Alpha5 "for non-programmers". That's BS!

[SnapperX1]

Let me first say that everyone who has responded to my questions has shown great patience and kindness, and has offered meaningful and correct information. Thank you.

Nonetheless, as someone who found A4v1 relatively easy to use and setup (as a novice), I fell right into the "....for non-programmers" pitch put forth about Alpha5. What a pile. So far, it appears to be just another waste of more money than I can afford to waste.

While I've only been working on a small business-related database for a few weeks, I feel a bit less dimwitted to have just read (in the forum) that I'm not the only one who has found the "pitch" overblown; that the program for non-programmers.....isn't.

I appreciate that some of you (acceptthis - post on 01-13-2006) may enjoy investing 12 years tweaking a work-related database, or spending hours and more money going to seminars. But, that shouldn't be what a program "....for non-programmers" should be about. Should it? How about simple solutions to simple, reasonably well-defined tasks?

If the program was for non-programmers, it shouldn't take endless visits to the forum to learn how to link tables to a form, or find out that you can't change the font in a memo field.

As for the Alpha "help" resources, and the much touted CHM file.......what a joke. Poorly written and poorly laid out. If you have to read a programmer's dictionary before you can ask a reasonably simple how-to question, that isn't "help".

I would imagine that most people don't want or need to create a database that can be used to run a government or determine the financial health of the world. All this dimwitted, disappointed, Alpha5-sucker wants to do is setup a simple 3-Table database and fill out some forms with the information contained in those tables. We've already paid to have someone setup such a database in Access, but, of course she is gone and nobody has a clue how she set it up. So the database "....for non-programmers" seemed to be a godsend. It turns out to be just another overblown promise.

Whatever happened to the PFS-Professional Series. Worked like a champ. Simple. Straightforward. Got the job done, and it didn't take 12 years to do it!

I apologize for the cynicism, but I've been struggling with this lousy program waaaay to long for what I need it to do, and I am no nearer to getting any meaningful data out of it then when I started.

Can anybody use a single-license copy of A5v6. Cost me $200. Make an offer! I'd give it to a friend. But I like my friends too much.

Steven

[Tom Cone Jr]

Steven,

A good way to get started with Alpha Five is to review the User's Guide from beginning to end. Then work through the tutorials. Step by step. Then begin with simple one table forms. Moving to set based forms after you are thoroughly familiar with simpler forms.

It speaks volumes that you have been struggling with linking tables to forms. In Alpha Five forms are based on tables or sets of tables. The form layout and its underlying data source is automatically linked. When you open the form the supporting table or set is opened automatically. There is no other "linking" required. I don't know why you've been struggling so, but I daresay that this aspect of Alpha Five could not be easier.

Is there a learning curve? Yes. You bet. Is it shorter and flatter than other competing database development packages? I think so. Is it too steep for some folks? Yes. We all have different talents, interests, and needs.

So long.

-- tom

[SnapperX1]

Hello, TC Jr.......

Your response, as you said, speaks volumes........you apparently didn't get the meaning of my previous post...........Alpha5 is supposedly for "non-programmers".....which it is not.


When I referred to "linking" Tables to Forms, I was speaking in general terms. I am aware of "Sets", but then again, Alpha5's help resources leave much to be desired............for the non-programmer.

Relative to the learning curve being too steep "for some folks", you are apparently not one of those folks. More power to you.

As for "We all have different talents, interests, and needs". My interests, I dare say, are like many frustrated Alpha5 users.......and they don't include learning to be a programmer.

As for talents, one of those does include reading (and comprehending), which I do quite well. But it certainly helps if the reading material is written in a clear, complete, organized and easy-to-navigate manner.......which Alpha5's help files are not. If they were, most of the "first user" questions that show up on this forum would never have been written.

Relative to my needs, the only need I have, relative to Alpha5, is a simple "linked" database of facts that can be used to create a form. So far, Alpha5 has been unable in any way, fashion or form to fulfill that need. That's not my fault or shortcoming; it's Alpha5's, "The Program for Non-Programmers!"

Have a nice ride on your high horse Mr. Cone!

[John Gamble]

Steven

Sorry to hear you have been struggling with V5.

With due deference to Tom, who certainly is an expert, and has selflessly provided much assistance to all on the board, I will claim a singularly greater expertise than his. I am the quintessential non programmer. I do not speak X-Greek and I do not code. I will and have gone to extremes not to program. I found that V4 simply could not, without programming, accomplish my needs.

I upgraded to V5 to take advantage of the "GENIES". With their assistance and much help from Tom and others, I have been able to create a reasonably comprehensive application. (60 + Forms & Tables, 120+ Reports) Not bullet proof, not perfect, but it does get the job done. As you would expect, with the added functionality, comes a price. Learning to utilize the power of A5, does require time to understand which tools are best suited to meet your needs.

I have on numerous occassions, found myself fighting A5, to latter discover if I went with the flow I got the desired result.

I understand your frustration with the help files. They don't tell you "HOW TO". I'm not sure we can expect any help system to anticipate the our unique requirements. They do however, provide a comprehensive explanation of the mechanics of A5.

To get your hands around the HOW TO, there are tutorials, FAQ's, the A5 Users Guide & our own experimentation. I believe you will also find that his message board is the single most educational tool available. No other product I know of, even comes close.

Over the last 40 years I have tried numerous NON Programming products. To date, I have failed to find my dream tool. I believe what I have found, is the closest currently available product.

Persever, It's an amazing tool.

Good luck, John

[Raymond Lyons]

I am afraid I have to say that you are both correct and incorrect. I agree that for new users the help files and manuals leave a whole lot to be desired. I believe this is partly because of the move to the chm format, which tends to be most useful for those who already have some level of expertise. Indeed, it seems to me that people with some expertise are exactly the target audience for the manuals. Worse yet, the integrated Help within the program was given short shrift long ago and is now almost worthless for any level of user (even non-existent in many cases). So, yes, there is a glaring need for something more helpful for new users.

But you are off base in saying that Alpha Five is not for non-programmers, if by that we mean that one does not have to learn to write xbasic and xdialog scripts to be able to build a sophisticated application. Action scripting and genies are fairly intuitive and are very powerful. Although I am fairly good writing my own scripts, I recently have been doing quite a bit of action scripting so that my users can make changes without having to come back to me. The power of this stuff is quite amazing, in my opinion.

Still, somehow one has to get started. I would strongly suggest that you get going by NOT trying to build any part of your real application. Instead, make up a very simple, phony application and play with it until you are sick of it. For example, maybe start with a simple two table database whose tables are Students and Courses. The student table might have these fields: Student_ID, First_Name, Last_Name and Course_Name. The Course table, just one field: Course_Name (History 101, Physics, etc.). Enter some data, first just using the default browses for the tables. Then use the genie to build a simple form for each table. Next, experiment with linking the data in these tables with a set. Two fairly obvious sets are possible (a one-to-one and a one-to-many), so try both using Course_Name as the linking field. Create a simple report and a letter using the genies. Gradually experiment with things like calculated fields on your forms and reports, say to combine first and last names. Use action scripting to build buttons to run your reports, filter them and so on. Play around. Use the manuals but when they seem obscure come back to this forum and ask for help. People here are generally most helpful no matter how basic your question might be.

If you give something like this more of a chance I think you will see that you can do some very powerful things without manually writing a single line of code. If you decide to give it another shot, good luck.

Ray Lyons

[SnapperX1]

Raymond & John -

Thanks for your reasoned replies. I guess I just needed to blow off some steam.

I'm not certain how quickly I expected to get something meaningful, and by that I mean work-related vs. A5-learning, out of A5, but it doesn't look like I'm going to solve my problem easily..........

The "lets get the job done" side of me says "Screw it. Hire somebody". The "This can't be this hard" side says keep plugging away.

But, my life's goal is not to be become proficient with A5; that's not why we bought the program. We bought the program to solve a problem, in as short a period of time as possible..........which appears will not happen with A5 or any other currently available database. I guess that's why God created programmers.

So, if you see another "question post" from me, it probably means I decided to tough it out. Or, more likely than not, I hired somebody to solve the immediate business-related problem by having them create the A5 database we need, which provided me with time to mess with the program.

Thanks again.

[dad6l]

I have to agree with Steven !! Alpha 5 Version 7 is not easy to use as a "Non-Programmer"

I find the help section to be written for those that already know a lot about programming. The help section really needs some major "How To" and more examples of use with better explanations of why this/or that is done.

I have trouble understanding Alpha's "Append" operation. I was under the impression that "Append" meant to ADD a new record to a table. From what I see in Alpha, I have to use a "Master" table and a "Transition" table. Why two tables, wheres is "Transition" table. As you can see I'm lost !!

Also, I have a form for Customers created and wanted to Add a new record. So I bring up the form and under it's properties, I use "Onint" and Actions Scripting. Under Action Scripting I use the "Add New Record". When I open the form, I see the form filled in with the first record in the "Customers" table and have to "Tab" thru the fields to get a new screen that has blank fields that I can then add the customer. Doesn't make any sense to me.

I know that I'm NOT the brightest light bulb in the box, but I didn't think I was burned out.

Sorry to say, but in explorer the A5V7 folder is going to get the "delete" button.

[trackmanpete]

My 2 cents

I find that "venting" on this forum is not only unproductive, but hurtful to the people who are the most helpful in trying to learn Alpha 5. When I was a young teacher and something went wrong in class, I learned very quickly you don't yell at the kids who are doing things correctly. You wait and speak individually to each kid who is not performing up to standards. Your frustration with Alpha 5 is not the fault of the people who so generously help here on the forum. The regulars who come on every day and give very simple, clear explanations for unique issues for the rest of us deserve our gratitude not a reprimand.

My own experience is that databases are complex programs with a very steep learning curve early on. A database is not a word processing program. It isn't even a spreadsheet program. Just by the nature of what a database tries to do, programming, whether you use a genie,wizard or scripts is something that will take time and thought.

In my experience there are two things that differentiate Alpha 5 from other database programs: 1) Support and 2) Ease of use for simple databases.

There is no question in my mind that the forum and the people at Alpha 5 care about this product. Response time is quick, answers in most cases are clear and helpful. I don't know if there is another database product that can compete with Alpha in this area.

Writing simple databases by either using the samples provided and slightly modifying them or creating your own simple products is quite easy and can be done without going " backstage" and programming, just as advertised. If you want to make a very complex, custom database that does "tricks", then you will have to spend hours and days and weeks learning more than just the basic "genie" generated solutions.

I have been working on a custom database for about 5 months now which is unique in what I want it to do for me. There are no samples available for me to look at, so I have had to do a lot of thinking and searching for answers for some of my requirements. The least helpful have been the help files. The most helpful has been the forum and the samples designed by Jim Chapman.

Last week I needed to create an attendance list with a 1 to many design. It took me 30 minutes to create everything I needed, including 3 different reports. I did this almost without thinking and used only the genies provided by the Alpha program. Thirty minutes and I had a functional program with the names and data for 100 individuals.

So, if your full time job is to sell product or manage people, find someone whose full time job is working with database programs. If you like computers and like solving problems and creating new useful programs for yourself or your company, and are willing to read and learn and have the time to do so, then Alpha 5 will be a rewarding experience for you.

Pete Schuder

[John Gamble]

Chuck

That a rose would smell less fragrant if called a mango.

In the case you mention about APPEND, with master & transaction tables, think of a batch operation to generally used on multiple records. It was designed to permit adding existing records from one table to another.


To simply ADD a record using a form or browse:
Open your form in Design Mode
From the toolbar:
Choose button & draw a button on your form.
-A define button dialog will display.
-Check Define Script for this button now.
-Check use action Scripting.
-Launch script now.

The code editor dialog script will be displayed
- Cllick on the green + button (Add New Action)
- A dialog of "Genies" will be displayed.
- On the left side scroll down to Records.
- On the right side (Actions), select "Enter a New Record".
- Enter the name of the form you will be using to add this record
- enter an optional name for this script. e.g. "Add Customer Records".
- File - save.

Exit form design by clicking on "FORM - Form View"

Click on the button and enjoy adding customer records.

I found that exploring the available GENIES pointed me in the right direction.

Good adding, John

[Peter.Greulich]

I read your funny post. "Funny" because I can appreciate your frustration. I know you don't think it's funny. But, you're right. These days Alpha is a very powerful program and it can be daunting to get a foothold. Maybe you need Filemaker? I never used that program so don't take my word for it, but a lot of reviews seem to suggest that it is the easiest out there. Of course, there are a lot of disgruntled Filemaker users in the Alpha world who left Filemaker due to its limitations and costly add-ons. Probably the stuff you want to do is pretty simple - if you know how to do it. So I guess it's a choice of jumping to something new and starting over with all the risk that entails (time and $$$ down the drain???) or stick w. Alpha and try to slog through it with help from this board.

I know some people are averse to "venting", but I always think people should feel free to express themselves. Criticism and complaints (positive or otherwise) tend to be the source of innovation. Alpha needs to hear this stuff if they expect to make their program more user-friendly for "non-programmers", as you say.

[Ohlen Cartmell]

Snapper,
Like you I'm a non-programmer. I eventually developed a pretty complex program to run my business. I'm working on another for a friend now. Databases are not intuitive. I found most of my problems were with database design, not with Alpha 5.

I agree it would be difficult to jump into programming relying on just the chm help. It's fine for reference, not too good for learning. However, the tutorials are helpful at accelerating the learning curve. And I especially liked the books by Peter Wayne (he has a new one coming out) that helped me over the learning curve. There are also the books by Susan Hussey Bush that are available from Alpha and she's made her book on A5V5 available by download at no charge. I've downoaded it and use it as a desk reference. The links are available from the newsletter link on the Alpha site. If you can't find them I'll be glad to zip and send. BTW, she has a new book on the updates after V5 which is also available for download by chapter.

I hope you will stick with it for while longer. Lot of help available here. I hope also you'll reconsider your remark about TC and the "high horse". Tom has probably helped more people with A5 than anyone else. I know he only wants you to be successful in your endeavors.

[Peter.Greulich]

One other point. Even though I understand your frustration with Alpha (I really do), I don't think you should take it out on Tom Cone (or others who are trying to help) just because you're mad. As John said above, Tom is one of the most helpful members of this board who goes to great lengths to help others.

[dad6l]

To John Gamble

John,

Thank you for explaining Alpha's concept of "Append".
Also, thank you for the instructions on "Adding a Record". I did as you advised and was able to Add a new record, eventho I would prefer to a have the form NOT show the first record in the table before I pushed the "Button.
I think I can do what I want by first making a form that really is a form with different buttons, that when one is pushed a certain action will take place, such as "Add a Record" or another button to "Change a Record" and open the correct form.

Again, thanks for your reply

Chuck

[SnapperX1]

PeterG -

Thanks again for your reasoned thoughts; you are absolutely correct, I do owe an apology to Mr. Cone. He did nothing more than take time to respond to my post. While I didn't particular care for the position he took, he didn't deserve getting blasted, albeit softly, by me.

I offer my apolology to Mr. Cone and all others I may have thrown sand at. It was deserved.

Best regards to you and all others who share their information and struggles with us frustrated newbies.

Respectfully,.........Steven.

[SnapperX1]

Big typing whoops..........

It "wasn't" deserved.