Pace Manuals and Alpha Community

[Mike Konoff]

RE: Pace Manuals and Alpha Community

Hey Steve:

No, I have not seen that and I will check it out.

Thanks,
Mike

[rtbtat]

RE: Pace Manuals and Alpha Community

Marcel:

You wrote:
[....you would get a more basic book that goes not deep enough into the details. We would not need such a book. Once you have read it, you'll no longer need it...]

I disagree with your comments. I've been teaching Alpha Five courses for a long time and there is one constant that always stands out. Many, if not most people, know how to create a table, build field rules, run a query, and/or design a report, but they rarely understand database theory. Of course you can utilize a manual to enhance your individual skills in the areas mentioned above, however, if you don't understand the concepts/theory underlying an application, your database will not perform efficiently and/or it will usually fail to meet it's desired goals.

The majority of people don�t understand the theory, but even more significantly, they don�t understand why an understanding of the theory is so critical. You see this every day on the discussion board where people ask questions that make no sense at all from a design point of view. I, and other consultants immediately know if they continue down that path, their database will turn into an inefficient, unnecessarily complicated failure. They probably learned how to do many individual tasks through Alpha's incredible genies, but they have no clue as to how one designs an application that adheres to the rules of a relational database model.

I also see this happen with small business owners who invite you into their office for a demonstration of Alpha Five. They are so impressed by A5 and what the average user can do on his/her own through genies, fabulous field rules, the power of incredible action scripting, and the easy to use report builder, they walk away thinking they don't need a consultant. Why pay someone to design a database when you can use Alpha Five to do it yourself? Those small business owners are also headed down the path to certain failure because they too fail to grasp the importance of the underlying theory.

I think one can write a third party book that explains the importance of understanding database theory/design and then build an application from the ground up illustrating how to apply those skills to building an application that adheres to the rules of the relational model. Will such a book cover every aspect of Alpha Five? Of course not, as Steve Workings pointed out, that would be a next to impossible task. You would only cover those A5 skills needed in each phase of the project. That means the book would only touch upon portions of what is actually covered in the manual.

Does that mean it would be an incomplete, simple book that one quickly breezes through and then puts it aside forever? I don�t think so. I believe such a book would be an extremely valuable addition to the Alpha Community that many users can refer to as often as needed. Don't be deceived into thinking this is a simple little project that one can read in two hours and then throw it away.

Robert T

[russ Boehle]

RE: Pace Manuals and Alpha Community

There was a fairly good discussin of database normalization in the A4v6 manual. There are also a lot of websites that discuss this such as:

http://www.databasejournal.com/sqletc/article.php/1428511

Maybe, rather than an Alpha specific book on database design, what is needed is a page of links to pages that have relevant referance information.
I also think a page with links to tools that developers use would be useful.

Russ

[mronck]

RE: Pace Manuals and Alpha Community

Hi Robert,

Good discussion.

If you want to buy a new car, you will get a manual for your new Ford, Volkswagen or whatever.
If you can not drive however, it is a little bit silly to ask your cardealer for a "How to drive a car book".
You take your lessons at the driving-school.

I do not disagree with you if you say A5 is often used by inexperienced users (because of the obvious advantages).
I also do not disagree with you if you say that most of the time there is lack of knowledge about basics.

My point was, that a complete standard work on all aspects of A5 would be an impossible task.

I see that you also think that way, so there seems to be no point of discussion left, or it must be that you see a market for a book on database basics related to A5 where I don't. But then again, it is not my risk now, is it ?

Kind regards,

Marcel

[rtbtat]

RE: Pace Manuals and Alpha Community

Marcel and Russell:

I don't think comparing a car manual to a database manual is a good analogy.

As for Russell's comment, I don't disagree with him in principle, but I think a book that illustrates by example, how you can apply datbase theory specifically with Alpha Five, would be far more useful than a series of links.

Robert T

[Joseph Claeys]

RE: Pace Manuals and Alpha Community

I've been using/creating databases for a decade and I'm one of those that understood the principles of database theory but not as applied to A5. For good and bad some things that "work" and might be considered "good design" on other applications aren't necessarily so for A5 (A5 can do them and possibly better but the method is a bit different).

Put me down for an A5 specific book that includes topics related to theory. I'd even preorder the book...

~joe

[Joseph Claeys]

RE: Pace Manuals and Alpha Community

As an reformed 'car-nut' I think that your analogy is misapplied. The typical motorist is an "end-user" so yes most people that have used a completed database application will understand enough to muddle through (the clutch does slip a bit though). However different makes and models (applications) do require specific manuals for the mechanic (designer/programmer).

~joe

[CALocklin]

RE: Pace Manuals and Alpha Community

Russ,

I like your idea of a page of links to relevant information on database design. Maybe the Code Archive or the FAQs area would be a good place for this? Or, maybe once v6 is out, it would be easier to create a lookup of links categories.

The problem with the FAQs area is that individuals would have to submit links for someone else to post. However, the good part about the FAQs area is that individuals would have to submit links for someone else to post. In other words, it would mean more work for someone but it would also be better organized.

On the other hand, just to highlight the concerns about the value of this, there is a TIPS section and nobody has submitted a new tip in well over a year. Also, there is an AlphaBay that nobody seems to look at. And, I have posted on my own website numerous addons and references that I developed to make the job of database development easier and I could just about count all the people who have purchased these 'really expensive' (like Free to $19 in most cases) addons in my fingers. (I also don't recall more than one person ever sending me a comment on any of the free stuff so I assume nobody has found it useful.) Yes, I could give them all away for free but this doesn't seem reasonable for addons that often take many dozens of hours to build and, in some cases, can save users multiple hours the first time they use the addon.

My impression of all this is that most Alpha users really enjoy building it themselves because of the feeling of accomplishment and what they learn in the process.

So my question is, "If there is a 'links' page created, will people actually submit links?" Possibly. But if there isn't some way to get feedback on the value of the link and if people don't actually provide feedback, then it will quickly become another stagnant page. Even negative comments would at least mean that the topic was interesting and people were reading it.

Regarding "How to build a database":

I just talked to Bill Warner and he commented that asking how to build a database was much like asking "How do I build a machine?" There are so many possibilities and so many variations/options that no single book could cover them all. Another question is "Are we designing a database or are we designing an application?" There are some standards for building a database (i.e., normalization) but the design of an application is much more subjective and one person's philosophy on application design might be much different than someone else's.

Cal Locklin
www.aimsdc.net

[mronck]

RE: Pace Manuals and Alpha Community

Cal,

As always I read your comments with great intrest as you always strike me as a true professional.

I guess what neither of us dare to say is, that although everyone can use A5 to create his own application and be proud about it, not everyone IS a professional.
Being a pro is not about just reading a book.

This is a craft, people !

It is mastered only if:
* one is sufficiently talented
* one has the proper basic eduaction
* one has gained the experience in the field

I do not say no outsider can become a true professional.
I believe it can be done, but it is not something that happens overnight reading the right book, although commercial people would like to make us believe so.

Of course you can bake your own bread, but even the fact that your whole family says it tastes good, chances are great they would prefer the bread of the pro baker.
Can one become a baker ? Yes, probably, if he is willing to learn and invest the time the pro baker did.

Cal, there are many subjects that relate to the work of an independend programming professional.
Other issues are f.i. of juridical nature.
I have proposed more then once we also have a forum about the business side of it. What is a good license agreement?
How to protect trademarks etc. etc.
It is difficult. Should Alpha host all possible problems for us Alpha users ? Maybe not.

Greetings,

Marcel

[CALocklin]

RE: Pace Manuals and Alpha Community

Pardon my rambling but Bill and I talked for over an hour about what goes into database/application design and here's a summary of our thoughts....

We basically came to the conclusion that one aspect is the design of the tables and this is relatively simple and some important basics can be learned by reading about the first 3 levels of database normalization. The other aspect is the development of the application itself and this is much more complicated and, more importantly, much more subjective.

Here's where the discussion about "building a machine" came into play. In fact, we even narrowed it down to "let's build a car" just to make it easier to discuss. This could be analagous to saying, "Let's build a database to handle a POS business."

Before you can build a car, you need to understand what the car needs to do; i.e, specifications - go at least 70 MPH on level ground, accelerate at a maximum of 0.25 g's in first gear, carry up to 4 passengers, sustain a 30 MPH frontal crash without killing any passengers, provide a comfortable ride, steer, use wheels (vs. an air cushion), protect occupants from the wind and rain, etc., etc., etc.

With a database application, you need to get the same information from you customer - even if that is yourself. You need to know what output you want from the database. This includes printed materials as well as functionality such as lookups, views of data, warnings of particular situations, etc.

The next thing you need to know to build the car is what materials are available. In other words, you can use things like steel, copper, aluminum, plastic, cloth, rubber, wood, glass, grease, oil, hydrogen, gasoline, propane, and finished components such as solar cells, electronic components, tires, etc. This is analogous to all the features in A5 - forms, buttons, text objects, conditional objects, tabbed objects, functions, xdialog boxes, etc., etc.

However, now that I've dumped a pile of these components on you, you still don't have a car. Now you have to know what you can do with these components so you can build the car you want; i.e., what are the capabilities of the steel, glass, electronic components, etc. and how can they be molded into the products that we need to build our car. Engineers go to college to learn this. Obviously each car model is different and, once you get away from the 'standard' cars, you can even find 3-wheel cars, plastic cars, steel cars, aluminum cars, stainless steel cars, cars that float in water, cars with doors in the front, cars that fly, etc., etc. Therefore, it's important to know what each component can do so you can 'mold' it as necessary to meet your specific needs. You probably don't want to make your wheels out of glass - although you might if this car is just for show or as an "object d'art." For a database application, the "components" are the features mentioned at the end of the previous paragraph. Before you can produce anything with them, you have to learn what can be done with them. This requires some study.

Now, there's the rub - you have to learn what can be done with each component so you can decide how you want to use it. Just like "build a car" can result in many different final designs because the desired result can be very subjective, "build a database application" is also very subjective so you first have to know how the individual components can be used. Then it's up to you to determine how you want to use them. This is the problem with "how to build a database" - this would be like someone telling you how to build a 2004 Honda Civic LX but this is not the same as building the Italian Izzeta (see one about 2/3 of the way down on this page) Similarly, someone could tell you how to build the AlphaSports application but this is completely different than my own Trak-It SP application - different purpose, different features, different methods.

Learning how each of the components can be used isn't terribly difficult but it is time-consuming. (That's part of what professional developers are charging for - the time they spent learning.) All the info is there in the Help files so all you have to do is read the [boring] stuff. I can honestly tell you that I've read every word of the Xbasic help file for version 5 and all of "Learning Xdialog", the "User Guide", and "What's new in V5". I also refer back to them on a frequent basis. As for the other 'books', I've read most of the chapters but not all. Yes, some of it was very boring and, no, I didn't memorize everything. However, I did get a good idea of what the capabilities were and now it's just a matter of finding the specific function when I need it.

Similarly, I've already started learning about the functions available for the internet capabilities in v6. Yes, I could just use the genies but that will limit my results.

So, my conclusion is that the only way to learn to create a database is to (a) learn what tools are available, (b) learn what each of those tools can do (i.e., read the manuals), (c) use my imagination, and (d) start working/experimenting with them.

Cal Locklin
www.aimsdc.net

[CALocklin]

RE: Pace Manuals and Alpha Community

Marcel,

I agree. I would only add one thing:

It is mastered only if:
* one has sufficient patience!

I have a degree in Mechanical Engineering and I worked in the auto industry for over 30 years. It's my opinion that database development takes at least as much patience to learn and far more patience to apply than engineering ever will.

[Dr Alok Modi MD]

RE: Pace Manuals and Alpha Community

Hi every body
I initiated this thread, so I guess after reading such voracious remarks and sometimes (venomous!!, read Robert!!) I guess I , albeit a nobody and a novice do have a right to say something here.

1. First of all the idea behind this thread was to thank Valerie for a phenomenal task well done.

2. No database stuff that I know of can beat alpha for many reasons. One of the chief is this alpha forum , where my friends like Marcel, Bill, Cal, Steve, Martin , Wanda who are regulars and veterans take the time and energy to not only reply but go out of the way to modify the corruted database and reload it. Both Steve and Cal have helped me earlier and I am grateful.

3. I think this thread has gone way beyond this. Let me in my smallness say one thing Robert, with due respect to you, as my experience as an intensivist. I have 10 years behind me as a senior consultant in leading hospitals here as an ICU specialist. Today also I respect whatever opinion I get from a fresh medical student who at times picks up rare patient diagnoses, which we overlook, not beacuse we are incompetent, but because medical science is vast and I am not God.(You will be surprised to know that heparin which is a life saving drug in coronary artery disease and stroke was discovered by a medical student as are some other wonders of modern medicine). And as a true professional we need to respect our juniors, encourage them and not kill their enthusiasm with our vast knowledge by making them seem inferior. I guess others will agree with me on this and this applies to any database program learning also. How can you say Robert that only you are the best or that you were born with database in a silver platter. I am enjoying every moment of working with alpha and I hardly get time from my busy practice otherwise I would devote more time. Novices like us would be very grateful if you could give us a lending hand with your vast capabilities and experience, Robert instead of discouraging us.

4. As far as another manual is concerened all I said was that not necessarily one person has to write this manual, but if we all as we are over on this forum, upload some sample databses of our own, showing how we build them up, like Jim has done, it would really guide new users practically. What I as a new user feel the need today after such wonderful help section, manuals and books is practical guidance,the art of applying Xbasic and action sripts, design a database, etc, etc, etc, which obviously will take its own time, and I am patient.I will be happy to upload my radiology one, though its primitive for whatever worth it may be.

5. Thanks Marcel and Cal, you guys are really professional.

( I don't know how much thrashing I am in for after this!!!!)

Dr Alok Modi MD

[Edward Larrabee]

RE: Pace Manuals and Alpha Community

If anyone wants to contribute content to the Alpha Five documentation, it will be welcome. My part will be to make sure that it is edited, indexed, and appropriately hyperlinked.

[mronck]

RE: Pace Manuals and Alpha Community

Hmm. Very right so.

You sort of mentioned it, and of course you can not include every aspect in a forum message, but I would like to enwiden your speach as follows:

My friend bought himself a wonderfull car (to stay in the car-business). He was really proud of it. I believe it was a Fiat with a maserati motor. Something special. So he came on driving to my home to demonstrate the monstrum.
And indeed, it was something special, though at first sight already something about it felt not right, although I could lay my finger on it yet. Wonderfull car, much room inside, and what motorpower! Unbelievable.
BUT, what was also unbelievable was, that when he got home, he could not get the car into the garage, because it simple was to wide to fit between the two houses that were in front of his garage!
So, he had to sell it again.....

What I am saying here is, that before even constructing the application, it also has to be designed in a way that fits to the organisation. Fit into the working-processes that are common in that organisation.
So you really need to have a good and complete perspective on the targets but also on the organisation and it's processes.

That takes extra skills. If you are independent you also need to analyse the situation where you need to implement your solution.

As Cal already pointed out, the tasks to fulfill are to various to cover with a book. I am not saying it can't help, I am just saying it won't give a total solution.
For that, you have to learn the craft.

As for that, I am following my friend Alok.
He is eager to learn, is quite bright and educated.
People like him will always find help on this forum in order to get them going.

Greetings,

Marcel

[russ Boehle]

RE: Pace Manuals and Alpha Community

I used to own an Isetta, they were made by BMW. Scary going 80 mph in one of those on the NJ Turnpike.

Russ