V8 release date

[Lenny Forziati]

Re: V8 release date

The runtime will be released at the same time as Alpha Five itself.

[rfha]

Re: V8 release date

Marcel,

I was referring to the 5 manuals ("Gettting Started with Alpha Five", et al) which I purchased with, or right after, my original purchase of Alpha just over a year ago.

I just checked the documentation area, however, and find that those and a number of other manuals are available in pdf format. Perhaps I just paid for the printed versions. Memory fails.

It is nice to see more manuals available. Guess I should have checked back sooner, as I probably would have saved myself some agony!

Time rolls on and things will get better, as we all hope.

And I know it is a relief to all to hear confirmation from Lenny that the RT will come out with the full jug of V8.

[chandran]

Re: V7 Documentation

Marcel,

I was referring to the 5 manuals ("Gettting Started with Alpha Five", et al) which I purchased with, or right after, my original purchase of Alpha just over a year ago.

I just checked the documentation area, however, and find that those and a number of other manuals are available in pdf format. Perhaps I just paid for the printed versions. Memory fails.

It is nice to see more manuals available. Guess I should have checked back sooner, as I probably would have saved myself some agony!

Time rolls on and things will get better, as we all hope.

And I know it is a relief to all to hear confirmation from Lenny that the RT will come out with the full jug of V8.

I also purchased the manuals to find that they are just printed copies of the help files. The sad part is that the manuals are not even indexed. The most frustrating part of the manuals are the search for appropriate page. After sometime, somebody called and offered some books for a total cost of $200. I had no confidence in buying them due to the first experience in buying the manual.

[Peter.Greulich]

Re: V7 Documentation

I also purchased the manuals to find that they are just printed copies of the help files. The sad part is that the manuals are not even indexed. The most frustrating part of the manuals are the search for appropriate page. After sometime, somebody called and offered some books for a total cost of $200. I had no confidence in buying them due to the first experience in buying the manual.

If you download the CHM file (or use the OnLine WebHelp), you can search on anything. I stopped buying books or using PDF's after the CHM came out. It has everything the books have.

[Steve Wood]

Re: V8 release date

Some of this is lost on history. The printed versions were produced specifically because people were asking and complaining that the PDF's were not convienient as a handy reference. Try printing the xbasic reference some time - its over a thousand pages. So the printed versions were published in the 7x9" spiral bound format for those who wanted it. There is an extra cost associated with publishing, hence the books require payment to obtain. I too wish they had indexed them before printing. I don't see where they are sold on Alpha's site, but I remember that when they came out it was clear they were just republished versions of the existing documentation.

[rfha]

Re: V8 release date

Steve,

Yes, I understand that. Printing off stuff was why I ordered the 5 that I did. But I'm gonna beat this drum yet one more time - If you have to search the whole darn book to find something, then what good is it? You are better off going online and doing a search!

Documentation is not documentation - IMNSVHO - unless it is easy to use, indexed, contented, clearly and realistically exampled, and above all, designed not for the knowledgeable user, but for the person who just bought the product.

If PRO versions are thought needed for experienced users, then do it again.

That is all part and parcel of the software development business.

The world has gotten both lazy and cheap because producing books is expensive, but these Windows style help systems are so clumsy that they are nearly useless for many folks. Show me a real table of contents supported by an index, real world examples, et al, and I shall shut my mouth. ;)

I certainly do not mind paying for real documentation. What I got in those 5 books was something not very useful at all, for the above reasons.

And once again, the man has put his head on the chopping block...

Go ahead, Alpha pros, Turkey Day is tomorrow, so sharpen the axes and have at me...

[no2gates]

Re: Documentation

Yes, with their history of special sales that end on X date and then are repeated multiple times with the same prices, I also wonder.



I did place my order and have been wondering ever since if I made a mistake. The promo stuff so far just says it loads faster and has new skins. Sure do hope there is one hell of a lot more to it than that!

Like real documentation for a change.

i have an original (my own) copy of dBase II serial #47. i picked it up from larry tate (R.I.P.) (ashton-tate) at his silverlake bicycle/tv repair shop. (for my fellow veterans out there i also did kp at the Last Supper (iwish):-).

while alpha's idea is great and, i'm sure, the coding is up to snuff, the onscreen and documentation constructs STINK ! the docs behind dBase and clipper thru 5.2 are for the most part monuments to clarity and elegant presentation. today's documentation is a nightmare ! with oops programming, functional (tv?) illiteracy, cellphone irradiated brain tissue etc. is it any wonder that the state of documentation is both "wihout form and void" of discernable structure ??

with alpha's lack of response to some very fundamental queries (xp-64 etc.) i should NEVER have sent my $99. i don't know if this situation is a screw up or a deliberate plot to drum up business for var's and "gurus".

to alpha: if you really want good docs get an OLD dbase, clipper, or basic manual and I-M-I-T-A-T-E. ever use a flow-chart ? OOPS (!) means "pardon me i didn't mean to do that."(like crepetating at the dinner table)

mba's are the minions (generally) of the principalities and dominions in high places. you can take this Christians $99 and put it where the sun don't shine !

To the rest: happy THANKS-GIVING !

phil
webmaster at www.wordstudy.org

[Steve Wood]

Re: V8 release date

Barely ignoring your abhorrent cynicism and lack of respect for those of us (gurus) who choose to be professionals with Alpha -- even so, what exactly is wrong with the documentation?

[Bill Parker]

Re: V8 release date

Anyone who has been around for a while knows that the A5 documentation is not as good as the A4 documentation - which in my estimation was up there in quality with IBM mainframe documentation of the 80's.

But what documentation is good these days? We demand low software prices and this is one of the byproducts. Most people I know have no patience for reading documentation - it just needs to be intuitive. Why should software developers spend $$$ when they know it will not be used?

I am in a minority that DOES read "printed" documentation, and find it cumbersome to browse through CHM files in bed before I doze off. I got the printed help files, and they are useless. But welcome to the real world. The quality of Alpha's message board is a resource that few other vendors have. The product itself is an incredible bargin. And we are here because it works. It cost you $99??? Give me a break!

Bill.

[sayno2gates]

Re: V8 release date

bill i agree to a certain extent...... i was a beta site for clipper, dBase, and cp/m. i am well into my 60's and indeed was spoiled and well educated by this once great civilization. the NO MONEY BACK policy is imo cowardly.

i've been around too. i am the author of a barcoded piecework payroll sytem on 8-bit c/pm in pl/I and assembler which i carried over to dBase II,IV then into clipper. i don't mind using references i do not like "users guides". i learn by problem solving REAL WORLD stuff that's how i made my living. anyhow it ain't the $99, its more the no hosting thing, the counter-intuitiveness of the programming enviornment. i may be wrong, but in the non-responsiveness of the alphasoftware "customer service" to my simple inquiries i detect a hint of arrogance which is generally a cover-up for insecurity, i could be wrong, but i doubt that.

o well, pretty soon the gatesman and his minions will have the entire industry shipped to india and red china..... frankly the proverbial ca-ca is hitting the fan .... hence the general deterioration of goods and services. well i shall be thanking God above all for His Mercy and Patience uswards.

Steve W do not confuse cynicism with a realistic critical attitude :-)

[Steve Wood]

Re: V8 release date

Phil,

I can read, thank you. What do you mean by 'no hosting'? Are you referring to hosting for the WAS web applications?

[Raymond Lyons]

Re: V7 Documentation

If you download the CHM file (or use the OnLine WebHelp), you can search on anything. I stopped buying books or using PDF's after the CHM came out. It has everything the books have.

Peter, I hate to say it but you could not be more incorrect, unless you are speaking merely from a "for my purposes" perspective. The CHM format is good for reference material for users like you and me who already know a lot and mostly just need an occasional memory refresh. It is a terrible format for new users who need to learn almost everything from scratch. And one most certainly CANNOT "search on anything." If it isn't indexed and you don't remember exactly how it was indexed, you are going to be frustrated very quickly. And a general search for something not indexed? In most cases, forget it. You won't find it even if it is in there! In this regard the PDF versions are far superior (one reason I use both).

Many new users just learning the product need something very different from what is currently available in the provided documentation, though some of the tutorials are very good. In addition, as someone said elsewhere in this thread, one of Peter Wayne's early books is the kind of things a lot of new users probably need. And for learning--for most people--I don't think you can beat a printed book that has a good textbook-like flow to it (unlike the CHM files) and that one can mark up, dog-ear, etc.

Ray

[rfha]

Re: V8 release date

Thank you, Ray!

[Peter.Greulich]

Re: V7 Documentation

It is a terrible format for new users who need to learn almost everything from scratch.

Ok, you got me there, Ray. I was thinking along the lines of doing a quick lookup of a function, etc. For a new user, the CHM isn't going to solve their problems. You make some valid points.

[martinwcole]

Re: V8 release date

I talked to Ed Larabee about all this once. He said the development software version he used did not have what we normally think of as indexing capability. I'm not sure if he was silently implying that there is a CHM compiler that could produce a help file with Word-like search capability.

I told him that the Word version of the software (4.0 thru 4.03) was my favorite because I could use Word's built-in search to find anything, and I could then add any additional text I wanted to the Help File. He said, "Hmmm, Word, huh." But nothing ever came of it.

I agree with Bill that users now-a-days expect things to be intuitive enough that they don't need help files. Developing really good and comprehensive help files is time consuming. I spent at least 2 weeks producing Camtasia videos for a commercial app I have running with a lot of users, and they don't use it. I asked a user once if she wanted to watch a video about some part of the app, and she replied, "No, I'll figure it out." I've never made any "help files" since. Unfortunately, for developers and especially new users, that approach won't work.

I regret that Ed is apparently not around anymore. It will take someone really really really good at least a year to become competent enough to write help files. There's xbasic, xdialog, and the WAS. And they are each a thing unto themselves. And by the time he thought he was fluent, there would be the next version! I doubt any one person could be sufficiently competent, anyway - that it would require a team. I suspect the Alpha developers will have to write the help files for V8. Before Ed, as I recall, that's the way it was.

For 'saynotogates' - although I am much much much younger than you are, I started out in CP/M, too.