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Bill Hannisburg

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    Bill Hannisburg

    Bill, it just dawned on me that I have to provide for/prevent a user from entering a grandchild when there is no child

    like:
    parent (top of form fields)

    ----child1 (embedded browse1)
    --------grandchild1 (embedded browse)

    in the above diagram, if a user enters a parent, and then goes down to enter a grandchild, (without first entering a child,) what might the xbasic look like to be sure there was a child record to link it to - otherwise it would be a record with no valid link to the set
    Cole Custom Programming - Terrell, Texas
    972 524 8714
    [email protected]

    ____________________
    "A young man who is not liberal has no heart, but an old man who is not conservative has no mind." GB Shaw

    #2
    RE: Bill Hannisburg

    Hi Martin,

    I don't know that I'm the expert on this particular issue but I will give it a shot.

    You do not say whether the user is entering data directly into the embedded browse or whether you call up a dialog (xdialog or a table-based form in dialog mode) to get the input.

    If they enter data directly in the form I suppose you could do someting with the can save event. Another way would be to use cansave in field rules for the grandchild and test for
    -whether the set is open, and if so
    -the existence of a parent record (a child in the set you describe).

    But (thinking out loud) what about a form based on a second set (set 2) which has child1 as the parent and child2 as the child in an embedded browse. You could call this form from your first (existing) set and create the parent record (the child in set1)if it does not already exist. Then the user could go ahead and create a child (set2) which would be a properly linked grandchild (child2) in set 1.

    I will be interested in what others have to say. I personally do not permit data entry into a form based on a set like yours. Certainly I have similarly structured sets but I do not allow data entry. They are for display or reports.

    I hope this is a little bit of help. Really, I would start with a concept of how users could enter the data and only then design the structures. I did this for the first time this summer: designed an interface using a yellow pad. Then I wrote the application.

    Bill
    Bill Hanigsberg

    Comment


      #3
      RE: Bill Hannisburg

      Martin,

      A small refinement:

      In set two
      child1 (in set1) is parent linked 1:1 to parent (in set1)
      and 1:N to grandchild1.

      A form based on set2 will only display a record if child1 exists and the design is simple enough to allow data entry directly into a form based on the set.

      You could jump to this form based on a double click in an embedded browse based on Set1.

      Bill
      Bill Hanigsberg

      Comment


        #4
        RE: Bill Hannisburg

        Bill, thanks for the ideas. I also appreciate the yellow pad idea. I like what I read once where the developer said "first let me see all the reports you want, and then I'll desgin a database for you."

        This is the most complicated record I have ever tried to make. And unfortunately the biggest problem I have had is that the user started out years ago by making a "flat" record in Alpha4-DOS. But it didn't work well, or at all in many situations. And I have had a terrible time getting them to learn how to think in what they now call 3-D instead of flat.

        The first iteration of the set looks like this:

        parent
        --child1(1 to many)
        ----gchild-child1(1 to many)
        ----------ggchild-child1(1 to many)
        ------------gggchild-child1(1 to many)
        ------------gggchild-child2(1 to many)
        --child2(1 to many)
        ----gchild-child1(1 to many)
        ----------ggchild-child1(1 to many)
        ------------gggchild-child1(1 to many)
        ------------gggchild-child2(1 to many)

        although I technically got it to work, Alpha was having major little problems, and I decided that if there were problems on a stand-a-lone, it would really have problems on a network - so I added all fields in commom between child1 and child2 and got rid of the entire 2nd string of files, and can make do with this arrangement - much simpler.

        the problems Alpha was having were around where an operator would enter a parent, and then very quickly enter several gchildren, then go to the ggchildren and do the same - it would almost always work if they push f9 to save before entering another one, otherwise there seemed to be timimg issues that would mess up the set.

        Which reminds me of something funny - I go and watch savvy operators use one of my apps and am often amazed with how they do it, from how I "wanted" and "assumed" they would do it, and hold my breath to see if it will even work.

        If an operator CAN do something to cause a record to fail, they WILL.

        Anyway - I am going to have to have then enter children from a form, as you suggested, although I can still let them view the entire set in embedded browses.








        Cole Custom Programming - Terrell, Texas
        972 524 8714
        [email protected]

        ____________________
        "A young man who is not liberal has no heart, but an old man who is not conservative has no mind." GB Shaw

        Comment


          #5
          RE: Bill Hannisburg

          "I go and watch savvy operators use one of my apps and am often amazed with how they do it, from how I "wanted" and "assumed" they would do it, and hold my breath to see if it will even work. "

          I feel your pain!

          I learn most from watching naive users of my scheduling application. Being in house gives me an advantage. I have them keep a diary of everything they hate about the application (which is quite complex because academic scheduling is complex).

          I tell them to be harsh and when they suggest a change I try to implement it. And I give them credit for the suggestion.

          Anyway, I'm with you on the main point. Things have to as close to bullet proof as you can make them. I try to follow Dr. Wayne's admonition to have a larger number of simple sets rather than a smaller number of complex ones. If little redundancy is necessary to achieve this I regard it as a small price to pay for reliability.

          Bill
          Bill Hanigsberg

          Comment


            #6
            RE: Bill Hannisburg

            MArtin

            You have learned the one big lesson of database design that many miss. The user won't use the program as designed. You have to assume that the end user will try anything, do exactly what you told them not to, and generally not follow any instructions. If the program is too slow, they will hit keys repeatedly, swear at the developer, and probably shut down before everything is complete.

            The challenge is to create a design that looks easy, only allows the user to do what you want, traps all other actions, is fast, and especially requires no thought or knowledge. Sometimes the easy part is getting it the work. The hard part is developing it so they can't break it.

            Jerry

            Comment


              #7
              RE: Bill Hannisburg

              Thanks Jerry - its amusing after the fact - certainly not during the development.

              My biggest app, for my oldest client(early 1988), is as far as I know bulletproof - but I went through grueling "learnings." In some of the forms I have to disable all of the "special" keys and manually handle their keyboard, to prevent them from destroying things!
              Cole Custom Programming - Terrell, Texas
              972 524 8714
              [email protected]

              ____________________
              "A young man who is not liberal has no heart, but an old man who is not conservative has no mind." GB Shaw

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