I just purchased A5 and am trying to find a manufacturing program that fits my manufacturing needs. OR Find a programmer who can make it happen for my company, quickly and inexpensively. Job shop. New York City.
-
-
RE: Manufacturing programs/er needed.
I'm your man. I can write it...and I promise to get it right if it takes every nickle your company has. -
RE: Manufacturing programs/er needed.
If you are looking for a web-based job tracking system, I wrote one on A5. Can you be more specific on what you need.Comment
-
RE: Manufacturing programs/er needed.
Dan
There are any number of expert developers who can provide you with a solution. However, I think you will find that quickly and inexpensively may not always produce the results you expect. To meet those criteria, certain compromises must be expected. Be sure you have a clear vision of what you need and expect first, and then work with a few developers to get a good handle on estimated costs and timetables. Projects that are not well defined have a history of expanding in complexity, time and cost.
I once say a great poster posted in the lobby of a small business. It is listed below.
TO OUR CUSTOMERS:
As with all businesses, our customers want their work done good, fast, and cheap. However, through careful research, and years of experieince, we have determined it is only possible to give the customer any two of the above. Kindly select the combination that best suits you needs.
Good and Fast, but not Cheap
Fast and Cheap, but not Good
Cheap and Good, but not Fast
JerryComment
-
RE: Manufacturing programs/er needed.
Amen Jerry.
Dan, don't take offense. The following is not directed at anyone in particular. It's just my opinion for general info and this seemed like a good place to get on my soapbox.
For the benefit of anyone asking for assistance from a professional developer (i.e., anybody who knows enough to get your job done), read Jerry's "pick any two" list carefully. In fact, I'd say, "If you want good (and most people seem to want excellent), don't expect fast or cheap."
Most non-developers and inexperienced developers have no idea (a) that "something simple" is seldom really simple (see note at end), (b) how much damage can be done by users when field rules are inadequate and other "safeguards/protections" are left out, (c) how much more efficient and accurate data input can be when features are added to automate and control the input wherever possible, and (d) how much time (spelled $$$) it takes to build those features in. I could build a down-and-dirty application for myself to use in X hours but it would probably take 3-5X hours to make it something I could ask another worker to use - unless, of course, that worker was a mind reader and knew exactly how the data should be entered, spelled, sequenced, etc. Then, if I wanted to let temporary workers use it, it might take twice as long again - it's amazing what temp help (i.e., untrained help) can mess up.
Setting up the basic tables, sets, and uncontrolled input forms is fast, it's all the "litte tweaks" to make things efficient and reduce errors that take time. Fixing a problem in an invoicing section of one of my apps recently took two full days. Once the solution was found, about 2 minutes was spent typing the solution, 10 minutes to review the scripts to make sure all debugging messages, etc. were removed, 15 minutes was spent restoring the default data and rebuilding the installation routine then uploading it, 5 minutes was spent writing a quick note to the customers telling them what was done and where to download it; the rest of the time was spent working out the logic and running tests to first find then fix the problem. Note that about 1/2 hour was spent just getting the solution to the customers AFTER the problem was solved. This was a generic app so it went to multiple customers but the amount of time to 'distribute' the solution is usually at least 15 minutes even for custom apps. And, no, I didn't get paid for the any of the time on this one. ($80/hr - yeah, right.)
From my experience, quoting the job without accounting for those "additional but necessary" features doesn't work. When something goes wrong because of bad data input the customer assumes you didn't program it correctly. Of course, that means they think you should fix it for free. (Hmmm, let's think about this. If I had programmed that originally it would have taken an extra 2 hours and now it will take me 3 because I have to figure out again how that part of the routine worked but you want it for free!? And, no, I do not have a photographic memory and do not remember every detail of the 132 scripts I wrote for you 6 months ago before I worked on the last 2 major applications and did maintenance on 12 others. In fact, I don't recall any part of it right now - that's why I need extra time now to review what I did.)
Here's what happened on the last two jobs I quoted....
The customer said he expected to pay XX dollars. I said to expect at least double that, more likely three times, and budget for four times. And the down-payment would be about equal to the original estimate. I'm working on one of the jobs - the other person decided it wasn't worth my price.
I've accepted too many jobs in the past for people who just wanted "something simple." (Any budding developer who hears that should interpret it as meaning, "I want something cheap and have no idea how complex it really will be." You can work the rest of the interpretation out for yourself.) Those "simple" jobs are doing their best to break me. Those customers will have a three choices this year - (1) they can pay me more money, (2) they can pay someone else more money (this includes doing it themselves because their time is also worth money) because I will have to go out of business if I can't make enough to live on, (3) they can live with what they have. Last year, I could have almost made as much working at McDonald's.
Developers are actually companies that are in business to make money (at least a decent salary) just as their customers are in business to make money. Developers also have legal, accounting, office, and equipment expenses just as their customers do. My company charges $80/hr and customers seem to think it's too high while other developers and my accountant tell me I should be charging at least $100/hr. (No, $80/hr does not translate to $160,000/yr. as one customer had assumed. Remember those expenses? And don't forget training time, marketing time, shopping time for office supplies and equipment, time with the lawyer/accountant, time spent on quotes, etc., etc. Even time on this message board - I answer a lot of questions here but I also learn a lot here (remember 'training time'). You are hiring a business; not just paying a salary. If you want to pay me a salary, hire me - but it will cost you more in the long run than hiring my business.)
Remember the story about the guy that was hired to fix a machine that nobody else could seem to fix and he charged $50,000 to put an 'X' on the machine and then hit it with a hammer? When questioned about the bill he said the charge was for knowing where to hit the machine. The same is true with database development. You aren't paying the developer to type code, you're paying the developer to know what code to type. This takes years of experience to get good at and nobody ever learns it all. Just like many other things - "doing it" is the easy part; figuring out "what to do" is the hard part.
Another thought for those who just want something simple or cheap. (And, I've heard similar comments on this from other developers.) Some of my best customers are those who started with someone who was cheap - or tried to do it themselves with little or no experience. Once they found out what the results were like, they also started to understand the value of a well designed application. What was really strange was that, in the long run, they didn't pay me much more to rebuild the app from scratch than they paid the original guy who did a poor job. In one case they actually paid me far less - and I made decent money on the job! (But they did end up paying double - once for a poor app and once for a good app.)
A corollary to the above: If you are only going to use it yourself and you want simple and cheap, go for it. If you want other people (usually employees) to use it also, forget simple and cheap - go for quality because it will be cheaper in the long run.
OK, it's way past time for me to get back to work.
Cal Locklin
www.aimsdc.net
*Re: "something simple"
It's been my experience that most people who want something done in a database get the "simple" and "hard" parts completely reversed. There have been many times when a customer was afraid to ask for something because it was perceived as difficult when it was actually a no-brainer that would take 30 seconds. Unfortunately, the reverse is also true and I've had a number of 'discussions' about the cost of something that the customer perceived as being simple but it actually took (or would take) many hours to complete.Comment
-
RE: Manufacturing programs/er needed.
Let me reiterate - nobody should take offense at any of these comments from the developers.
Instead, take the advice to heart and then think carefully about what you need and what a quality database would be worth to your company. I usually figure that an app should pay for itself in 12-18 months or it may not be worth building. Anything after that is gravy for you. If by some chance it will pay for itself in 3 months, be nice to the developer and give 'em a big bonus - after all, you will be getting your original cost back 4 times every year - after year, after year, after year. Just imagine the good will that a nice bonus would create - and the odds that you will need more work done in the future are probably about 1000:1.
Cal Locklin
www.aimsdc.netComment
-
RE: Manufacturing programs/er needed.
Yes, I am looking to track the progress of jobs thru our mfg process. A job can have mutiple starts .... each start can have mutiple items ... each item can be produced on multiple days ... Also, there is a shipping process. Items of the same job are packaged on skids, multiple items per skid. Multiple skids can go on a truck.Comment
-
RE: Manufacturing programs/er needed.
Even though everything you said is true, human nature being what it is, people still think they can get something for nothing. They never give up.Comment
-
RE: Manufacturing programs/er needed.
My experience is that if you want it done so it works the way you want it to work, then you are the best one to do the job. It might take a while to learn the program, and even then you won't be Jerry or Cal (that begs the question of whether anyone wants to be them), but Alpha gives you the tools to do whatever you can imagine, relatively simply. I emphasize the relatively. If you have the money hire someone go for it. If funds are limited no one will give you everything you want for what $ you have but you.
Just my 2 cents.
RussComment
-
RE: Manufacturing programs/er needed.
Gee Russ, I am not sure how to take that. But I think my wife would agree that one of me is enough trouble.
JerryComment
-
RE: Manufacturing programs/er needed.
Although my programming career also bears out the points made above, I'm pretty sure this conversation does not do anything to assist our new A5 user. Probably half of his customers come in to his Job Shop and say the same thing, "I want it quick and inexpensive". Its an empty statement that only means I'm not too sure about what you guys do in there, and I feel a bit vunerable about it. Alpha's website says "made easy", "no programming" and "empowers anyone..." so why wouldn't a new user believe someone could help them out inexpensively. I've seen homegrown applications where the design would make a professional developer ill. But the owner loves it and is is proud of their work and, poorly designed and all, it satisfies their needs.Comment
-
RE: Manufacturing programs/er needed.
Good grief !!! I feel sorry for the unjustifiable beating Dan Freda the author of this thread has taken !!
Guys....Take it easy...remeber Einstein and the theory of relativity?.... Every thing is relative !! The man just said "quickly and inexpensively"...
What does that mean?
As I mentioned on other occasions, I never made a dime nor intend to make any off development. But you guys who make living off development, you need a small lesson in marketing: don't rebuff and don't talk down your potential clients: he might be thinking a million dollar is "inexpensive" !! who knows?! ..The man owns a manufacturing company for heaven's sake (or does he?) ! Plus he lives in New York, where you could buy a fake Rolex for a grand or a slice of pizza for five bucks! Obviousely he's got some money to throw away: He just bought alpha and now he wants someone else to do the programming !! maybe you should focus on the geeky stuff and leave marketing to the charming cute girl in the front desk with the $50,000 silicon upgrade!
So, Dan..speaking off bedniz, let's talk turkey! throw in some numbers ! What is inexpensive to you? and what is quick? if you could swing a mil, I'll throw my hat in the ring !
On a serious note, you overlooked an important item: what might seem like a mountain to someone is simply a molehill to an expert who has been down that road many times over..Many of the features to incorporate in such program, you have already incorporated in others and what might take a newbie a month to do, takes an expert few key strokes..
I remember many years ago when I went to replace the breaks on my car, one mechanic spent all morning trying to fit it in, and when he resorted to a hammer that was my indication to take the car to someone else. The other mechanic, quite familliar with the car make, put it together in a blink of an eye. As it turned out, there was a certain peice that had to be fitted in in a certain angle, which he knew, and that was all it took. That does not mean you pay him less because it took him less time. True, it took him less time to do it because it took him a long time to learn how to do it!
And on that note, I am willing to drop my price to a meager half a mil...
GabeComment
-
RE: Manufacturing programs/er needed.
Thanks for the advice. I have been surprised by the "eruption" of comments.Comment
-
RE: Manufacturing programs/er needed.
Dan,
Don't take anything said here personally. We sometimes get passionate about our feelings.
Best of luck to you!
PeterComment
-
RE: Manufacturing programs/er needed.
g gabriel wrote:
-------------------------------
[...]Guys....Take it easy...remeber Einstein and the theory of relativity?.... Every thing is relative !! [...]
Ehhhh, I last read a book and it stated that Einstein was wrong. The speed of light is slowing down... Is it still Relative?
MarcelComment
Comment