A4V7 is it worth it?

[David Mason]

RE: A4V7 is it worth it?

Jeff,

I have a great skill too. I am maybe the best side draft su carburetor mechanic around. They had to quit making those about 30 years ago because of epa. I never learned the next step, so now I cannot work on fuel injection. I loved those old carbs.

Dos is Dead and I do not believe Alpha will try to move my old friend a4 to windows. That would have been done a long time ago if feasible.

Discussing this is terrible - I have old dos apps too, and they work real good in a4v6. I have and am rewriting in a4v4.5 right now and some had already been moved to a5v1. I like that version too.

Dave

[Rick Sloan]

RE: Windoz A4

Hi Jeff

You are quite right. There will always be a need and a place for A5. It will have the GUI. As I have said many times in this string, A4 will be a choice for people who do not require the GUI. Many of us do not, but would like the benefit of faxing and E-mailing from within the program. You know, office type stuff.

If, for instance, I owned a real estate company that required a picture of the house along with say, a virtual tour (which would allow good use of the GUI) I would not hestitate in purchasing A5.

There are millions of offices (from the largest corportations to the smallest "home based" businesses) that do not require the GUI. I dare say there are AT LEAST the same number of non-GUI companies as there are companies that would benefit from the GUI. That alone would make it a viable business venture for ALPHA if properly marketed.

If someone initially used A4 and then found some time down the road a need for the GUI, logic would dictate there could be a simple transfer of all data because A4 would be truly written for Windoz. Alpha could even market a "transfer" program because of this fact.

A4v7 is a great stop gap. The program now seems to work fine (especially after the patch)....but I emphasis stop gap. A windoz version would offer so much more, without the learning curve.

On the business side, Alpha is in a unique situation. They have a guaranteed market share right from the get-go. As soon as the A4 windoz version is marketed, all current A4 users WILL (for obvious reasons) purchase it. There are probably people who (after purchasing A5) will revert back. Not bad, huh? There are not too many companies out there that can boast that kind of loyalty AND CLOUT.

Alpha 4 is simply the best Database program out there for non programmers, and a Windoz version will simply continue this great tradition.

RS

[CALocklin]

RE: Conversion from A4 to A5

Based on Rick's comments, it will be interesting to see if and what Alpha comes up with in the way of A4 for Windoz. It can probably be can be done. The question is, "Is it worth it for Alpha?" After all, they are in business to make money.

The CONVERSION issue: (i.e., not refering to A4 for Windoz)

Although I understand what you mean with your Quicken comparison, I don't think this is really a good comparison. Since Quicken is an application, you are comparing two applications and saying that the data in the DOS application was seamlessly converted to the Windows application. Looking at it from that perspective, I can say that the data for all of the A4 DOS applications that I have converted was able to be seamlessly converted to the A5 application. HOWEVER, I had to do a lot of work to build the A5 application just like many programmers had to work many hours to build the Quicken for Windows application.

"I have put much, much more development into field rules and layouts than I have into scripting."
I'm sure this isn't true of everyone (at least it wasn't for me) but it's probably not uncommon and it certainly brings up a good point. If I were going to list an order of priority for conversion from A4 to A5, it would be something like this:
1. Field rule conversion. (They are basically the same but cut-and-paste isn't possible.)
2. Calculated fields in forms/reports.
3. Index definitions.
4. Report layouts. (This is probably very difficult.)

It seems to me that items 1-3 might not be terribly difficult but #4 is probably a real killer.

FYI: After making the "cut-and-paste isn't possible" comment, I experimented a bit with the documenter. It is possible to print to a generic text printer and then open that document in a Windows app such as WordPad in order to cut and paste the rules, calc fields, and indexes. That will at least make things faster than a completely manual rebuild. Wish I'd thought of it sooner.

As far as scripts go, I think from A4 to A5 this would be next to impossible - too much difference in basic concepts.

The reason I don't list forms at all is that I would find it minimally useful for a conversion from A4 to A5. (Note that I'm still talking conversion here.) I've done screen dumps of complex forms so I can see the general layout but find that I can usually make the forms much more user friendly in A5 so they are often significantly modified. Building most forms is pretty easy so I don't see a lot of value here - at least not for me.

[David Mason]

RE: A4V7 is it worth it?

I just left a customer whom I made a payroll app for about 8 years ago and updtaed it several times. He is pleading that I now rewrite it in Windows.

One more omen for me

Dave

[Michael Squyres]

RE: Conversion from A4 to A5

Cal,

Thanks for this insight. I have never written an Alpha database program for anyone else, but I have written and refined several significant databases for organizations in which I am a member. I then become the database "tender," and add many refinements as they become useful. I have many hundreds of manhours invested in these databases, both development and maintenance.

My point is that I tend to think of Alpha4 in very much the same way I do anything from Intuit because I use them in similar ways. Perhaps, my use of Alpha4 is more like that of QuickBooks where I you do quite of bit of development (albeit mostly in the area of problem definition and Layout, rather than coding).

I agree with your list and think that AlphaSoftware could market such a conversion program (DOS -> DOZ) with great success. Hopefully, the success of A4v7 will be the proof of this thesis.

Mike

[forskare]

RE: A4V7 is it worth it?

I think Dave "HIT IT ON THE HEAD"!! For those who don't develop and only use A4 for their purposes, I agree that further development of A4 would be real handy. None the less, that audience is limited and I believe after A5v5 is out, those numbers may dwindle a bit more. That will depend on the cost ov v5. If it's significantly higher than A4, I expect to see some shift back.

Having said that, for the developers, it's their customers who will drive the market for A5 vs A4. They'll keep up with Bill's latest stuff. That will drive v5 and the developers.

If Alpha wants to attract users and developers from Access, Filemaker, Paradox and others, A4 will not get it done, no matter how much it's developed. It simply isn't windows driven, the 'others' won't switch. They'll just keep the 'itch'.


After reading the response to my last post, I was still left with the question as to why Alpha would put 2 products on the market that will go head to head. The future bucks for Alpha is not in A4 but A5. Any further development of A4 is only for a limited few. If Alpha gets into schools or university, it won't be with A4, no matter what is done with it.

kenn

[Ken L Herrold]

RE: A4V7 is it worth it?

One More time:

All: For what it is worth re: building applications for others....

In A4 I developed a neat Trucking Company application and have sold 4 copies of it. The last one was to a pretty computer up-to-date office who's people were very used to using a mouse, tab for field to field, and THE WAIT for gui screen draws. They had been working Excel and Access before. I heard comments about navigation in Alpha like "This is really dumb" - "Man this is awkward" - generally unfavorable. They literally had to learn new navigational skills to use this DOS based program.

The point here is... Maybe our clientele WANTS a gui and doesn't want DOS. [God, could Gates still be winning?]

Food for thought

Ken

[Rick Sloan]

RE: A4V7 is it worth it?

Hi ken and all.

If you guys are writing programs for other people/companies ... I would suggest you learn and use A5 and A4. That's logical and makes for good business. Give the client what they want or need (A4 or A5). During my comments in this string, I was never talking about doing programs for other people.

I find it strange that people who like and use A5, seem almost "paranoid" about a windows A4. A4 will not go "head to head" with A5, but will compliment each other. Don't worry! Put your minds at ease. I am positive Alpha will not drop A5 for a Windows A4.....although I am sure a few people frustrated with the learning curve of A5, will convert to A4.

Anyway, what does Alpha care as long as we are using their product?!

RS

[forskare]

RE: A4V7 is it worth it?

Hi Rick,

**During my comments in this string, I was never talking about doing programs for other people.**

That limits the user base of A4 even more.

**I find it strange that people who like and use A5, seem almost "paranoid" about a windows A4. **

No paranoia about windoz A4. Why would Alpha want to continue to develop a product that has a limited user base, especially when they are trying to promote the user base for A5.

**although I am sure a few people frustrated with the learning curve of A5**

I agree, but, I suspect v5 will cut the learning curve drastically.

Are you saying that if A4 continues to be developed, it will have the look and/or feel of A5?

kenn

[Rick Sloan]

RE: A4V7 is it worth it?

Hi Ken.

No, nor would we want it to.

RS

[Rick Sloan]

RE: A4V7 is it worth it?

I keep hearing about this upcoming A5v5. You guys keep intimating that we will want to switch when A5.v5 comes out. Everyone is talking about this product like it is the magic bullet. Maybe V5 will be the "by all and end all" of versions. Then all Alpha users will want to gravitate to the A5 product. But you know, somehow I doubt it....and until Alpha comes up with "it", there will be limited users for A5 as well.

I for one don't want or need the "Look or Feel" of A5. I think that is A4's best trait. However, you could always make A4 menu driven. You people who use and like A5, run with it and be happy. A windows A4 will be for the rest of us.

You keep talking about limited users for a Windoz A4. I disagree. I really think you are grossly under estimating the longevity and client base (past and future) of A4. From what I see (in this string alone) there is a huge learning curve for A5. That will not change with A5v5.

From what I read the documentation and tutorials are not anywhere near as good as with A4. I can say that for sure, because I was one of the people who enthusiastically purchased A5v1 when it came out. It was horrible to say the least and a total waste of my money. To say the documentation was lacking is a monumental understatement. It is currently filed under "W" for wasted money and is collecting dust somewhere. There are still the same complaints (in this string alone) and Alpha is at A5v4.5 with its product?

I simply went back to using A4.

Since that time I have ensured any of my new computers use Win 98 and I use HP printers. Thus allowing me to use A4. I use the typeset mode for all my letters and envelopes (which carry my company logo in the typset mode as well).

The new A4v7 is a great stop gap in that it allows us to use our product with the new operating systems. However, this product allows us to use windows printer drivers in standard mode only. Therefore, it still restricts the printers I buy (to namely HP).

In this A4v7 forum many problems have occurred regarding printers. This would be elimintated with a windows A4 (as would all other anomalies associated with trying to make a dos program work with the windoz operating system).

I do find it strange you are trying to sell an A5 product that is not even out yet. You do not know if A5v5 is "the" product. I also fear you will making the same comments in the future, like "wait till A5v7 comes out. I hear it will be "the" best".

RS

[rcbobsmith]

RE: A4V7 is it worth it?

Hello Everyone,

A5v5 the end all program????? Seems I've heard this before. I think the first time was A5, then a5v2 then a5v3 then a5v4, call me when it hits a5v6 then it may be almost as good as a4v6. we have purchased most of the a5 versions only to install test, uninstall and put on the dust collecting shelf. We purchased all of the A4 versions and every one was used until the next one came out. Of course we were never fully happy with any version but each one was better than the previous. and with some people (like me)we always find something lacking even in great programs like a4 but when we bring up the short commings it seems some one is listening because the next version usually addresses the the complaints.

I am sure that A5 will be around and used by many and I believe as long as it is possible A4 will continue to be used by the rest of us. No one program can satisfy everyone. There is a need for A4 and A5. We A4 users just want a few more upgrades say A4v99.

[Rich Drabik]

RE: A4V7 is it worth it?

I think that there is a place for both A4 and A5. I've created several applications in both, and their success depended on how the databases were used. The A4 databases were used to enter large numbers of records, usually in batches of 50, at one time. Experienced data entry folks found A4 easy and fast to work with. No mouse. The A4 databases were great for collecting records from different types of program monitoring, surveys, etc. There wasn't a lot of data manipulation, no making frequent changes to individual records: just entry, storage, then report and summarize. Generally, the data entry screen was easy to read because the 80 col by 25 or 43 row screen made efficient visual organization mandatory. Less was good.

A5 never worked well for us in this respect, even when making every effort to make data entry totally keyboard dependent. The entry screens just didn't have the right feel and people who could type inevitably ran into trouble when trying to enter a large number of records. Perhaps they would type faster that A5 could handle the input, I'm not sure. But for fast and extensive data entry, A5 never seemed to work as well as A4.

On the other hand, A5 is much more elegant and offers more features for the type of database application where records are entered individually, not en masse, and were regular changes are made to individual records. Browses are more useful and easier to navigate. I don't particularly like more than one window open at a time, but that's just me. I know that many out there design applications that take advantage of the ability to open several windows at once, possibly to compare different records, possibly to cut and paste from one to the other, whatever. For those kinds of database applications that did not involve entering large amounts of data at one time, I usually found A5 had more to offer. And setting up reports is no more difficult than in A4, and a whole lot easier compared to using the typesetting method in A4. Typesetting mode was a real boon in A4, but to do a really nice job of it with proportional fonts, a lot of time had to be spent. The same thing can be achieved in A5 (except for one exception I can think of that is too obscure to describe) with Windows fonts as it takes in A4 to set up the report in standard mode.

Personally, there were times when I knew a better, more useful application could be built for a particular purpose in A4, but used A5 because the user was only experienced with Windows and thought that anything done in DOS (horrors!) couldn't be any good. Also, we had a problem with using A4 when we went to NT 4.0, because our IT department actually refused to believe that DOS programs would run under NT, so it was impossible to get them to set up printing from A4 over the network. Existing A4 applications were left on old machines running WIN95 and having dedicated printers. New A4 applications were out of the question under these circumstances.

Both definitely have a place. Having learned both I don't think the "learning curve" for A5 is a good reason to stick with A4, but I do think there is a good reason to stick with it if it can do a particular job better and more efficiently than A5. I think that depends on how the database is used. I use both for my own personal use, depending on which seems most appropriate for the task at hand. Sometimes, I'll even do all the data manipulation in A4, but use A5 to generate the printed output. (Did I hear a gasp?)

[Tom Cone Jr]

RE: A4V7 is it worth it?

Richard,

You've touched on some points that ring true in my own experiences here. -- tom

[CALocklin]

RE: A4V7 is it worth it?

Richard,

Very well stated!