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Alpha5 "for non-programmers". That's BS!

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    #16
    I had to stick my 2 cents in. I agree with just about everything on this thread but I think TruckmanPete just about hit the nail on the head:
    My own experience is that databases are complex programs with a very steep learning curve early on. A database is not a word processing program. It isn't even a spreadsheet program. Just by the nature of what a database tries to do, programming, whether you use a genie,wizard or scripts is something that will take time and thought.
    I've found that most people who've never designed and built a real database application don't really understand what a database is and and how complicated they are to design and build correctly. I don't know of anyone who is even halfway proficient at building a database who has said they picked it up in just a week or two.

    What's been most interesting to me is that customers usually think the hard stuff is easy and the easy stuff is hard. That alone should tell you a lot about the difficulty a beginner will have with designing a database. (That misunderstanding has also caused a couple major disagreements with customers. One thought I was cheating them because I wanted to charge $6000 for a job they thought would be high priced at $500. Needless to say, they are no longer a customer. A mutual agreement.)

    Even when going from A4 to A5, there is a lot to learn because everthing but the basic relationships of sets is done differently. I made the switch back when A5v1 first came out and I'm still learning every day. And, yes, the learning process is often very frustrating. But I've also learned that I can find a solution if I just keep searching and trying.

    I think one thing that people don't even consider is that, unlike a spreadsheet where you are free to enter nearly anything into any cell and it's completely up to the end user how the spreadsheet is used - and, therefore, how accurate the results will be - a good database application will restrict the user from entering bad data and assist with entering good data. However, to build all that functionality requires a lot of thought about the actual processes involved which takes a certain type of personality - one that can think in very detailed steps.

    One example I've used to explain the detail required is to ask someone to explain to me how to start a car. The typical answer is something like, "Well, you get in the car, put the key in the ignition, and turn the key." The real answer is more like this:
    - First determine if you are already standing up or if you are sitting down or, perhaps, still laying in bed.
    - IF you are sitting down, lean forward so your weight is over your feet then push up with your leg muscles while keeping your center of weight straight above your feet until you are standing upright.
    - Next, shift your weight to your right foot and put your left foot forward.
    - Put your left foot down and shift your weight to that foot.
    - Repeat until you've reached the hallway to the back door (checking after each step) and twist your body as you step when you reach the hallway.
    - Continue stepping (moving one leg forward and shifting your weight to it) until you reach the key rack.
    - Select the keys to the correct vehicle. (Some decision mechanism has to be provided here so you get the right keys.)
    - Pick up the keys with your hand. (I will skip all the gory details about how to do that.)
    - Move your left hand to the door knob on your left then grab the doorknob and twist it. (Allow for checking to see if this knob has a lever type handle rather than the more conventional knob.)
    ...... etc., etc., etc.

    Of course, if you are simply building a small database that you will be the only one to use or you don't mind spending weeks training someone else to use it, you can just build some tables and maybe a couple sets and enter the data into the default browses or default forms. However, as soon as you want someone else to use it, I guarantee there will be problems and a lot of bad data before they learn to do it right.

    Therein lies the power of a database. A well written application can overcome most of the "bad data" issues and make data entry fast, easy, and accurate. Trying to accomplish the same thing in a spreadsheet or, worse yet a word processor, is nearly impossible.

    Unfortunately, learning to harness all that power is not so fast and easy.

    Comment


      #17
      Chuck

      I think you are refering to a Menu. It is simply a form with a bunch of buttons which call other forms, actions (e.g. X-Dialog box, operations (Append, Copy.....), reports etc. Take a look at the attachment from my response to your other post "Font..."

      That is my main menu. All actions start & return there. The various tabs cover Screens, browses, reports, utilities etc.

      Each button calls an action script, which in turn utilizes one or more Genie(s).
      A called form has a series of buttons to...etc. While I claim not to code, I will admit (reluctantly), that on a couple of occassions I cheated. When I wanted to do something special & genies couldn't help, I resorted to accepting the advice of Tom or one of his equally talented cronies.

      Thats the beauty of Alpha, let the genies do most of the job, then code (UGH!) the few exceptions. I'll not be satisfied till the genies can do everything X-basic can do.

      Realistically, I fear I will die frustrated, but I still will have accomplished 97 % + of what I set out to do. Not a bad record

      John

      Comment


        #18
        I am interested in hearing more detail about the deficiencies of the documentation. I am ready to fill in the gaps when you point them out to me.

        Until now, my perception of the documentation was that it adequately provided for the "newbie", if he or she worked through the tutorials, then provided ample reference material for afterwards, when you needed questions answered.

        I should also point out that if the .CHM format is the problem, you can always get PDF versions of the documentation.

        Comment


          #19
          Mr. Larrabee:

          Since I'm the one who started this thread with my initial knee-jerk rantings, I will give your question more thought before I reply.

          In retrospect, I believe that one of my initial frustrations was caused by my having difficulty downloading onto my PC the Tutorial and .CHM files, which caused me to have to try and follow the Tutorial on-line. As someone who grew up with PCs reading printed manuals where I could make margin notes, dog-ear pages for later reference, etc....it didn't work too well for me. In short, I can't say that I truely gave the Tutorial a chance. As soon as I can get it on my PC, I will go at it again.

          Thanks for your attention.......Steven

          Comment


            #20
            Edward

            I believe you have done an excellent job of documenting the mechanics of the HELP. As a suggestion for those of use who are not experts and often miss the nuances, some further samples, restrictions and usage would prove invaluable. e.g. HELP CASE(). The current Example displayed is:

            case( TEMP < 32, "Cold", TEMP < 65, "Cool", TEMP < 80, "Warm", TEMP > 80, "Really Hot" ) -> "Cold", if TEMP is 30

            An additional example substituting the result with ".T." would help those not familar with the use of the case statement, & suggest an additional use for it.

            EXAMPLE:
            Use of case() statement in an expression, to filter records.

            The case statement will select the record as soon as the first true condition is encountered.
            NOTE: the use of �.t.� . In this case you are not interested in the actual result, just that the expression evaluates to �TRUE�

            case(
            "N" $Hardware->Caction, .t.
            "R" $Hardware->Caction, .t.
            "P" $Hardware->Caction, .t.)


            If the 2nd condition is true (Caction contains �R� the record will be selected and the case statement will not evaluate any further records.

            Another example is the "SELECT...CASE". In the last couple of days I tried everthing to no avail to get this to work in an expression. Finian pointed out on the board that this construct could not be used in the expression builder. The addition of a USAGE or RESTRICTION Title would have saved me hours of frustration.

            USAGE: May be used in .....
            May NOT be used in the expression builder.

            HOW DO I

            In my main app I provide the user with a help file which includes HOW DO I. (See Attach)

            I realize the information may be available in one of the many manuals. But which one and where. For example, if there was a topic HOW DO I: Create Global Variables.

            Control panel - Interactive - Click on "V".

            This need only be a pointer to the correct manual & title (if available), or its own topic if not. I notice the help does list HOW TO List Global Variables but that appears to be an X_Greek command. Not friendly to us non programmers.

            In summary, I think you have created a very comprehensive help for programmers. What this non programmers would appreciate is help on the NON PROGRAMMING or KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) method of doing it. Of course Stupid refers to us not you.

            Thanks, John

            Comment


              #21
              Steven,

              Just to add my 2 cents as well, just about everyone here knows that my Xbasic code tends to be complex and that I'll make A5 jump through hoops. So to tell you it's easy, I'm not exactly the "non-programmer" type.

              On the other hand, many, many clients who show up at my door end up being managers, secretaries, volunteers at the church etc, etc. These are people with no background in databases, programming or even business methods.

              What surprises me time and time again is not what these people couldn't do, but what they accomplished on their own with no real skill. Now mind you, they make many mistakes in the organization of their data and application, but they accomplished incredible feats without programming, or by grabbing pieces of code from this message board or other samples.

              Almost any database consultant would probably tell you that you would be better to pay some dollars upfront to have a consultant get you basically started in the right direction, and to answer questions along the way as you developed, and that would save a lot of grief down the road.

              But these non-programmers accomplished an application without direct help. Alpha 5 is the database for non-programmers. But when you start to program (and we're talking programming like simple action scripting), you take it to a whole other level.

              If I had to say Alpha 5 had one big fault, is that with so much power, it's hard for a beginner to separate the advanced from the simpler techniques and know what to ignore.
              Regards,

              Ira J. Perlow
              Computer Systems Design


              CSDA A5 Products
              New - Free CSDA DiagInfo - v1.39, 30 Apr 2013
              CSDA Barcode Functions

              CSDA Code Utility
              CSDA Screen Capture


              Comment


                #22
                Alpha5 "for non-programmers". That's BS!

                I assume this is a typo & should have been:

                Alpha5 "for non-programmers". That's AS!
                for Action Scripting.

                John

                Comment


                  #23
                  Originally posted by Edward Larrabee
                  I am interested in hearing more detail about the deficiencies of the documentation. I am ready to fill in the gaps when you point them out to me.

                  Until now, my perception of the documentation was that it adequately provided for the "newbie", if he or she worked through the tutorials, then provided ample reference material for afterwards, when you needed questions answered.

                  I should also point out that if the .CHM format is the problem, you can always get PDF versions of the documentation.
                  Ed, I think that over the years the documentation has gotten better and better, if you can find anything. It is pretty difficult to find things if you don't know what the specific term is for what you want to do. I'm not sure I have a solution to this but it is something else I have observed.
                  I also think it would be good to have a section "Begin Here" which first has a section that describes a relational database and how they work. the basic stucture. This was done pretty well on the old A4V6 book. (This may be in the curent docs, honestly I haven't looked as I'm no longer needing this, but did once and found the A4 book helpful)
                  I also think that a lot of people jump into A5 without going thru any of the tutorials. If a user does the action scripting tutorial it would help in a lot of cases. Maybe a workbook would be good. I agree A4 can be difficult, but it's still easier than anything out there if given a chance.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    The manuals, whether in chm or pdf format, tend to be most useful for those who already have some level of expertise. Indeed, it seems to me that people with some expertise are exactly the target audience for the manuals. Worse yet, the integrated Help within the program was given short shrift long ago and is now almost worthless for any level of user (even non-existent in many cases). So, yes, there is a glaring need for something more helpful for new users.

                    Also, e-manuals are OK and even desirable for people who already know the basics, but I would bet that for those just beginning to learn something new and complex, having a printed manual in the form of a book is far superior. Yes, I know you can buy printed versions of the e-manuals. But of course the e-version (I contend) is not what they need anyway, and even if it were, how many new users would pay that rather high price? I may not be typical, but I don�t think I would.

                    As for the tutorials, I just looked at the Getting Started tutorial for the first time, and although to my eyes it looks very good, I think to the eyes of most new users the examples (and thoroughness) are way too complex.

                    One thing seems to be clear: there are a lot of new users on the forums. So this subject should be of some importance to Alpha Software.

                    Ray

                    Comment


                      #25
                      What may help newbies

                      HI All,

                      I remember my first encounter, trying to develop a DB. I was lost with the data-base glossary. I had no idea what a relational DB was, not to mention table, field, tag, index (I could go on and on but I am sure you get the idea). BTW I am not a programmer, It seems as though I can read it properly but not create it. I am sure that I need to learn the pseudo code, and I could probably go on from there.
                      Ed

                      Comment


                        #26
                        I don't believe any relational database products are intuitive or easy to learn if you have no prior experience with database products.

                        Prior experience with A4 is sometimes a bigger impediment to learning A5 than it is a help.

                        It's far easier to jump from one word processor to another or from one spreadsheet to another than it is to jump from one database to another, even if one was A4 and the other is A5.

                        A database for non-programmers may still require an investment of time to learn its basic functionality and its pecularities. That's true of Filemaker and Lotus Approach, both products that are/were touted as being easy to use and requiring no programming.

                        I have yet to find another database product that will do more than A5 without requiring programming.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          A5 much worse than A4

                          SnapperX1 I AGREEE I AGREE! Having been with Alpha since I think A2 or 3.
                          I came here to find an answer to how the Control Panel can be full screen when one starts A5. Looked in the 'Help' read the User's Guide and wasted probably an hour trying. Happened here to see that I was not as stupid as I thought. Have spent many frustrating hours (and over a thousand dollars purchasing ) trying to get A5 to do what I want. Still use/understand/love A4; it came with a great Reference Manual and I made the error of assuming A5 would be even easier as Windows based.
                          I have tried on and off for some four years to get a Startup Form to work - possibly the location of the form is in too 'deep' a folder as I get an error whenever I choose from Properties from the File menu.
                          Letters come out in an unknown random order whatever I choose as the order field. The problems go on and on and on.....

                          Comment


                            #28
                            I have tried on and off for some four years to get a Startup Form to work
                            Four years? If you post your db (or your form), I'm sure one here of us can get it to work in about four minutes. I know things are tough all over. But they're not that tough!
                            Peter
                            AlphaBase Solutions, LLC

                            [email protected]
                            https://www.alphabasesolutions.com


                            Comment


                              #29
                              There is always some exaggeration when a product is put on the market: no-one gets sales crying "buy my stinking fish!"

                              But as a 71 year old beginner to Alpha with little background in database design (I did use something called Superbase many years ago but it was quite different) I think Alpha works substantially as advertised.

                              I look forward myself to image handling and form positioning/sizing being made easier and fuller, but that's my interest, not accounting or inventories.

                              And what annoys me chiefly is the Help system: if I type in, say, "Table" I get so many entries that's it's not very helpful. Surely I should get to the main item on table design and then have the option to dig deeper?

                              Not a fan of Microsoft, I do however prefer their standard Help system.

                              PS: My startup form works! Lucky me. And it has a secret little hot spot so I can hide the control panel and then get it back when I want to. Thanks, someone, for the neat idea.
                              Last edited by Robin Hoare; 02-12-2006, 07:22 PM.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Robin Henagulph,

                                There are options in Database Properties to set the startup form, and to maximize the opening window.

                                From the Control Panel, Choose File, then Database Properties.

                                -- tom

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