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The Cost of RT?

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    #16
    RE: The Cost of RT?

    Ken

    Thank you for picking up on my comments. The point I was trying to make was that we consider that we are all little Rolls Royce builders and we dont want to purchase a Ford plant to develope our applications. The new version will only be able to run on one machine as it will be registered to just that machine. Most of us, I beleive who run small offices/networks will now need to buy the development kit and a RT licence to cover the number of nodes. This is going to prove a very expensive upgrade when all the credit they have is from the 4.5 and the 4.5 RT. Not all of us are selling our apps to recover the RT licence and those that are can play around all day with how the cost can be split amoungst end users. I am not sugesting that a seperate price be charged for the app and the RT but because you are making a tailor made app you dont know if there are going to be other customers, unless you are established in that market. So the first customer will have to pay for the RT and IF you then sell other apps you can make a little extra profit by reselling the RT, but that is only IF. In the mean time the RT should not be priced to such an extent that present Alpha users will have to consider very hard about an upgrade, especially when they have got a system that is doing what they want at the moment. The price structure with 4 and 4.5 seems to of satisfied everybody, to jump them up because a few developers can afford to pass it on to their clients will leave a bad tast in the mouth of many Alpha users. If the price is too high then all the hard work Selwyn and crew have done will go out the window. I would pay the $300 for the Developers Kit and the extra $500 for RT 1-5 nodes but that would be my limit as a small time user and hopefully developer, anthing more than that and I think I will have to stick with my 4.5.

    Keith Hubert
    London.
    Regards
    Keith Hubert
    Alpha Guild Member
    London.
    KHDB Management Systems
    Skype = keith.hubert


    For your day-to-day Needs, you Need an Alpha Database!

    Comment


      #17
      RE: The Cost of RT?

      Sorry I didn't keep up with thread and didn't respond to Selwyn's comment:

      "How does giving away the RT to the developer provide any eventual benefit to Alpha?"

      Guess I didn't explain very well. If it was a one-time RT, only used by the developer in designing the application, then whenever the app was sold, RT's would be sold for each workstation. So the Developer's RT would only work in the Developer's environment. Not sure how you would ensure this, but I bet you could do it.

      Tom

      Comment


        #18
        RE: The Cost of RT?

        I have read all the comments about the futue V5. I have used seversal versions of Alpha back thru the years. It now appears that the future of Alpha Software is at a stratigic point in the release of version 5. If their pricing is too high which is indicated by most of the persons responding, then Alpha will loose a lot of their present database customers. It appears that this is very serious and may be brewing. We have had about a 2 year lag in major upgrades.I assume Alpha 5v5 is a very good program but if Alpha Software prices V5 as planned, I can not afford it. I too am a small business that has need for special purpose desigining in my business. Alpha need to increase distribution thru more agressive recognization of the product, not slice it up in pieces and require high prices. I too have been waiting for Version 5 and still wonder it it will ever be shipped? At the projected prices I see very few new useres being added to Alpha Family. This Alpha Fourm has some very knowledgeable database users that love to help other users. Sad to say but I seen hints that several of these could be moving to other datase programs. This will be bad for current users and extremely bad for Alpha Software.

        Doyle Irby

        Comment


          #19
          RE: The Cost of RT?

          Keith,

          ...The new version will only be able to run on one machine as it will be registered to just that machine....

          Not so, you can put it on your machine at home/office and on your laptop.

          ...Most of us, I believe who run small offices/networks will now need to buy the development kit and a RT licence to cover the number of nodes...

          True, same as before. You can buy the 3 or 5 pack w/o RT or the 3-user RT.

          ...So the first customer will have to pay for the RT and IF you then sell other apps you can make a little extra profit by reselling the RT, but that is only IF. In the mean time the RT should not be priced to such an extent that present Alpha users will have to consider very hard about an upgrade, especially when they have got a system that is doing what they want at the moment...

          I agree! That could be a very tough sell job. I wouldn't want to try to sell a 4-10 user RT to a client for $1500 and then another $2500 for a specialized app.

          ...If the price is too high then all the hard work Selwyn and crew have done will go out the window...

          How true this is!!! I believe I'm hearing a message from some distinguished developers that they will probably stay with v4.5 rather than pay $1500 for a 10 user RT. They don't need the bells and whistles. Any bells and whistles they desire, they can write.

          Another point, "IF" the price is too high, that will do two things; 1) limit sales and 2) encourage priacy. Both are ugly and hurt not just Alpha but Alpha's customers as well.

          kenn
          TYVM :) kenn

          Knowing what you can achieve will not become reality until you imagine and explore.

          Comment


            #20
            RE: The Cost of RT?

            Here's 2 cents worth from a large user.

            I just went to my fiscal manager and we discussed what I have been reading here in these threads. Although nobody really wants to spend upwards of $5000 for software, one must take into consideration the benefit of running a large application with many users. Our county agency would be in the dark ages if not for Alpha Software and the efforts of 4 dedicated developers. I am, by education, a systems analyst. I took 2 caseworkers and one administrative assistant who had some interest in computers and turned them into Alpha developers. All other county's in the state look to us for innovation. We have given our applications away to any that asked. Alpha Software and the applications we developed have enabled our workers to do so much more with much less effort. This translates into saved Taxpayer $$$$$. Although it is not easily measured, it is obvious.

            Our applications are in ver 1.02. The conversion to ver 5 will be great, but the rewards will far outweigh the costs. I have already begun usin xdialog instead of separate forms. This product is terrific.

            Tom Henkel
            Sr. Systems Analyst
            Bergen County (NJ) Board of Social Services

            Comment


              #21
              RE: The Cost of RT?

              Thomas,

              I think you are the exception. You've done a fantastic job and a lighthouse for others. However, would they spend $5000 if it were running on v4.5? Because of the job you did and the atiquatedness of the software, it's long overdue. No doubt that was the over riding factor to spend $5000, or at least a strong factor.

              Our county would not. Would our county spend $5000 to begin a new program given your scenario? Not unless it was an absolute necessity and there was no other software to do it.


              Now, if I, as a developer, had a huge client or sufficient clients, I could spread the 5k out a bit and make it bearable. I still think non developers will beg off. But....time will tell.

              kenn


              kenn
              TYVM :) kenn

              Knowing what you can achieve will not become reality until you imagine and explore.

              Comment


                #22
                RE: The Cost of RT?

                The bottom line is, people aren't going to shell out 5K unless it works ofr them financially. My company shells out 3K a copy for Autocad licenses - it really kills me, but it's a business expense. Autocad prcing IMHO is a big ripoff. Now don't get me wrong, it is an extremely powerful and sophisticated program. Since they are the industry standard we have to go with them. But they have millions of users and they could sell Acad for $300 a copy and still make plenty of money, but human nature being what it is, they will sqeeze the max out of their customers as long as they can get away with it. At least MS sells its operating system at a reasonable price. Unfortunately, Alpha needs to recognize that they are neither Autocad (Autodesk) nor are they Microsoft. They have to sell their product what the market will bear. Alpha may feel their product is worth 5K. Tom Henkel and me might be willing to pay the price. But many many others -whom Alpha relies on to pay their bills, may not feel the same way. This same scenario unfolded back at Ver. 3 I believe. Alpha wanted to sell the runtime for the same 5K back then as it does now. After exactly the same kind of protests and howels from the user community they backed off. They seem to have some kind of a dis-connect with regard to pricing and their users. Sure they have worked hard and sweated bullets, but that doesn't mean they should alienate their user base - cutting off their nose to spite their face, as it were. Hopefully, they will read the hand writing on the virtual walls and price in a way that the large majority of users can afford.

                --My 2 cents
                PG
                Peter
                AlphaBase Solutions, LLC

                [email protected]
                https://www.alphabasesolutions.com


                Comment


                  #23
                  RE: The Cost of RT?

                  Just for the record:

                  I can't speak for anyone else - but this thread is very disturbing to me. The advent of the new release should be bringing hope, inspiration, and much excitement to all us "Alphies" that Alpha will likely grow and prosper as a result of the new release - which would be good for us all, not least of which is ME. But as it is, I'm frightened by all this, and extremely leary of even messing with or investing time in learning the new version, much less telling my clients about it; there would be a considerable learning curve and conversion process. And until things settle and I see what's going to happen, I'm going to wait.

                  given that most of the new features make it easier for a "new" user to use Alpha, and especially the "non-programmer," then most of the new income would logically come from completely "new" users, I would keep the price of the full version at the same price it is now - 145.00. That way a lot of new people will see the results of Richard's work in promoting the product, and buy it.

                  I can see having ranges for the runtime and multiuser packs. Someone running 100 workstations should pay more than someone running 1.

                  But unless the product and its cost attract a big new customer base, I am at risk that Alpha could fold. I had this happen to me once with a language back in the 80's, and I'm not going to risk myself or my clients with that possibility.


                  Cole Custom Programming - Terrell, Texas
                  972 524 8714
                  [email protected]

                  ____________________
                  "A young man who is not liberal has no heart, but an old man who is not conservative has no mind." GB Shaw

                  Comment


                    #24
                    RE: The Cost of RT?

                    To repeat, Alpha has gone through this before. Ver. 5 is not merely a user-friendlier version of ver. 4. It dramatically and geometrically extends and expands the power of Alpha! Alpha is not going anywhere. They weathered a severe crisis a number of years ago and have been steadily improving their product and user base ever since. Alpha needs to address the pricing issue to reflect its majority customer base and future customer base. They need to assess where they are in the market and price accordingly. I wouldn�t hesitate at all on proceeding with an Alpha purchase. It is a good investment, a powerful, powerful product, developed by a team with real passion and love for their product. Remember � he who hesitates is lost! No clich�.
                    Peter
                    AlphaBase Solutions, LLC

                    [email protected]
                    https://www.alphabasesolutions.com


                    Comment


                      #25
                      RE: The Cost of RT?

                      There appears not to be enough emotional comments on the pricing of V5, so I'll add a few cents worth from Louisiana.

                      I am the best definition of a small developer - just me. I do my Alpha work at night after school and on the weekends. I have very few clients, but those I do have are running apps written in A4V6 and they are happy with what they have. The reason I've been working on converting to A5V5 is because of the growing compatibility issue with new operating systems and DOS based programs, as well as new hardware (printers, etc.).

                      I don't know what pricing structure Alpha will establish, but I hope it is something I can live with. If it isn't, I'll have a couple of choices: get out of the database development game, or find another product to work with. Frankly, I'm sick and tired of changing products every few years. I'm too damn old to keep learning new programs!!!

                      If one reviews an intro economics textbook, you will find that when business is slow, you do not generate more revenue by raising prices, but rather by lowering prices! Now, I'm not suggesting that Alpha drop the price of V5 below what is already on the market, but at least leave the price the SAME as what is on the market.

                      Where is more revenue going to come from in this scenario? I have one of my students working with Richard on a program to get the Alpha name out to community colleges to plant the seed that there is a better database product available than Access. When these students get their hands on A5V5 and see what is can do and how easy it is to do it, I can almost guarantee that the market share of the company will grow along with their revenue! A lot of the community college students are business people who are taking what they learn in class back to the workplace.

                      I don't want to hurt anyone feelings (yeah, right), but I don't really care what the cost of the 50+ RT is because I don't have any installations with that kind of user count. I think in terms of 10 users and less. If the need for a 50+ RT ever presents itself, I would think that the cost of the RT could easily be folded into the total cost of the delivered product.

                      Dave Jampole
                      Dave Jampole
                      www.customalpha.com

                      Women and cats will do whatever they want. The sooner men and dogs realize that, the happier they will be.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        RE: The Cost of RT?

                        What sort of comments can the group make if Alpha was to sell through a software distributor? Obviously the number of units sold would be much higher,
                        but the profits on each sale would be less. I am aware that the Alpha
                        programming group are sweating bullets while overtime wages have become
                        enormous. (The programmers are laughing loud right now about overtime
                        wages.) But seriously, how does one equate the bottom line on selling
                        many copies through a distributor or fewer copies direct. In any event
                        I'd like to see Alpha reap the rewards they are due for all of their
                        effort,hard work and dedication toward perfection.

                        efs (hope one day to be a pro at A5.5) "BOO ACCESS"

                        Comment


                          #27
                          RE: The Cost of RT?

                          I'd like to see Alpha reap the rewards they are due for all of their effort,hard work and dedication toward perfection.


                          Right. But in order to do so, they need to be realistic with regard to their user base. This requires dispassionate analysis of their business situation, not biased attachment to their hard and inspired efforts.
                          Peter
                          AlphaBase Solutions, LLC

                          [email protected]
                          https://www.alphabasesolutions.com


                          Comment


                            #28
                            RE: The Cost of RT?

                            OK, I can't take it any more. I have to add my 2 cents. (OK, maybe it's more like 15 cents.)

                            First, I'd really like to know the actual cost of the various runtime options before making a final judgement.

                            Second, somebody mentioned 1500 for a 4-10 user runtime. For most small to medium sized companies a 10 user runtime will be adequate. OK, it's not cheap but don't forget about the cost of development time. Let's assume I build an application for $2500. Whether I develop it for someone else or I do it for my own company, it still takes time, facilities, etc. so consider it as $2500 regardless. Now add the $1500 runtime to get a total cost of $4000. Oops, lets add the developer's version too. I don't recall the cost but let's call it $400 for a final cost of $4400 dollars.

                            Now, scenario #2: I don't like Alpha any more because they charge too much for the runtime so I decide to use Access - assumed by many to be "easy to use" meaning rapid development and, therefore, inexpensive.

                            Scenario #2a: I hire an outside Access developer to build the same application. Since Access takes about twice as long for developing the same application, the cost is expected to be only $5000. (Good luck on the $5000, the cost of "concept development" with a new consultant could eat up an additional $1000 plus the cost to install the program on your network and get it up and running - figure another $500. See below.) We'll assume there is no need to actually buy any copy of Access to run this on our own system - all is provided by the developer.

                            Scenario #2b: I'm developing this for my own company so I will first have to learn how to use Access. Let's see that takes about twice as long a learning to do the same thing in Alpha - which I already know how to do. Also, it takes about twice as long to actually build the app. So, let's be very, very conservative and say the cost (or time) to build the app internally only goes up 2.5 times overall. This makes the total cost $6250 plus the cost of Access itself. (Some might also want to consider the lost time on 'normal' work.) Access is probably at least $300 so we now have $6550.

                            Gee! It only cost me somewhere around $1000-2000 to spite Alpha. And I haven't even considered the cost of future application changes, fixes, updates.

                            Now, let's be more realistic. After doing this on my own for a few months I've come to realize that about $1000 should be added to the cost of developing a simple app for a new customer just to cover all the discussions that will be required to make sure I understand exactly how they run, or want to run, that part of their business. Then I need to add another 500 or so to get it installed. Even if they "install it themselves" I will have to add some features in the installation routines to help them get it done (more of my time!) and they will end up calling me more than once and spending time on the phone plus asking for written instructions.

                            Now, consider that the simplest app 'development' I've come across was the conversion of a simple A4 database. The cost just to convert that was about $1500. Add the two together and the very simplest app will cost $3000.

                            Yes, I could build an app for myself much, much cheaper because I know how to use A5 and wouldn't have to automate everything. However, any app I build for someone other than me does not require the user to know anything about A5 - temporary help is far to common and most companies won't hire them a week or two early so they can learn A5. Besides, if someone gets sick or is in an accident, it's very hard to hire someone in advance.

                            This 'automate everything' policy also applied to apps that were used only inside the company I used to work for - it was difficult to get other engineers to learn any database and absolutely impossible to get management or the sales people to learn.

                            What about the $5000 unlimited runtime? Again, I'd like to know if this is a real price. Even if it is, any company big enough to need that many runtimes will probably be building a sizeable application - i.e., $$$$$$. The $5000 would probably still be less than the additional cost to build the same quality application in a different database.

                            I'll stick with A5 and sell it on OVERALL cost.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              RE: The Cost of RT?

                              That sounds real good but it's not reality for most new users and many small busineses who use a5. As I said before, most developers can spread the cost over several apps but the non developers can't. It's crunch time for them.

                              Does Alpha want to cater only to the developers? Not if their strategy for the bulk of v5 is correct. If people won't pay the price, then what? Even with the current pricing, there will be a bunch of sales, mostly single user; 3-user RT, 3-pack and some 5-pack. I doubt there will be many 10-user sales cause the price will be $1848 for a new user and $1798 for an existing user. Maybe they'll pay it. Compared to Access and Filemaker, it's probably on par. You're not going to get very many of those users to come to Alpha if the price is comparable, even with the features of v5 any more than we would want to considering the time it'll take to learn a new package.

                              Perhaps I'm wrong and I sincerely hope I am. Am I jumping ship. ABSOLUTELY NOT! My order with Alpha still stands!! I'm eagerly awaiting my copy of V5!!!

                              kenn

                              kenn
                              TYVM :) kenn

                              Knowing what you can achieve will not become reality until you imagine and explore.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                RE: The Cost of RT?

                                Tom,

                                Part of the idea of the runtime is that you have an unlimited number of copies. So if you develop an app in the 3 user version, you can sell 10 or 20 copies of that to small offices. If someone has a ten user office, you can likely justify buying the upgrade and can now sell a 3 user and a ten user version of your app.

                                The marketing idea is to build a bread and butter app that you can sell a number of copies of to pay the bills. Many Alpha developers tend to emphasize work on single customer applications. Can we be a little more imaginative?

                                There are many products and needs out there we should be able to beat with Alpha.

                                Dave

                                Comment

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