All memo fields disappearing from all databases

[Rose Edwards]

There are a number of Alpha 5 databases used where I work. All had been in use before I got here in December, 2001, and had worked well for the people before me. Sometime in early 2002, entering data into one memo field in the main computer-tracking database stopped working for my boss. She could enter information with the little pencil icon, but when she tried to save it, the information was lost. I've read what I can about the difficulties that some folks have had with memo fields on this forum, and gather that it is likely caused by corrupted pointers. Unfortunately, it appears that this behavior is now happening in *every* memo field in *every* database that we have here - even brand new ones that I create to test things. Is this the kind of behavior that people are used to seeing when memo fields go bad?

I've been trying to use Melvin's FixMemo script, but the person who designed the main database didn't know that it is good to have a primary key field, so I have been working up similar code that used recno() to write the entire contents of the table to files, then reads them back in. It seems a little extreme to have to do this, but I am not sure what else to do. I have tried recovering a copy from a previous backup, but that didn't work. Hmm. Since it seems to be happening to all databases, perhaps it is a problem with my installation of Alpha 5? (v4.5, build 266, on Windows 2000, with 1-gig processors, 192MB RAM, plenty of horsepower). Does anyone think it likely that reinstalling Alpha might help me?

Thanks,

Greg

[Peter.Greulich]

RE: All memo fields disappearing from all database

Usually problems occur w. memo fileds when the fpt file has been remoced from the dbf file and one or the other accessed some how. Others have reported problems under certain conditions such as intensive data entry. If even newly created memos won't work definitely reinstall Alpha. Obviously something is wrong with your system. Memo fields are very reliable in my experience and that of many others. Remember, Alpha uses memo fields internally to to store your forms, scripts, etc.

[Peter.Greulich]

RE: All memo fields disappearing from all database

remoced = removed

[back4more]

RE: All memo fields disappearing from all database

"Memo fields are very reliable in my experience and that of many others. Remember, Alpha uses memo fields internally to to store your forms, scripts, etc."

I've never had a problem with memo fields in a single user environment and find that there is almost no way to duplicate there flexibility in many data applications. They are a very neccessary part of a useable application.

I've found, however, that they are not reliable in a multi-user environment. They will work fine unless there are multiple people that are trying to access the same memo field at the same time or one user right after another. This happens on a peer to peer network and we have never lost any normal data in standard fields.

This has been extremely frustrating because often times by the time you realize that the memo field has gone south it is too late to use your backup as they too are corrupted. This has to be a record locking or tracking problem in Alpha itself.

This brings up two questions:
1. Is this going to be corrected in the new release?
2. Would a client server network be reliable instead of peer to peer?

[Tom Cone Jr]

RE: All memo fields disappearing from all database

Cannot answer your questions. However, others have recommended the following to improve stability:

1) data entry should be modal. Should start from only one place, and the data entry process should end from only one place. Many use a dialog form, with only one way out to achieve this. Others hide the calling form, while data entry is occurring in a called form.

2) button scripts should disable themselves so that inadvertant double clicks don't run them twice without the user being aware of it.

3) Memo data related to a particular record should be stored in a separate table, linked one to one, using a simple key field.

4) When a new record is being entered, instead of permitting the user to begin the process and walk away (to answer phone, get coffee, put out fire) before saving it, the new record is saved immediately, and then reopened in edit mode. This can be transparent to the user. If your table has a linked memo field table, enter and flush to disk new records in both tables, then have the script reopen the new record in edit mode.

5) Once an edit is begun, a flag can be raised in the edited record to prevent other users from beginning an edit session on the same record until the flag is lowered. Typically this is done by setting a logical field true when the edit begins, and then setting it false when the user saves or cancels the current edits. The 'edit record' script can be easily modified to check the value of this logical field before permitting new edits to begin.

-- tom

[Denny Johnson]

RE: All memo fields disappearing from all database

Greg, Sorry I cannot remember the exact discussion from about a year ago when I asked a similar question. At that time, several others also had this problem in a single-user environment, and noted that it was a known problem. We lost considerable data stored in memo fields, even though only 1 person input information at a time. My only sure solution (not the one I wanted) was NOT to use memo fields. Probably if you search the archives, you can still find those long discussions. Best of luck, Denny

[back4more]

RE: All memo fields disappearing from all database

I had to take the same solution as you, Denny.

I've lost to much data with no way to recover. Like I say, by the time the problem becomes apparant it is too late to recover. The FPT file baloons into the Gig size if you try to reindex or pack the file. I back up daily to all different computers on the network, one of which is off site. But even going back a few versions I found they were all corrupted. Yet all the programming in xbasic can't match the flexibility of a memo field.

I see in the doc files of features that are to be added in version five that there are enhancments to the memo fields but if they can't get the same reliability that comes with standard database files it's of no real use.

The problem has to be in the Alpha's program code and its relation to the network. I sure hope that this will be corrected in the next version. I have tried a few of Toms suggestions above and it may have helped some but I just lost 3 years worth of Invoice descriptions which is just a real disaster. It's enough to make you want to throw in the towel and continue your search for an off the shelf solution.

I just haven't been able to find one that matches a custom homebrew...

Go figure huh??

Dan

[Peter.Greulich]

RE: All memo fields disappearing from all database

I rotate backups weekly for a 5-week/month set, plus random backups, plus backups regularly to CD-ROM. That way you will never loose 3-years worth of data.

[Denny Johnson]

RE: All memo fields disappearing from all database

Greg, We also backup periodically to CD Rom, but still never use memo fields anymore. Denny

[Phil Rolf]

RE: All memo fields disappearing from all database

I must be one of the fortunate ones. I have used Memo fields for YEARS. Both A4 & A5 with NO PROBLEMS. In fact, some of you would squirm if you saw how many tables have memo fields.

Our A5 is on a network with 5 users and never have had a conflict between users. I do not do anything fancy with them. Just define them in the structure and place them on the form. The only thing that I try to do on a daily basis is to compact the DB first thing every morning. But that is usually to try and eliminate any indexing problems.

My 2 cents worth...

[Peter.Greulich]

RE: All memo fields disappearing from all database

At the Alpha conference that just ended an hour ago, Peter Wayne and others spoke of how they never have problems with memo fields ever. Peter Wayne (who depends on memos to run his medical practice - 40,000+ patient memo records) observes a few rules including the following:

� Keep memos in a separate table - can be linked in a set.
� Create memo records using xbasic - then allow the user to only change the xbasic created record.
� Keep indexes at a minimum - index names no longer than 10-characters

[back4more]

RE: All memo fields disappearing from all database

OK your right, I need to rethink my backups to allow for more copies to be around so that when the file goes south I can go back days, weeks, or months to look for a good copy.

A few thoughts,

1. I enter things into the computer so that I can throw out the notes and various papers that take over an office. Once in I want to know that it is safe. Losing any amount of data leaves me open to something being forgotten. Maybe packing the database daily would allow one to see if it went south that day and if it was ok then you could back up and throw out that days paperwork...

2. If the memo fields are 100% reliable why is it that we have work arounds to try and make them more reliable???

3. I was going to ask Steve Workings and also Dr Wayne if they've ever had problems. If not, and this was a question I posed earlier in this topic, does it have something to do with the type of network? Are they using all of Tom Cone's suggestions above?? I'm almost at a point where I think I can replicate the error. If I can, would that help to identify the problem??

4. Finally Tom had some suggestions back a few messages which he said had helped increase reliability. Could you post some code to show how item 4 & 5 work.

Dan

[Denny Johnson]

RE: All memo fields disappearing from all database

Hi Phil, Thanks for the 2 cents...We continue to use Alpha & expect to continue to do so, partly because of its many features and comparative ease of use. For what it is worth, we also used Alpha for YEARS without a memo field problem, but when the problem struck, it was devastating to us about a year ago because we had never heard about it until ours came along. Unfortunately, the problem had already begun in a small fashion, affecting our rotated backups on the hard drives, only becoming apparent when the file sizes began to grow exponentially. Now we backup to CD-Rom regularly also - probably a must if one uses memo fields. Glad to hear you have had no problems with the memo field to date - may the force be with you! Denny

[Peter.Greulich]

RE: All memo fields disappearing from all database

2. If the memo fields are 100% reliable why is it that we have work arounds to try and make them more reliable???

I don't think most users would say memos are 100% reliable. But, many of us have not had any problems. I suggest that you observe the precautions advocated by Tom Cone, Peter Wayne & others. You should then be able to use memo fields w/o any problems.

[Greg Fong]

RE: All memo fields disappearing from all database

ARRRGGG, the memo thing just happened to me! My client is hopping mad and has lost a lot of confidence. I appears that a lot of memos are mis-matched or are simply not there. I liked the ability to make fields grow in a report and notes allowed that. Is there a way to make character fields do that in reports? I feel that I have no alternative but to use big wide character fields what conversion problems should I be expecting?