user with valid subscription gets total one new version to use in production during one year subscription period.
    What if it's released AFTER the subscription runs out? No 'production' usable release unless another subscription is obtained.
    TYVM :) kenn

    Knowing what you can achieve will not become reality until you imagine and explore.

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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Richard,

    As a subscriber will I be able to convert my standard WAS license to the IIS plugin version of the WAS without having to spend any additional money or is it going to be an added cost?

  29. #89
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Judging from the email I received, It's gonna cost you $999. Although you will get an extra 12 months on your subscription, you will no longer get all and anything which is released during your subscription period. So, what will you get with a subscription?
    TYVM :) kenn

    Knowing what you can achieve will not become reality until you imagine and explore.

  30. #90
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    Default Re: Windev 20 vs alpha v12

    Quote Originally Posted by forskare View Post
    So, what will you get with a subscription?
    You get updates and upgrades(one year) but because of the subscription model there will be no upgrades anymore so in practise you get updates.

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