Alpha5 "for non-programmers". That's BS!

[[email protected]]

As a non-programmer, I have been very happy with Alpha overall, but what I have realized over time as a non-programmer is that you do have to learn the basics.

I started with Alpha Four Version Three. They had a great tutorial. I went through each chapter and that is where I got started. They also had a great reference manual that was great help and greatly used.

I tried each version of Alpha Five, but I just expected to know it since I had the previous Alpha Four experience. Finally last year I printed out a couple of the tutorials and went through each section. Like Alpha Four it gave me a handle to begin the process.

I must admit for some reason the help does seem to be less helpful for me than with Alpha Four. It seems to go to some complicated solution when I have attempted to use help or it may seem like it assumes you should know stuff that I don't intuitively know. I don't know what could be done to make it easier, but I know that this forum makes up the difference.

In about a week with the help of many of you all on the board, I got up and running with my conversion to Alpha Five version six. I even received help from the Alpha staff. I just know that no other program would offer all that assistance. I am grateful to each of you for that assistance even when I am really not an active participant.

Of course what is most gratifying as a non programmer is that I added a new staff member who came from a larger non profit with a "programmed" database. She tells me that our Alpha Database runs circles around their database. How about that for a non programmer! Thanks for helping me get there.

[Edward Larrabee]

That's the way the help system works. You could, of course, use the search function to narrow down the number of topics.

[Fletch]

I agree with much of what you said. But there is a learning curve with everything and sometimes one has to accept it and "choke down" that learning curve.

Here's another approach. How much is your time worth? If you have as you say, a "simple" application, then ask one of these fine folks who have responded to you to do the application. Should be less than $1K. Now you have what you want and you can build it up from there.

Please realize that every developer knows when a user says "simple" the user really means "wait there's a lot more I haven't told you about what I want this application to do and yes, it's mission critical and if you screw up, I'll bad mouth you to the world, bitch about the price and call "1-800-I-SUE-4-U" to make your lousy, miserable, wretched developer's life worse than it already is.................

[CALocklin]

Please realize that every developer knows when a user says "simple" the user really means ............

Fletch (and others), this is just a general comment regarding the design and build of a database and the "customer interface" involved.

Consider my earlier comment:

What's been most interesting to me is that customers usually think the hard stuff is easy and the easy stuff is hard.

I think this is part of the reason new users, or just customers who haven't built a database, think their job is simple. In their mind, the concept is simple and there are only a few steps. However, they don't realize how many questions and decisions are being processed to achieve the desired result and if it really was that simple, there probably wouldn't be any need for a database. (EX: "Take the data from this generic app and just export it to quickbooks" - a major undertaking that I won't even consider on a generic app because of the variations of how the user might set up quickbooks but a customer did ask me to built it into his generic app because he thought it would be a no-brainer.) It can take weeks of walking them through the steps and asking questions they never even considered before they start to understand that it wasn't as simple as they originally thought.

Now for a brief example of the opposite - "they think the simple things are hard to do":
A customer once came to me and, with expressions of great concern and apologizing for inconveniencing me, asked if I could possible move a button from the left side of the form to the upper right. True story!

[disco4me]

Steven, while you might be unsure about incvesting more money in Alpha at this time since you mentioned possibly hiring a developer instead, the documentation is available in printed book form: http://www.alphasoftware.com/shop/PrintedDocv7.asp

This is my first time on the forum and I am close to purchasing Alpha5. From this thread I can see how important it is to have the printed documentation. However, for something so critical to users, to me, the price of the printed documentation seems rather high. The price of the documentation is over 50% of the current price of Alpha5....$69 for the documentation and $129 for the program itself.

[Fletch]

Hey, I hear ya. But that's the price of admission. Don't belive me?? Buy Access, FileMaker, etc.... --- see how much documentation you get -- ZIP - NONE - NADA. Everyone stuffs the info into their help files or pdf help files on their web sites.

Fact is, it's just too expensive to print hard copy given the need to make constant changes. Alpha Five has pretty good "free" documentation included (it's as good as Access or FileMaker). I'm new to AV and between this forum, the help files included and what I've found on AV's web site, the documentation is pretty good.

What most users want (me included) are exact examples of what I need my application to be, so I can just start using the application and not have to learn anything. My biggest challenge with AV is trying to learn and understand the terminology. For example, APPEND, COPY, etc... and what's the difference between similar commands.

[CALocklin]

Fletch, I agree with you completely.

People shouldn't forget that the printed document is essentially the same as the on-line documentation except that your printed documentation will not be update like the on-line documentation is on a regular basis. I suspect that part of the reason for the high cost is that the sales volume is relatively low. Personally, I've never purchased the printed documentation. (However, it did come with V1 so I had somewhat of a headstart on the later versions.)

Re: "exact examples of what I need my application to be" ....

We all would. But consider this - I've built / fixed / updated quite a few applications and there have been very few scripts or functions created in one application that could be used as-is in another application. Yes, there are a few (I even have an AIMS_StdFuncs.aex file for them) and if I wanted to piece together my report parameter dialogues one question at a time and such then I could probably do more. However, I strive to build user-friendly apps and answering questions one at a time then having to cancel and start over if you forget something isn't user friendly. Below is a screenshot of a "standard query" dialog I built for one customer. The user simply clicks the appropriate radio button then double clicks a choice from the list below which automatically fills the section on the right and clicking the 'Run Query' button builds and runs the query. The choices are built dynamically based on the current data available. As you can imagine, this isn't applicable for anyone else. If Alpha tried to provide examples of everything, the task would be never ending.

[Robin Hoare]

I live in New Zealand and the cost of shipping the documentation to me would be prohibitive (plus I can't afford to lose the time)
So I downloaded just about all the documentation I could and printed it out on my laser printer.
Then I went to The Warehouse (like Walmart) and bought four or five big lever arch files, and spent a happy hour punching holes in it all and inserting the pages.
I also did an index of sorts... all very time consuming but I got to find my way around the documentation.
All I have to do now is to get a kit for a new bookshelf to store it all
I much prefer to have documentation on paper so I can sit on the sofa with it and doze in the evening.

Robin

[Robin Hoare]

There is of course another possibility: on demand printing.

Have a look at http://lulu.com and see how much (or little) it costs to have
stuff printed professionally

I have no financial involvement... except

http://people.lulu.com/users/index.php?fHomepage=202264

(shameless advertising!)

Robin

[Elke]

Steven,

I understand your frustration, I have been there too. I have been with Alpha since '97, Alpha Five Ver. 2. That one came with a box and a book, don't see those anymore. I am not a programmer but have developed an application for my company with 14 employees. It's not perfect but if I do say so myself, it's pretty good. The way I began was to take one of the sample databases that comes with A5 and modified it until it met my needs. I don't know if this helps at all but it was a good start for me.

Good luck.

- Elke

[rfha]

My two cents worth:

I was trained as a programmer and did a lot of pretty heavy duty stuff for years. On the Mac, back in the Plus and SE days, I used Omnis 4, 5 and 7. (Dunno why no 6!). Omnis 7 was a great database language, really fantastic. One of my apps had almost half a million lines of code and handled, amongst many other functions, every payroll jurisdiction in the US, USVI, PR and Guam. (I am not bragging, just stating a fact).

I thought Omnis was marvellous. It was fast, super easy to use, well documented, et al. It came with printed documentation that started from step one of developing a database, how to design one, and went on from there, getting as detailed as anyone could wish. A user could start and use what felt good to them.

That type of documentation just isn't done today. The cost of a book is too high, says the software company. I positively hate having to leave my problem to look something up! I want that book right on my desk, marked up, ready to go! (Yes, I did buy the Alpha books, but they aren't what I am talking about).

I would never call Omnis a tool for non-programmers. Nor would I call A5v7 one. No way! It is a programmer's tool, pure and simple, and IMNSHO should not be advertised any other way.

The documentation, from a programmers point of view, is very good, very complete.

But it is not for the novice. Yes, Alpha Sports is a good shot and demonstrates many neat and necessary tricks and tips. But I don't think it is enough.

I find that much of the documentation uses examples involving hard-coded values, but rarely gives a simple example involving a table and associated variables. Haven't seen one yet involving two tables. (Don't hit me, I am sure there are some in there somewhere). Yes, Alpha Sports does have those, but you should not have to jump back and forth to find something.

To me, there seems to be a basic premise in Alpha that the reader has some understanding of what is going on before looking it up, and yet that is often the exact opposite of the situation.

I came back to programming years after an illness that prevented the level of concentration that programming required. Now I find myself somewhere well above a newbie, but no longer an accomplished programmer. I jumped on A5 last fall for a simple application that it seemed perfect for. The app is done, but there are bugs (reported) that cause problems, so it cannot be released.

The A5 books available from Pace, in my opinion, are quite good and are written from the non-programmer point of view. Worth the cost. But, again, why should you have to buy an additional book for a product that makes the Alpha claim?

I think that almost everything said in this thread has merit. But I also found something that wasn't so obvious. Go back and look at the posts. Mostly, the programmers think A5 is simple and easy to use. The non-programmers, those who do not want to become programmers, do not think so.

Folks, if a product is gonna advertise itself as being for non-programmers, and if it was, this discussion would not occur! At least not in this detail.

Why, pray tell, should a person buying the software based on that statement, have to go through an extensive learning curve? That just does not make sense to me.

MS Word has a lot of power, but you do not need to know that to write letters, a pamphlet, a flyer or any of the hundreds of other tasks you can do with no detailed documentation whatsoever. The examples show you how to do it all in minutes.

Alpha is not a word processing program, of course. I just use that as an example to make the documentation point.

In closing, I want to say that I think Alpha is a truly powerful, excellent dbms that has a good many bugs and shortfalls, and which is not for anyone but a person with at least some programming knowledge. I don't think it should be advertised as it is.

The strongest thing behind Alpha is this forum. Y'all are wonderful.

Thanks for listening to my rant. I hope no one takes offense, for none is intended.

Take care, have fun, be safe! ;)

[Mike Wilson]

persective

I�m 9 months into my A5 database experience. I have come to realize from reading others� posts and posting to this board myself that, as in all of life, language and definitions are absolutely fundamental and critical to communication and fulfilling needs. In this vain, and what I senses, is that this thread began with the concept of the term �non-programmer�, and that concept has not an exact point of definition for all. Sometimes analogy brings perspective and definition.

�Pierce plastic covering. Microwave lasagna for 5 minutes. Let stand for one minute. The food is ready to be eaten�.

The other end of the spectrum:

The soil is tilled, the seeds are planted, the wheat plant grows, the wheat is harvested, the grain is collected, the grain is milled, the flour is sifted, the flour is mixed with other grains, the water and yeast are added, the dough is kneaded, the dough is baked, the bread is cooled and sliced, the sliced bread is joined with meats and cheeses and condiments, and a food is ready to be eaten.

I�m thinking foods exist through various levels of preparedness, from the ground to the table. At what point of food production and kitchen activities does one become a cook and at what point a non-cook.

Think of the prepared meal as the end database. I�m thinking there is a farmer, a cook and a consumer. I am not a farmer, but I am a cook, and do make great meals for myself, friends and family to eat. I am not a programmer but I do "cook up" great databases for my friends and clients to use. And A5 is by far the finest grocery store at hand for my cooking needs, and this message board is replete with a spectrum from occasional cooks through world class farmers and chefs willing to help me with my cooking needs.

For all you out there complaining about A5, I'm thinking your just having trouble cooking. And if you need to be a non-cook, then your going to have to buy your meals made by someone else.

Mike W.

[Cheryl Lemire]

OK, time for my 2 cents.

Great analogy Mike. I think many of us wish we were or like to think we are the farmer, cook, and consumer :)

To me a programmer is one who writes code. I see a non-programmer as one who would be able to create tables/forms/queries/reports etc without having to write code. This would be action scripting and extensive genies.

Nowhere does Alpha claim that there are 'NO SKILLS REQUIRED' when using their software or creating a database. Designing a functional database, whether it be a 'simple' one or a 'complex' one, is NOT easy unless you have certain skills.

These skills can be, but are not limited to: familiar with computer operations in general, understanding database design and development, some sort of trouble shooting skills, ability to read and understand documentation, a positive attitude, familiarity of software, effective communication (how to ask for help and the willingness to ask for help), etc, etc, etc

When learning how to use any software program, there is always trial and error and time frustrations. To some, a word processor is considered 'easy' to use ... yet to others, it is a complete nightmare and they cannot figure out how to bold their text. The difference being their level of computer software knowledge and comfort.

This is no different when using or choosing a software program to 'create databases'. When Alpha says 'non-programmer' I do NOT believe it is their intent that a 2 year old can buy the software and create phenominal databases. Their intent, or at least the way I understand it, is that you do not have to 'write code' to create your database. You can use extensive genies and action scripting that write all the code for you.

As far as the documentation is concerned, my heart goes out to Ed. It is my opinion that he has done a wonderful job putting together documentation for all of us.

I am in the process of writing a help file for a 'simple' database (that I have been working on for 2 months - simple, LOL). I am finding myself creating help files for the end user that has little or no software experience. This alone is probably going to take me a month to complete as I have gone to the extreme.

I can guarantee you, that even when I am done, there will be a user out there somewhere that will have no clue of what my help files are trying to explain. On the other end, there will be users out there that are real good at moving around software that they will think the help files are not helpful to them at all. All this for something that will only sell for $20.

OK, I am off my soap box for now :)

Cheryl

[Fletch]

Note to all:

There are no perfect programs -- just perfect PROGRAMMERS!

[Mike Wilson]

Cheryl,
What you wrote gets to the fundemental premise.

"Nowhere does Alpha claim that there are 'NO SKILLS REQUIRED' when using their software or creating a database".

Bravo!

Mike W