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Say No to a Client?

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    Say No to a Client?



    I was reading a thread earlier this morning where I asked myself why in the world are you doing this. And the answer was one we�ve all seen numerous times on this discussion board.

    �The client wants to do it this way�.

    That scenario raises an issue that is familiar to anyone who develops custom databases. When do you listen to the client and when do you put your foot down and say that will destroy the integrity of the application?

    After all, you were hired to design a professional application that works efficiently and meets the needs and goals of the company that purchased your services, so you have an obligation to keep your client happy. On the other hand, you don�t want the very same client complaining vociferously down the road when there are problems as the system begins to crumble because you complied with his or her wishes against your better judgment.

    Let me start this thread by giving three examples where you want to do it your way, but the client wants something else. In all three cases, even though I wouldn�t necessarily agree with the choice, I think it would be perfectly reasonable to do what the client wants.

    [1] Main Menu

    You design a professional looking Main Menu that will guide the user to the various components of the application you worked so hard to develop. However, the client wants his/her users to open A5 and go directly to the data entry form where the employees will spend the bulk of their time.

    [2] Tabbed Form versus a Full Page Form

    You design a tabbed form that breaks down the various data entry requirements into neat and manageable categories. However, the Client wants his/her employees to see every field in the set on one large form.

    [3] What happens when you click on this button?

    You design a button that will print the current invoice, or at least gives the user an opportunity to print a range of invoices for one client by date or invoice number. However, when the aforementioned button is clicked, the client wants to print EVERY invoice for that customer.

    I only posted three scenarios but we could of course come up with tons of examples where you want to do �A� but the client wants to do �B� and it�s OK. Why? Because we�re talking about personal preferences as opposed to a design strategy that destroys data integrity.

    But when the client insists upon a strategy that inflicts serious damage to the relationships between various tables you worked so hard to establish, I think you have a professional obligation to say �No�. What do you think?

    Robert T

    #2
    RE: Say No to a Client?

    Hi Robert,

    I can see well in advance that this is going to be a very interesting thread to keep an eye on. You included scenarios specific to the data base application itself. What you did not include are some general, overall reasons why one would say yes/no to a client.

    A very simple and basic reason for some to say yes to a client even if we believe things should be done differently ... some of us do NOT have the luxury to say no due to financial restraints. Although I always entertain new ways of losing a couple of pounds, I personally prefer to eat.

    I seem to be dealing with a lot of AlphaFour users, most of which are using very old versions of the DOS. A common thread I have found with most of these users is ... why should I change to AlphaFive when what I have is working fine and I have used it for 10+ years that I can do the work in my sleep without even paying attention to the screen.

    What is wrong with us giving that client the 'gui' that they are used to seeing and using for so many years? One of the major issues with the DOS is the keystroke trapping. I am still trying to make this work easily :)

    Many of the designs I have seen in the AlphaFour older versions have been absolutely horrible. One HUGE table with millions of fields. In some cases I have been able to redesign the table/set structure without spending a lot of time to accomplish my end results. In most cases these clients are not willing to 'pay' for the time it will take to develop an improved database, they just want what they already have.

    I believe that time and money play major roles in the deciding factor of when to say no and when to say yes ... in addition to the scenarios' that you have mentioned.

    Besides, who doesn't love a good challenge every now and then :)

    Cheryl
    Cheryl
    #1 Designs By Pagecrazy
    http://pagecrazy.com/

    Comment


      #3
      RE: Say No to a Client?

      One more thought. There are also many that are 'employees' and not self employed developers/consultants. They have to do what the boss tells them to do whether they like it or not and whether or not it is the best way to do it ... or risk becoming unemployed.
      Cheryl
      #1 Designs By Pagecrazy
      http://pagecrazy.com/

      Comment


        #4
        RE: Say No to a Client?

        Hello Cheryl:

        Even if you're an employee you can say something to the effect that "I will follow your instructions, but I don't think this will work and I recommend that we utilize a better alternative".

        If you're dealing with a client who insists upon doing something that runs counter to an efficient, professional design, you have some choices. You can of course say no and walk away from the contract.

        But if you absolutely need the money and refuse to walk away, that might cause problems down the road. One form of possible protecton is utilizing the equivalent of a legal disclaimer. I think you should put something in writing such as, I was hired as a professional developer and I recommend we do ........................ If you insist upon doing ��, I will not be liable for any problems that may occur as a result of this design change.

        Robert T

        Comment


          #5
          RE: Say No to a Client?

          I never have a problem with a client changing one of my applications...I merely say, "Don't worry, I'll get it right if it takes every nickle you've got."

          Comment


            #6
            RE: Say No to a Client?

            As an employee, recommending a better alternative normally is not the issue, it is convincing the employer that it is a better alternative. Look at poor Wanda being forced to use Access :)

            We all have the option to walk away from a project, whether it be as an employee or as an independent. For some that option is not the lesser of all evils. A5 is an extremely powerful tool and we can do just about anything with it. As far as running coutner to an efficient, professional design ... how do you convince somebody that has been using that design for 10 years without error that it is not efficient or professional?

            With the current project I am working on, it is not a matter of a design change. The client wants me to use the exact design that they have been using for 10 years. The only difference is that they have been using it in a DOS environment and not Windows. Although the original design is not the best, it does work without error in the DOS environment.

            My client really does not care what is happening behind the scenes and I am free to change the table/set/db structure any way that I see fit as long as he continues to see what he has always seen.

            I have already added a separate table for automobile information and successfully moved his current records to that table without error. Unfortunately I have been unable to successfully move the parts records to a separate table so I am being forced to attempt to create forms/reports that use the setup he has.

            Cheryl
            #1 Designs By Pagecrazy
            http://pagecrazy.com/

            Comment


              #7
              RE: Say No to a Client?

              Cheryl, Robert,

              Of course you can say no to a client. Question is whether it would be wise.

              Cheryl, you say "I prefer to eat".
              But what when you agree with the client to do something that will inflict serious damage later, and the client then tells the judge you should have known better and holds you responsable for the damage.
              Howmany days you think you won't be eating at all then?

              What is important, is what is agreed upon between customer and developer. That is why contracts excist.

              In case it is not covered by the customer, and a conflict appears about to do something or not, where you as a developer think you should not and the customer thinks you should, there is an easy solution.

              You write the customer a letter stating your and his opinion about the case. You tell him what in your mind the consequences could be if he would persist on it. Tell him you strongly advise him not to do it. Give the client (this is important!) at least one alternative that gets as close as possible to his wishes.
              Enclose a response form for your customer to fill in, sign and return.
              If he still wants you to do the wrong thing, you can now safely do so. Oh, be assured that you are talking with the right person..... has he procuration rights ?

              It is very important that you cover your tracks with a sound agreement upfront. Take some time to consult a specialized lawyer for that. Costs money now, can save tons of money in the future.

              Kind regards,

              Marcel

              Comment


                #8
                RE: Say No to a Client?

                In that case I write an official memo to my boss with my concerns about his proposal and archive it. And when he keeps to his proposal I would build it. And if it went wrong I have alway a copy of it and paste it on his forehead.

                Nice feeling....

                Marcel
                Marcel

                I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.
                ---- Confusius ----

                Comment


                  #9
                  RE: Say No to a Client?

                  [how do you convince somebody that has been using that design for 10 years without error that it is not efficient or professional? ]

                  If everything is working so well, why is he/she changing? I suspect that he/she knows there is a better alternative. It's your job to show him/her there is a better methodology.

                  When you move from the world of DOS to Windows, it opens up a vast array of opportunities to utilize a much richer environment that includes a set of features one could never dream of while working with DOS.

                  Robert T

                  Comment


                    #10
                    RE: Say No to a Client?

                    """But what when you agree with the client to do something that will inflict serious damage later"""

                    I am not speaking of something that will inflict serious damage later. None of my clients requests do this.
                    Cheryl
                    #1 Designs By Pagecrazy
                    http://pagecrazy.com/

                    Comment


                      #11
                      RE: Say No to a Client?

                      """If everything is working so well, why is he/she changing?"""

                      He is changing because I convinced him that DOS is going by the wayside ... and his current pc is on its last leg. The version of his A4 will NOT run in an XP environment. So he can upgrade to V8 of A4 which will work in XP, or switch to A5.

                      I can give him his current application in A4V8 with far less work than converting his data to A5V5. He does not want nor need additional features beyond what he has. He does however want to only upgrade once and have it last him the next 10 years. I explained that the Windows version will have a far longer shelf life than the DOS version. Of course I could not give him a timeframe on either.
                      Cheryl
                      #1 Designs By Pagecrazy
                      http://pagecrazy.com/

                      Comment


                        #12
                        RE: Say No to a Client?

                        I was/am lucky.

                        I worked on a national product and when asked to change something by a customer, we explained the extra cost and the future cost for such a change. We sold our product for 1500 and if you wanted to change the original design, we would add 3 times that amount to cover costs and every time you ran an update you paid the original price again. Problem solved.

                        I am currently building my own app and will follow a similar path. I write about what I know inside and out, so the program flow is correct and changes would be less than desired. Everything is a compromise or a lot of work. I have a lot of work done and a lot to go.

                        I will walk before I compromise my future in programming. I rather be hungry for a day now than a year later!

                        Dave
                        Dave Mason
                        [email protected]
                        Skype is dave.mason46

                        Comment


                          #13
                          RE: Say No to a Client?

                          Cheryl,

                          I agree w. everything you say, except:

                          I explained that the Windows version will have a far longer shelf life than the DOS version.

                          Are you sure?
                          :)
                          -Peter
                          Peter
                          AlphaBase Solutions, LLC

                          [email protected]
                          https://www.alphabasesolutions.com


                          Comment


                            #14
                            RE: Say No to a Client?

                            LMAO, I only say this because DOS programs are no longer being supported in a windows environment. Since the majority of people are running windows systems, they are better off using windows programs. Personally I do not prefer the Bill Gates O/S.

                            On another note, I feel like my comments may have been misunderstood based on some of the replies. I am not talking about accepting a project that will compromise my integrity, future, morales, values, ethics, etc just to avoid going hungry.

                            I simply meant that if a client's request is different than the way I would normally work, that in and of itself should not be a reason to say no. My keystroke example is just one of many (a few mentioned in the original post). Some people prefer keystroke commands, some people prefer using their mouse. Who am I to tell the client that he must use a mouse operation simply because it will be easier for me to create.

                            I have walked away from many projects in my lifetime and caused myself to 'go hungry' as a result, and I will continue to do that whenever I feel I would be hurting myself, the client, or anybody else by not walking away.

                            I have seen multiple applications setup with a single table. This has never been my preferred method but it can and does work in some situations. So who am I to say 'no' you must have multiple tables if you want me to do the work. If I am not hungry and I have alternate project options, then perhaps I would walk away from the project without hesitation. However, if I do not have anything lined up and need to put food on the table, I will take the project even if it is not the way I may have designed it originally.
                            Cheryl
                            #1 Designs By Pagecrazy
                            http://pagecrazy.com/

                            Comment


                              #15
                              RE: Say No to a Client?

                              First:
                              I didn't say it was you talking about things causing serious damage. It was in Robert's opening message:

                              "But when the client insists upon a strategy that inflicts serious damage to the relationships between various tables you worked so hard to establish"

                              Secondly:
                              You are missing the advice here. Pitty.

                              Greetings,

                              Marcel

                              Comment

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