A5 EXE File

[Joe Cook]

Can A5 create exe files?

[Tom Cone Jr]

RE: A5 EXE File

No.

[Al Buchholz]

RE: A5 EXE File

Joe

Alpha uses a runtime copy that is the development version with the change features unenabled. That allows an application to be delivered to an end user to execute, but not develop with.

[Joseph Claeys]

RE: A5 EXE File

This comes up a lot and I think that often sematics gets in the way of a true understanding of A5's distribution format. First of all exe's exist on platforms that do not compile... Two examples are Liberty Basic and Rapid-Q. Both use a runtime but generate a "clickable" exe. It's a common metaphor and people like it because it's common.

A5 has essentially the exact same thing (don't hold me to the technical nuances). Instead of an exe - you create a shortcut that is linked to a startup file that opens up the application (again my simple understanding). From the end users point of view there is really no difference between the A5 method and one that uses an exe file (with a runtime). There are several other issues related to the A5 method that are good and bad (much like everything in life) but for me this was a BIG question having been a Filemaker convert (and Access to a lesser extent). The FM method creates this big freakin Kiosk that does not behave like a windows application. If that is your hangup then rest assured A5 isn't FM in that respect. If your issue is more technical (compiled etc) then everything in this post is rubbish.

~joe

[Joseph Claeys]

RE: A5 EXE File

Incidentally the explanation of the runtime can also get convoluted. My understanding (and someone correct me if I'm wrong) is that you can distribute the thing as often as you want... The "flavors" of runtime has to do with simultaneous users.

Oh and one other thing that I (as a newbie) have found is that the installer on the A5 is less than optimal (no offense). Someone here mentioed the Astrum Installer and I downloaded the free trial and yes it is GREAT. I ended up purchasing it.

So to partially address your initial question - you develop the app, you package it with the runtime, you create an Installer. From the end users point of view they double click the installer, it loads the runtime and app, creates a shortcut on the desktop (or wherever), they double click on the icon(shortcut) and up comes a windows application. So again I fail to see the .exe issue as important from an end-user point of view... Although I understand that there are probably other good reasons for one...

~joe

[Ray]

RE: A5 EXE File

Hi Joseph,

One of the main reasons I want A5 five to compile into an EXE is so no one can open anything in my application not even the development tool that was used to develop the app
can open it and for some reason people hear keep trying to tell me don�t worry about it put all scripts in a aex password your forms and your done, that�s not what I want
I WANT AN EXE so you don�t have to worry about all this and for some reason Alpha wont implement this and that�s y I keep considering learning VB.NET it has a compiler so the whole app is .EXE


Ray

[CALocklin]

RE: A5 EXE File

Ray,

This isn't meant to say that exe files are bad. It's just another take on the situation.

If having an exe file means the data is included within the exe, I'd have a big problem with it but that would also mean big problems with networking so I won't even consider that as a possibility. I'll assume that the whole application was in one exe file and the data is in one other file (a la Access after splitting the original development file).

Most of the applications I've developed require frequent updates/additions. With A5's distribution method, these updates are easy to handle even if a customer only has a dial-up modem because individual files can be sent. I certainly find this much easier to work with than updating an Access app - although I haven't done much Access work in the past 2-3 years so things may have changed. As I recall, the Access apps required finding the original file, editing the app, somehow appending the up-to-date data, then splitting the file again and sending it to the user. Then the user had to install both the front and back end files - in the correct places, of course. This would be great fun with some of the computer illiterates that I've worked with. (Nothing against them - some are smarter people than I am, they just don't know much about computers.) With A5, I can send, for example, the data dictionary files from a table that has a new report and the .al* files with the new network optimize number and the user just installs them on the server - the rest of the updates are handled automatically through the built-in network optimize update routine.

I personally think we would have the best of both worlds if Alpha could come up with a more secure password protection on layouts.

I also believe this is mostly an issue with applications that are put out for general distribution. If a company contracts with me to develop an app, I would give someone there the password(s) to it anyway just in case something happens to me. And, if one of their employees messes it up, I don't mind fixing it - for a price.

Cal Locklin
www.aimsdc.net

[Blake]

RE: A5 EXE File

""This comes up a lot and I think that often sematics gets in the way of a true understanding of A5's distribution format. First of all exe's exist on platforms that do not compile... Two examples are Liberty Basic and Rapid-Q. Both use a runtime but generate a "clickable" exe. It's a common metaphor and people like it because it's common.""

It's also not true.

An ".EXE" is a movable-object executable program. Microsoft and Intel came up with this in contrast to ".COM" files. ".COM" files were not movable (the addresses in the code were absolute, meaning that the programs couldn't run if some other program were using those addresses) and limited to 64K combined data/code space. They were used by CP/M, the (arguably) dominant business PC OS prior to DOS.

There are many other executable file types besides MS's .COM, .BAT and .EXE files. Traditionally, executables in Linux are noted with a bit in the file attributes, with no special extension. (Linux adopted the .EXE extension, but doesn't need it.)

""A5 has essentially the exact same thing (don't hold me to the technical nuances). Instead of an exe - you create a shortcut that is linked to a startup file that opens up the application (again my simple understanding). From the end users point of view there is really no difference between the A5 method and one that uses an exe file (with a runtime""

It should be pointed out that an .EXE doesn't mean much more than having a single-file. It actually doesn't have to mean the code is compiled, protected, or otherwise unhackable. Some essentially interpreted language environments merely wrap up the user's code with their own interpreter.

In other words, if I have an interpreter, and let you write code, I can produce an .EXE that is nothing more than my interpreter with your data tied in.

[.EXE Header]
[My Interpreter]
[Your Code, which is data to my interpreter]

But like "SQL", "relational" and ".NET", you're absolutely right that the important information--the question the personr eally wants answered--is often lost in semantics.

[Joseph Claeys]

RE: A5 EXE File

Thanks for the providing the whole story. Although I'm not sure what part was not true. LB and RQ are both runtimes that have an exe file...

I wonder if all this discussion of an exe would be solved using an exe to startup the runtime instead of a "shortcut". Heck you could do it yourself with Rapid-Q (or any other - it's just that RQ is free) and have the small application simply execute your A5 runtime. Then you have your exe! As Blake noted (and I failed to make clear) it wouldn't be compiled but that is not often the issue. I think that people coming from FM in particular are really just wanting to make sure that they aren't getting a big cartoonish "kiosk" as the distributable file and calling it an exe file is just shorthand for "I want the distributable file to have the 'look and feel' of a windows application".

~joe

[Peter.Greulich]

RE: A5 EXE File

To summarize:

What we would love to get from Alpha (and probably never will*), is a compiler that generates an exe file in binary format - meaning you couldn't read it with a file viewer or otherwise decompile it, along with a set of data file constructs - presumably dbf, etc. Then if you wanted to update the exe: you would go to your source code, make whatever changes and enhancements, compile a new exe and distribute that new exe to your user(s).

Peter

*I imagine the reason we will never get that is because Alpha wasn't designed to be a compiler, so it would probably be a mammoth task to re-engineer A5 to be something it was never originally designed to do.

[CALocklin]

RE: A5 EXE File

I guess I'm missing something because I'm not that familiar with FM but what's the point of an "exe to startup the runtime instead of a shortcut" since you would still want a shortcut to start the exe??

Or, would you just want to put the "exe" on the desktop? If that's the case, how do you tell the "exe" where the program is located? I suppose you could force it into a specific folder but what if you run into a computer like the one I found that had no C: drive - windows was installed in the I: drive! Then you would need a different "exe" for every folder location - but how do you know which folder the next customer will want to put it in?

[DaveM]

RE: A5 EXE File

Joe,

I know of no program that includes all the data or all the code within an exe file.

VB, Clipper and a plethora of other programmming tools compile an exe file. the data is still exposed. The programming may be encoded in an exe or in other files like .dll's, .ovl's, etc, but it is still breakable. Alpha allows you to use and aex file to "hide" your functions and more just like the others.

You can use an exe to start Alpha as I and a few others do, but you do not need one.

I hope this helps
Dave

[Joseph Claeys]

RE: A5 EXE File

My point which I didn't make well is simply this... People know what to do with an exe! They have a lot of preconcieved notions about what it does (from an end user point of view) and those notions are generally correct. Here are a few that I can think of: 1. the file is now distributable without other application (ie you don't need a copy of A5 or FM or Access - lets ignore java and .net for this example). 2. The program has the "look and feel" of a windows application. 3. When faced with a folder of files most people "know" that the .exe will start the application.

That said there are a lot of technical issues related to exe's that quite frankly most end users don't care about (one being whether it is compiled or a runtime). So to summarize my initial and rather weak point - if A5 simply made an exe instead of a "shortcut" it might satisify a number of people that are using the term "exe" as shorthand. So A5 wouldn't be compiled it would just create the exe as a startup (Blake's post summarizes this quite well at the end). My initial worry was that by just saying A5 has no exe the poster would walk away without a clear understanding of A5... I'm not sure I succeeded though...

Incidentally this was addressed to me but I don't recall saying that all code is contained in an exe. Although Realbasic (www.realbasic.com) does have a basic compiler that generates a single exe file. Interesting side note is that William Wu the auther of RapidQ is the lead engineer for the windows version of RB. The company reminds me a lot of A5 in that the CEO/Owner is "in the trenches" and on the listservs answering questions and listening to suggestions. That said I don't know the technical nuances of the single exe file so I'm not disputing whether it can or can't happen, just that it "appears" to happen in the case of RB. If you want to check it out they have a free fully functional download that expires (gee much like A5), although it isn't the developer version which can compile apps for linux and Mac.

~joe

[Joseph Claeys]

RE: A5 EXE File

"" but what's the point of an exe to startup the runtime instead of a shortcut""

I tried to answer it below... No technical reason other than "marketing". That way when someone asks "does A5 generate an exe" then one could simply say "yes". Silly I know...

Although I have toyed with the idea of using an RB application (pick your own language - RQ is free) to start A5 and it appears that Dave is doing just that (Dave if you are willing to discuss why I would be interested). I have no good reason other than using it as a "startup" script of sorts to open another program also...

~joe

[Ray]

RE: A5 EXE File

Hi Peter,

You hit the nail on the head that�s what I am talking about
and it�s a shame they won�t include one.

Ray