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V8 release date

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    #31
    Re: V8 release date

    Martin,

    You, too, are right on target - at least up to where you say that the Alpha users would have to write the documentation.

    I know from whence you come, but that "little" task is the job of the software company, not the users. And if it takes a team, which I agree it will, then that team needs to get on board asap.

    Alpha is the only software I've ever used that depends to such a degree on its users to provide support to other users. Now, PULEEZ guys and gals, do NOT get me wrong on this. I think this forum is absolutely fantastic, truly.

    That being said, however, I must also say that it has provided a way, damn, what words do I want. I hate to say it, but I think "cop out" sorta fits the bill, in that Alpha over depends on its users and is thus relieved of a lot of their responsibility. And that statement is sure to get me fried, yet again.

    I just think that the brothers Rabin need to take a fresh look at the way support, which includes proper documentation, is provided.

    Alpha appears to have grown out of the DOS world when every programmer had to be at the swap shop every weekend finding the latest chip and micro-switch to build, or upgrade, his computer. In other words, the users were true geeks.

    That ain't the case today. As several have said on this thread and others, they are not full-time Alpha programmers and don't have it all memorized.

    Back in the early '70s, I worked with a Wang computer that had a 4k memory and a single cassette drive as it's only storage device. Dr. An Wang, one of the two inventors of magnetic core memory, was a genius of the first order. When he left IBM (he was the single largest shareholder as a result of his invention) and founded Wang Laboratories, he demanded clear user documentation from the earliest days.

    That was one of the reasons that his computers caught on so fast back in the dark ages when the dinosaurs wore golf shoes to punch the cards.

    The other reason was that all his computers had the BASIC language was stored on chips as part of the operating system, so that interpreting the code only had to occur once, rather than on each pass, which made the machines very fast for the tiime. (You CPM'ers remember interpreting, I know... :D )

    My point is that Wang documentation was complete and easy to use. In the early '80s I had a software company that included 13 programmers who always wondered how I could solve a programming problem so quickly. The secret was that I knew where to look for the answer in the documentation.

    Unfortunately, such cannot be said about Alpha docs, and I sure wish it were different cuz my gray matter leaketh out as time has proceeded.

    But if it does take the users to do it, perhaps the old farts who know what I am talking about could band together and do it right - and then sell it. LOL

    Whew, this one sure got long. Well, it is time to get ready for the big bird that is gonna disappear before our thankful eyes on this lovely Thanksgiving Day 2006. We can be truly thankful when our troops come home for good.
    Amen.
    Richard

    Comment


      #32
      Re: V8 release date

      Richard, I understood Martin to be saying that the developers at Alpha Software would doing the docs at least until a new person is hired to lead the documentation effort. Not sure why you think he said the end users will have to write the docs but you're seeing something that I can't. :) -- tom

      Comment


        #33
        Re: V8 release date

        Originally posted by martinwcole View Post
        ...I agree with Bill that users now-a-days expect things to be intuitive enough that they don't need help files....
        I do also, except that there is a big difference between user help for an application built with A5 and help documents for new user of A5 who is trying to develop an application, figuring out how to best structure tables and sets, write xbasic scripts, xdialogs, udf's and so on. That's where almost everyone needs good learning tools, which includes but is not limited to the provided documentation.

        As for the CHM help file format, it has it's place, but it should not be the primary format for helping new users. Even the old windows help structure was better in many ways. At the very least there should be not only a table of contents but also a well thought out, very thorough WordPerfect or Word like index plus the ability to search on anything, even partial words or phrases.

        Finally, as someone pointed out here, one of Peter Wayne's early books, even though written in v4 days, would be a pretty good starting point for new users. Sorry, I do not remember the name of that book.

        Ray

        Edit: I think the name of the book is Learning Alpha Five: The Database for Everyone
        Last edited by Raymond Lyons; 11-23-2006, 03:11 PM. Reason: Found book name

        Comment


          #34
          Re: V8 release date

          Originally posted by Raymond Lyons View Post
          I do also, except that there is a big difference between user help for an application built with A5 and help documents for new user of A5 who is trying to develop an application, figuring out how to best structure tables and sets, write xbasic scripts, xdialogs, udf's and so on. That's where almost everyone needs good learning tools, which includes but is not limited to the provided documentation.
          Raymond I think you're exactly right here, regarding the needs a new user (creating the application). I had downloaded the demo version of A5v7 (I havent bought it yet, may do when v8 comes out), and its trying to understand how to do things 'the Alpha way' which I find most difficult. I have used Dataease for many years and of course if I want to achieve certain things with DE I know (usually!) the way, or my preferred way of achieving those goals. When trying to understand how to use a new tool, Alpha in this case, I really need a 'best practise' kind of head start, so that I can understand the best way to achieve the most common tasks. Of course as one becomes more familiar with Alpha I'm sure each developer will find their own preferred methods.
          The Alpha Sports app goes some way towards this, but I found the Alpha Movies demo in the Alpha Tutorial pdf quite useful too.

          My needs, as a new user, are probably very different to the needs of the gurus though ;)

          Originally posted by Raymond Lyons View Post
          As for the CHM help file format, it has it's place, but it should not be the primary format for helping new users. Even the old windows help structure was better in many ways. At the very least there should be not only a table of contents but also a well thought out, very thorough WordPerfect or Word like index plus the ability to search on anything, even partial words or phrases.
          I recently used RoboInfo (similar to RoboHelp) from Adobe to allow colleagues at work to access and find info in our quality system documentation. One can easily make it produce a contents, index, glossary and search function. It worked pretty good IMO. Can output into either web pages or pdfs I believe and so could host on a website or could be zipped so it could be save to the user's PC etc.

          Rich

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            #35
            Re: V8 release date

            Tom,

            I saw something, though mayhap it was later edited. I've been known to do that when I decided my words were too harsh. In any case, my comment about the users writing the docs was meant totally tongue in cheek.

            I've said elsewhere that I didn't think anything like that was in the realm of reality. :)

            But when you get right down to it, I just want everything my way and right now! What's wrong with that? :D
            Richard

            Comment


              #36
              Re: V8 release date

              Originally posted by Steve Wood View Post
              Phil,

              I can read, thank you. What do you mean by 'no hosting'? Are you referring to hosting for the WAS web applications?
              how long to "expand" a server ? how much $ to host ? does alpha software have a "most favoured customer base" ?

              is that a "conspiracy in restraint of trade" ? the mba schools have added ethics departments (under protest) only after the enron debacle.

              alphasoftware has refused to give even a very loose guesstimate of their "expansion". if alphasoftware is a closed club, why are they selling new memberships ?

              Comment


                #37
                Re: V8 release date

                Originally posted by martinwcole View Post
                I talked to Ed Larabee about all this once. He said the development software version he used did not have what we normally think of as indexing capability. I'm not sure if he was silently implying that there is a CHM compiler that could produce a help file with Word-like search capability.

                I told him that the Word version of the software (4.0 thru 4.03) was my favorite because I could use Word's built-in search to find anything, and I could then add any additional text I wanted to the Help File. He said, "Hmmm, Word, huh." But nothing ever came of it.

                I agree with Bill that users now-a-days expect things to be intuitive enough that they don't need help files. Developing really good and comprehensive help files is time consuming. I spent at least 2 weeks producing Camtasia videos for a commercial app I have running with a lot of users, and they don't use it. I asked a user once if she wanted to watch a video about some part of the app, and she replied, "No, I'll figure it out." I've never made any "help files" since. Unfortunately, for developers and especially new users, that approach won't work.

                I regret that Ed is apparently not around anymore. It will take someone really really really good at least a year to become competent enough to write help files. There's xbasic, xdialog, and the WAS. And they are each a thing unto themselves. And by the time he thought he was fluent, there would be the next version! I doubt any one person could be sufficiently competent, anyway - that it would require a team. I suspect the Alpha developers will have to write the help files for V8. Before Ed, as I recall, that's the way it was.

                For 'saynotogates' - although I am much much much younger than you are, I started out in CP/M, too.
                martin;

                the oops construct is counterintuitive and anti-creative. it is a cyber-tower of babel (confusion) foisted by the industry to stamp out independant programming. it is very easy to export.

                richard : amen!
                Last edited by sayno2gates; 11-23-2006, 07:04 PM. Reason: added amen

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                  #38
                  Re: V8 release date

                  Phil,

                  My fault, but I can't understand what you're saying. I bow out.
                  Steve Wood
                  See my profile on IADN

                  Comment


                    #39
                    This is a matter of considerable concern to me. The V8 help on the Alpha Software website seems to be just the V7 help with notes on the new features added. I don't know which of the V7 material doesn't apply anymore. For example, I just learned from Alpha Software that Windows 98 is no longer supported.
                    Jim

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Re: V8 release date

                      Don't worry - you are looking at something that is months old - there will be an up-to-date help file when V8 is released. I don't know about 98, but its time to upgrade, anyway!
                      Cole Custom Programming - Terrell, Texas
                      972 524 8714
                      [email protected]

                      ____________________
                      "A young man who is not liberal has no heart, but an old man who is not conservative has no mind." GB Shaw

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Re: V8 release date

                        Originally posted by martinwcole View Post
                        Don't worry - you are looking at something that is months old - there will be an up-to-date help file when V8 is released. I don't know about 98, but its time to upgrade, anyway!
                        yas indeed, time to enrich the gatesman once more; i anxiously await the next flawed pile of feces from M$. serves those stupid clods right; imagine they spent $ for tools with built in obsolesence.... ever notice how screwed up software has become ? hospitals, emergency services etc. can't even talk to each other.

                        babel on babylon !

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Re: V8 release date & Documentation

                          Hi All,

                          Just a quick example of how the docs need to be looked at in any rewrite.

                          I want to find the average of all values in a table field. So I go to the docs and search on "average", being a rather logical fellow and assuming I might find what I want there.

                          Well, there was some info under "AVERAGE()", but it was confusing to me (not unusual) and it used another one of those examples of an instant calculation vs. anythilng that someone might actually do, as in a script.

                          Then, not being really happy, I started searching the forum and ran across a command called "Tableavg()" which, of course, does exactly what I wanted in the first place.

                          Silly old me, I should have known to look for "Tableavg()" when I meant "average", but if there had been an INDEX (Grrr, Aaarrgh, Ratzafratz, etal ) I could have saved a lot of time and not felt the urge to write a rant.

                          Thank you, one and all ,for putting up with me yet again, and hopefully there is a little documentation elf listening somewhere in management... ;)
                          Richard

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Re: V8 release date & Documentation

                            Richard,

                            When I use the CHM help file there is an INDEX tab. This is where I begin most searches. I begin with the subject I'm interested in. For you English majors out there this is usually a noun. Never an adjective. Then I check the relevant action (verb) word. In this case I began my search using the Index tab and went straight for the verb form: "average" I found exactly what you did. Not helpful. But then I used the index to look for the subject (the noun) which in this case would be "table", since I'm looking for something that will help me process a table. "Average of field values" is easily spotted.

                            I write this not to prove how brilliant I am, but to pass on a technique to others that I find useful. I use the index. I look for subjects (nouns) and I look for actions (verbs). Only then do I turn to the "search" tab and do a custom search.

                            Incidentally using the Search tab and a search key of "average fields" I see the TableAvg() function referenced about half way down the first page of hits.

                            A search using the search key "average" hits TableAvg() at the top of the hit list.

                            If its any consolation this sort of thing gets easier as you get more familiar with the product and the way the help system works.

                            It also helps to pass on suggestions to the technical editors at Alpha Software. They are quick to incorporate good ideas. Here it would be handy to add an index entry for "Average Value" in the Index category "Field", or so it seems to me.

                            Hope this helps. ---- tom

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Re: V8 release date

                              Tom,

                              As usual, you are right on.

                              I shall add the suggestion, too.

                              Maybe an elf needs to be hired to read all threads to categorize problem areas... :)
                              Richard

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Re: V8 release date

                                Originally posted by rfha View Post
                                Maybe an elf needs to be hired to read all threads to categorize problem areas...
                                I think one of the elves recently flew the coop!
                                Peter
                                AlphaBase Solutions, LLC

                                [email protected]
                                https://www.alphabasesolutions.com


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