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Thread: Pre-release and expired subscription

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Pre-release and expired subscription

    For what it's worth, the following verbiage was added to the Pre-Release Notes page within the last day:

    IMPORTANT: The pre-release builds are only available to customers with a valid Alpha Anywhere subscription. If your subscription has expired you will not be able to use the pre-release build.

    If your subscription is valid and you download and use the pre-release build please keep in mind that if you do not renew your subscription after it expires your edibility to use pre-release builds will end.
    -Roger

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Pre-release and expired subscription

    What is different about the Office subscription (I think) is that what you created in Word, for example, can still be printed after the subscription expires. You just can't edit the document any more.

    As I read what Pete posted, it sounds like the Runtime(If still distributed) and AWS stop functioning completely after the subscription expires.

    I think limiting the Developer by subscription is explainable, but trying to tell a client they have to pay for a web application, and pay forever for the use of that site is a tough sell for a developer. Yes, they would be eligible for the AS updates, but if the web app is 'Done', the updates have no meaning to the developer's client.

    I wish AS the best, but I couldn't convince anyone that was a good deal...

    Regardless, I hope AS clarifies their policy to their potential consumer's. Otherwise, every customer that let's their subscription expire leave's with a bad taste in their mouths.

  3. #33
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    Default Re: Pre-release and expired subscription

    Quote Originally Posted by peteconway View Post
    Well - as I said, I only deal with clients that understand they pay the required licenses, I've come to undertand just how expensive it must be to run an entity like Alpha, and the terms are the terms - As a developer I'm happy with the service provided and the advances coming through. Fact is if they aren't funded - they don't continue, and that's not good. So everyone needs to adjust to the process by re-thinking their model, as I have done, it will help you.
    Cheers Pete.
    You got the point. Now it is all about trust. I hope the Alphas customer base is strong enough.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Pre-release and expired subscription

    Guys:

    The software continues to work after your license expires. I am using some expired licenses myself - they work fine.

    It only stops working if you are using a pre-release patch instead of one of the approved patches or if you try to install a patch that is later than your expiration date.

    So long as your release date is prior to your expiration date and it is an approved patch, your software will continue to work.

    Yes - Alpha could spell that out better.

    And also, you can renew your license for other products on a Sunday at 10pm if necessary - while you can't with Alpha. There is stuff they need to work on.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Pre-release and expired subscription

    Larry:

    It sounds like you are a "Legacy" customer. At this point, I and many here are.

    If you read Pete's quote from Selwyn, they are no longer selling that subscription model...

    So, I think the concern here is "What happens to "Legacy" customers down the road when I write a new web app and need a new AWS license.

    Another concern is can AS survive with a model that is so expensive? Certainly, none of my customers would hesitate to look elsewhere even if the end product was less than what can be created in Alpha, but a lot cheaper.

    And, of course, there's the never ending nagging question "What if AS, or it's servers, collapse after I have spent years developing an my own resellable app?"

    In the end, AS determines what steps it needs to take to survive. I just hope it works out well for all.

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Pre-release and expired subscription

    I have trouble believing that Alpha distinguishes between Legacy and non-legacy customers in terms of what subscriptions get shut down and what do not when a license expires.

    And if you read what it says in the pre-release notes now, you will realize that it wouldn't be necessary to add that verbiage if they shut you down when the subscription expires, because they would shut you down whether you had a pre-release or not.

    The end of the subscription ends your ability to get updates. And in today's world, having a working app on an old version of software will only get you by for so long. Eventually, an update to windows will come along or a security flaw will be found and you'll need to update your software. Better to just stay current in the first place.

    Anything else is just eventual suicide, no matter who's software you are using.

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Pre-release and expired subscription

    "I think the real issue here is that we expect customers to have a valid subscription at all times.

    For historical reasons, the legacy customer base (i.e. customers who were v11 users before V12 came out) have a special type of subscription that allows them to continue using the product after their subscription end (but limits them to the last official build that was available at the time their subscription ran out)

    we no longer sell these types of subscriptions anymore.

    we only sell 'true' subscriptions which means you must have a valid subscription at all times in order to use Alpha Anywhere."

    -Selwyn



    Larry:

    Just going by what the big guy says... He is saying There IS a difference between their old customer base, and the new one on how the subscription plays out.. He is also saying that the software is now being rented (For lack of a more accurate term...)

    It is what it is. I hope it works out well for them.

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Pre-release and expired subscription

    Well then, if you need a new subscription - give me a call!

    I'll get you a legacy one for a small fee. Problem solved!

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Pre-release and expired subscription

    In fact it old news u can see for a long time what the roadmap is for A5 incl. priceing. In fact how Selwyn response is the question is is there still room for middle size customers seems tobe pending on (old) customer developers focus has been set on enterprise i think it a long term vision but partly i understand they made huge investment and too see their money.
    A5 now has 3 types of lics, question is will work, i am not sure but it is there business and u have a choice of your own to make agree of bail out.
    In my case i had i client running odata as standard for Phd and patient portal iaw mental healthcare incl. mobile , i have no idea what the price would be seems u have too ask sales but fairly mostly beyond the customer budget that is too say .

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Pre-release and expired subscription

    Larry:

    Thanks for the offer, even if you are kidding a little.

    As Eric seems to be saying, the cost is likely to compromise the percentage of small business clients any of us can get.

    My concerns aside, I hope Alpha does well. I'm sure everything will be fine once we all embrace the concept of the licensing... It's just hard to wrap my head around the cost.

  11. #41
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    Default Re: Pre-release and expired subscription

    Craig the the question is none of us have an direct answer time will tell. As i see it merly enterprise custumers is a risk and big step towards, u have to be sure that is the right path. For myself i know the more SMB companies then fortune 500, so not all agree with A5 vision and priceing it and old debat. For sure as i mentioned the new "true" subscription model has a risk and change policy time by time. I think many develpers don't like it because it will reduce market opertunties u can't sell software with a MUST for long term every year u MUST pay else we take your business down, some will accept that others won't, to end most developers will be held responsible by law in countries because they sell the app server together with there product. So if the WAS/IIS server goes down u better have a good law man site by site. m2p.

  12. #42
    "Certified" Alphaholic DaveM's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pre-release and expired subscription

    I currently purchase(and sell) software or subscribe to software from around the world. That includes France, Germany, England, Italy, Vietnam, USA, Brazil, China, India, and on and on.

    None of them shut the use of the product off if not renewed. They do stop support, updates and sometimes their forum usage but it stops right there.

    These software products include some for Joomla and add-ons, as well as major development products for desktop and/or web apps.

    To shut off an end client's access to their data for a developer's subscription is unthinkable to me, but I may be alone in my thoughts.
    Dave Mason
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  13. #43
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    Default Re: Pre-release and expired subscription

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveM View Post
    I currently purchase(and sell) software or subscribe to software from around the world. That includes France, Germany, England, Italy, Vietnam, USA, Brazil, China, India, and on and on.

    None of them shut the use of the product off if not renewed. They do stop support, updates and sometimes their forum usage but it stops right there.

    These software products include some for Joomla and add-ons, as well as major development products for desktop and/or web apps.

    To shut off an end client's access to their data for a developer's subscription is unthinkable to me, but I may be alone in my thoughts.
    Adobe has started doing this with their products ie) Photoshop, now you can only subscribe and if you stop the subscription, the software quits!

  14. #44
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    Default Re: Pre-release and expired subscription

    completly wird behavior no other words

  15. #45
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    Default Re: Pre-release and expired subscription

    Quote Originally Posted by iRadiate View Post
    Adobe has started doing this with their products ie) Photoshop, now you can only subscribe and if you stop the subscription, the software quits!
    Photoshop is for artist developers. Images and pictures or animations made with Photoshop will not disappear anywhere if your subscription of Photoshop ends. So totally different story than with Alpha

  16. #46
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    Default Re: Pre-release and expired subscription

    Quote Originally Posted by iRadiate View Post
    Adobe has started doing this with their products ie) Photoshop, now you can only subscribe and if you stop the subscription, the software quits!
    Also I would like to inform that although Photoshop is the MUST in for example game development the price of Photoshop subscription is about 300 per year. And in practice Alphas is 2500.

  17. #47
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    Default Re: Pre-release and expired subscription

    Quote Originally Posted by kkfin View Post
    Photoshop is for artist developers. Images and pictures or animations made with Photoshop will not disappear anywhere if your subscription of Photoshop ends. So totally different story than with Alpha
    The model is the same! If you don't renew the software, you can't continue to use it. I can generate many reports with Alpha and keep them as well. I can keep my SQL database that I create with Alpha.
    Last edited by iRadiate; 08-31-2016 at 08:01 PM.

  18. #48
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    Default Re: Pre-release and expired subscription

    Quote Originally Posted by kkfin View Post
    Also I would like to inform that although Photoshop is the MUST in for example game development the price of Photoshop subscription is about 300 per year. And in practice Alphas is 2500.
    That was just an example. If you were a professional illustrator you would have far more than just Adobe tools and I guarantee you would be running equivalent costs. The price wasn't actually my point at all!
    Last edited by iRadiate; 08-31-2016 at 08:03 PM.

  19. #49
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    Default Re: Pre-release and expired subscription

    "If you were a professional illustrator you would have far more Adobe tools that just Photoshop and I guarantee you would be running equivalent costs."

    Not a true statement. All you might need beyond Photoshop would be Illustrator (Raster versus Vector). Both total $600 a year. I use Photoshop as much as I do AA. Both get significant development each year for that price.

    Or, Gimp is free and can work well for that price.

    Additionally, if I sell my creations in Photoshop, perhaps a logo, my customer does not (Or would refuse to) pay me month after month.

    I'm not tying to inflame your temper, or anything, but if I didn't call myself a developer, I'd call myself a graphics artist.

    For the record, I called a customer today, and told him the new pricing. The conversation didn't go well for AS... Try as I did.

    Again, I'm not trying to irritate... But I am confident Alpha is hitting a point where they are too expensive. (Which is funny, since I was probably the first person to tell him he was under priced some 10 years ago...)

  20. #50
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    Default Re: Pre-release and expired subscription

    While Alpha Software welcomes feedback and even constructive criticism of its products, please keep this thread on-topic. Links that recommend competitive products are not appropriate. And while comparisons to licensing models of other software products are relevant, suggestions for alternatives to Photoshop, etc. are off-topic.

    Lenny Forziati
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    Alpha Software Corporation

  21. #51
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    Default Re: Pre-release and expired subscription

    Lenny, the post you deleted was 50/50 FOR Alpha.
    I presumed incorrectly that you would respond to the post but if you prefer Twitter, Skype, LinkedIn then that's your choice.
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  22. #52
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    Default Re: Pre-release and expired subscription

    @Lenny, I apologize if I crossed an unknown line, but thought any alternatives for outside products to help our alpha brothers and sister keep costs down while working with alpha would be a blessing to them.
    Dave Mason
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  23. #53
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    Default Re: Pre-release and expired subscription

    Lenny,

    An On topic response that clears up any lingering doubts about Alpha licensing would be appropriate, don't you think?

    It would bring the topic back to where it should be and possibly even END the discussion if the response was clear and to the point.

    While you are at it - a proposal for how to handle subscriptions that expire on dates and/or times someone from Alpha is not available to renew a subscription (or maybe a link to a site where we could make a renewal online) would also be appropriate. I can recommend a software product that would make such an online payment quite easy.

    Am I asking too much here?

  24. #54
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    Default Re: Pre-release and expired subscription

    Quote Originally Posted by lgrupido View Post
    Lenny,

    An On topic response that clears up any lingering doubts about Alpha licensing would be appropriate, don't you think?

    It would bring the topic back to where it should be and possibly even END the discussion if the response was clear and to the point.
    Selwyn's explanation of licensing was already posted in this thread. I cannot comment further on license offerings or policies, but I can attempt to clarify his statement.

    Alpha Five Version 11 and prior licenses are all perpetual licenses. If you own one of these licenses, you may use that software indefinitely.

    Alpha Anywhere (V12) is subscription based and the subscriptions have had 2 different models:
    • Initial Alpha Anywhere subscriptions included a perpetual license that allowed indefinite use of the software, up to the last official release available when the subscription expires. If the subscription expires and the software is newer than the latest official release available on the expiration date, the software will not work. This can be resolved by applying an older patch.
    • Current Alpha Anywhere subscriptions do NOT include a perpetual license. When the subscription expires, you will be unable to use the software. This is the only type of subscription that is currently offered. Your data is yours and will not be locked or blocked in any way, but you will not be able to use Alpha Anywhere to access it.


    The second type of subscription (without a perpetual license) is the only subscription currently being offered by Alpha Software. All new subscribers will have this type of subscription.

    If you do not know which type of subscription you have, you can contact your sales rep directly or email sales @ alphasoftware.com. Similarly, contact sales if this explanation is still unclear, or if you are interested in some type of custom license offering.


    Quote Originally Posted by lgrupido View Post
    While you are at it - a proposal for how to handle subscriptions that expire on dates and/or times someone from Alpha is not available to renew a subscription (or maybe a link to a site where we could make a renewal online) would also be appropriate. I can recommend a software product that would make such an online payment quite easy.
    Regarding the ability to renew at any time, this is something that is in process. There will be an online portal where you can view your existing subscriptions and renew them directly. Taking the online payment is the easy part, what is missing is the integration with the licensing system to allow the payment to immediately extend a subscription. Unfortunately there is no firm ETA for the roll-out of this.

    Lenny Forziati
    Vice President, Internet Products and Technical Services
    Alpha Software Corporation

  25. #55
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    Default Re: Pre-release and expired subscription

    Lenny,

    Thank you.

    I do have other questions, but they pertain more to my subscription than to subscriptions in general, so I will do as you suggest and contact my sales rep.

    Larry

  26. #56
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    Default Re: Pre-release and expired subscription

    Lenny,

    Thank you for the further clarification. That is very helpful!

    Stephen

  27. #57
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    Default Re: Pre-release and expired subscription

    Quote Originally Posted by Lenny Forziati View Post
    Regarding the ability to renew at any time, this is something that is in process. There will be an online portal where you can view your existing subscriptions and renew them directly. Taking the online payment is the easy part, what is missing is the integration with the licensing system to allow the payment to immediately extend a subscription. Unfortunately there is no firm ETA for the roll-out of this.
    You are kind of playing with fire here. You really should create the ability to renew a subscription quickly and easily BEFORE you start to turn them off automatically. One of these days a really big customer is going to get turned off automatically. Imagine, for instance, Amazon shutting down because of a licensing issue. Who's side would the media be on when that hits the news? Is it really worth the potentially bad publicity?

    Note: I make my living off this product - I ask because I care and because such a scandal would potentially affect my ability to sell your product. When my customer asks "What happens if there is a licensing problem", I'd like to have a better response than I don't have any idea ....

  28. #58
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    Default Re: Pre-release and expired subscription

    ****
    Last edited by bea2701; 09-02-2016 at 02:47 AM.

  29. #59
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    Default Re: Pre-release and expired subscription

    FWIW, here is a good article on different licensing models: https://talentedlearning.com/3-license-models-of-lms/
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  30. #60
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    Default Re: Pre-release and expired subscription

    When my customer asks "What happens if there is a licensing problem"
    I think it's a pretty fair and truthful statement to say that they need not worry as it will be taken care of ASAP.
    Of course, that's just my opinion and you can print it out and fire it into the ceiling fan or not.

    My experience so far with Alpha Software, and partners such as Zebrahost, and on down to individual developers like Colts and Wood who sell add-ons - When things get tough - the tough get going. None of them have ever let me down in a pinch!
    Of course in this world things can happen, as a responsible developer, I am sure you will work to resolve it. I think that's the best anybody can ask for.
    Stuff Happens !

    That being said I think it is SUPER important as a developer selling a product that you realize you may be selling that license in perpetuity when your pitching your idea. You have to explain WHY they will need to pay (someone) monthly for the application that you are developing for them.
    I see that as a HARD sell personally - BUT I am developing a multi-tenant SAAS application so for me this works.
    If I was going to build an app for a cement truck company I think convincing them it will be an ongoing monthly expense even before we get to my fees might be a tough sell. It doesn't help that the cement company guys I have met are Neanderthals, but I digress.

    I see the subscription model as a tax write off...an expense for the cost of goods sold as it were.
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