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Alpha 5 V8 vs MS Visual Web Developer

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    #16
    Re: Alpha 5 V8 vs MS Visual Web Developer

    Edit: One second look, this isn't really applicable to the original question but it may still provide some useful insights.
    A friend pointed out to me that some of these people have been burned in the past by "proprietary" systems...the programmer is no longer around, so who do they go to for help?
    An answer to this was alluded to earlier by DaveM but let me add my 2 (4?) cents.

    You've made the typical statement of concern that it is a "proprietary" system. In fact, the real issue isn't the fact that the underlying database is "proprietary"; it's the fact that the actual application is "unique".

    As you pointed out, the issue is that "the programmer is no longer around, so who do they go to for help?" This will be true no matter what underlying program is used or who builds it. The real issue shouldn't be A5 vs. .net or Access, or Oracle, or any other database. What makes it unique is that it was designed and built specifically for one company.

    ANY program that is built for one company is unique no matter what underlying program or programs were used to build it. And, since it was built for only one company, it was probably built by one person or a small team that will probably not be around as long as a large company like Intuit (QuickBooks). HOWEVER, even if you could get someone at a large company like Intuit to build your custom application, there will be support problems down the road because the original people that designed it will probably leave or get re-assigned and new people will have to figure out what the original designers were doing. In fact, assuming the large company would even do it, the problem is likely to be worse with a large company than it would be with an independent developer. If it was done by an individual developer, someone else may still have to figure out how it was done but that doesn't mean that nobody could do it - especially if your developer documents the "why" part of the application. (Many people document the field names, field rules, and what was on each form but I can get all that very easily. The really important thing is to document any special logic in the scripts. Think in terms of, "I did this because..." and whenever it's not obvious, spell it out in a comment.)

    So, the issue is with a custom built application and that issue will be true no matter who builds it or what they build it with.

    My recommendation has always been, "If you can find a canned program that meets your needs, BUY IT!" However, if someone can't find what they need in a canned program and wants to have someone build them a custom program, WHO creates it for them is much more important than WHAT underlying program is used to build it. I've seen some very good applications in A5 and some very bad ones. And the same is true with other databases. A good developer will do a good job no matter what underlying program is used. And the corollary, of course, is: A bad developer will do a bad job no matter what underlying program is used.

    I know of one A5 application that someone paid about $10,000 for and it was so bad that I would have been ashamed to say it was mine at any price. I've also heard of applications built with databases that are more "mainstream" that don't work even after spending many thousands of dollars. (In fact, I heard of one application using mainstream programming that was released then pulled from the market because it didn't work even after spending well over a million dollars on it. I'm sure they'll try to fix it - they almost have to after spending that much money so far.)

    Some of those "rebuilt databases" have been listed on this A5 message board because they were eventually rebuilt, usually in less time, with A5 - and they actually worked. If my memory is correct, in one case $80,000 was spent on a program before it was shelved and then redone in A5 in a matter of just a few weeks.

    As for the question of, "What happens if you get hit by a truck?" In addition to the above comments, you might point out that, based on the amount and quality of assistance available from this message board, there are plenty of good developers out there who will make sure they get the assistance they need.

    Another interesting point is that they could probably even contact one of the co-founders of Alpha and get some recommendations regarding developers who could handle their type of application. Try to get that from Microsoft!

    So, if you can't sell the use of A5 to a potential customer on this basis, you probably don't want that customer anyway because they will never be happy with anything you do.
    Last edited by CALocklin; 03-17-2007, 03:16 PM.

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      #17
      Re: Alpha 5 V8 vs MS Visual Web Developer

      Originally posted by CALocklin View Post
      Edit: One second look, this isn't really applicable to the original question but it may still provide some useful insights.

      An answer to this was alluded to earlier by DaveM but let me add my 2 (4?) cents.

      You've made the typical statement of concern that it is a "proprietary" system. In fact, the real issue isn't the fact that the underlying database is "proprietary"; it's the fact that the actual application is "unique".

      ............
      As for the question of, "What happens if you get hit by a truck?" In addition to the above comments, you might point out that, based on the amount and quality of assistance available from this message board, there are plenty of good developers out there who will make sure they get the assistance they need.

      Cal, your comments hit the bullseye - what people tend to forget is that the software is just a tool and can be used/abused based on the skillset of the developer. Most applications are implemented uniquely, its the nature of business to use the tools to meet the need of the business. If we only had Excel as a tool, we would all begin to make differing implementations of the functions specific to our needs.
      I have grown weary of the "getting hit by a bus" comments because no matter what application is in use that proverbial bus that takes somebody out will make an "impact" on the organization. Along with backups I have always contended that an effective strategy is to use encoder (camtasia) technology to capture those elements of the environment that are not straightforward and require above average focus because the process is infrequently dealt with or is particularly complex. The encoder sessions can serve as a refresher so one can easily "document" the rational for those key processes. They also would be a good aid to the people that may have to step into emergency situations as this is probably a much better tool than trying to write up the process. If the developer of the database were to provide encoder files as an additional part of the database it would go a long way to counter that big BUS scenario. Bear in mind that if the developer does it while it is still fresh in his mind it will serve as a quick refresher as to why he went down a certain path for those times in the future when he may experience memory lapses;). The current videos on the Alpha Site showcase the value this tool has.

      Ken

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        #18
        Re: Alpha 5 V8 vs MS Visual Web Developer

        I just noticed that Richard Rabin removed his previous posts about the Alpha Software and Web App server with the available "discounts" being closer to $600 rather than $1,000 that I was quoted by the website? Should I consider that a "retraction" Richard?

        Comment


          #19
          Re: Alpha 5 V8 vs MS Visual Web Developer

          Here is the data

          If you are building a web app based on the built in DBF - then using the promo url that we have (it is in place till March 27th) - the cost for Alpha Five Pro and the Alpha Five App Server Basic edition is around $600

          If you are building an app ontop of SQl data then the costs are about $850 under the promo. You would need Alpha Five v8 Enterprise and the App Server Enterprise. If you want the promo URL please email [email protected]

          In addition if you are buying an upgrade the prices are lower.

          Our upgrade policy is outlined on our store page - but for convenience it is outlined here

          Do You Qualify For Upgrade Pricing?

          At Alpha Software, our upgrade policy is very simple.
          If you have purchased any Alpha Software database product in the past, you qualify for upgrade pricing on any Alpha Five Version 8 product � it�s that simple.
          In the past upgrade pricing required that you own the previous version of the equivalent Alpha Five product that you are upgrading. With Version 8, we have taken a very liberal approach and removed this restriction so that our existing customers can be rewarded for their loyalty with the substantial savings that are afforded by upgrade pricing vs. new user pricing.
          The only thing that we ask in return is that if you are a satisfied Alpha Five customer, please tell your friends and colleagues about it.
          Richard Rabins
          Co Chairman
          Alpha Software

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            #20
            Re: Alpha 5 V8 vs MS Visual Web Developer

            Don, that sounded rude. Alpha's forum has no tolerance for profanity, rudeness, and the like.

            If you have a question, post it, and some of the best people in town will take time to help you.
            Cole Custom Programming - Terrell, Texas
            972 524 8714
            [email protected]

            ____________________
            "A young man who is not liberal has no heart, but an old man who is not conservative has no mind." GB Shaw

            Comment


              #21
              Re: Alpha 5 V8 vs MS Visual Web Developer

              Originally posted by martinwcole View Post
              Don, that sounded rude. Alpha's forum has no tolerance for profanity, rudeness, and the like.

              If you have a question, post it, and some of the best people in town will take time to help you.
              I apologize, I didn't mean for it to sound rude? I was just trying to get the correct pricing. I had been quoted several different prices from several different people. Also, I did go ahead and purchase the Alpha 5 V8 Enterprise version product and have proceeded to try and learn how to build our web application.

              Again, I did not intend to be rude and if it was perceived in that manner, I apologize. Hopefully I have not offended anyone and can still receive the help that I will need.

              Thanks!

              Donm

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                #22
                Re: Alpha 5 V8 vs MS Visual Web Developer

                no problem
                Cole Custom Programming - Terrell, Texas
                972 524 8714
                [email protected]

                ____________________
                "A young man who is not liberal has no heart, but an old man who is not conservative has no mind." GB Shaw

                Comment


                  #23
                  Re: Alpha 5 V8 vs MS Visual Web Developer

                  there are now links on our blog to a recent webinar that was well received re building apps in alpha five that was hosted by selwyn

                  http://www.alphasoftware.blogspot.com/
                  Richard Rabins
                  Co Chairman
                  Alpha Software

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Re: Alpha 5 V8 vs MS Visual Web Developer

                    Originally posted by Steve Wood View Post
                    Terry (and anyone else),

                    You can get a good look at the new V8 Web development environment by attending my weekly webinar. Its at noon Pacific Time and you can connect via my website below - click Webinar in the upper right menu area. You can also find it at Alpha Software's website.

                    The next webinar is actually on March 28th because I will be out of town next week. If you go to my site and complete the contact information form, I will remind you (or anyone else who wants to attend).

                    I try to keep things loose and remain interactive with whoever attends; tailoring the session to your individual needs. Its not a dry lecture, every session is a little different.

                    I show several web V7 and V8 applications, and cover many of the new features in V8, including security. I don't gloss over the hard stuff. I try to present a logical progression from Login on through the rest of a typical web application.
                    Can you put me on the distribution list for your webinars?
                    Frank R

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Re: Alpha 5 V8 vs MS Visual Web Developer

                      Originally posted by terryh0416 View Post
                      I agree with that statement. To have one of the principals care that much about customer service does say a lot. I am also impressed with how actively they improve the product. It hasn't been that long since v7, and yet v8 has many more improvements. The samples are great, the forum is great...BUT...

                      I have been working for the same company for over 20 years. I am getting ready to leave (amicable) due to changes in the company, and I am seriously thinking about starting a consulting/programming business. With regards to using Alpha 5 for my primary development environment, the advantage in my opinion is productivity. This speaks for itself...I can develop applications for customers faster. When you are targeting SMBs, being able to provide an application to them as quickly as possible will save them money, bring their application online faster, and potentially make me valuable in their eyes compared to competitors. This is huge, but their are several disadvantages that bother me also...

                      1) Who is Alpha 5? Now, while I think that a lot of small business owners could care less who Alpha 5 is, there are many that believe that Microsoft is the one and only technology they should be using. I think it is probable that I will be limiting my market by going this direction. A friend pointed out to me that some of these people have been burned in the past by "proprietary" systems...the programmer is no longer around, so who do they go to for help?

                      2) I wonder how many programmers or consulting companies are really successful with using A5...I am trying to replace a decent income, and although I know there are many factors that go into running a successful company, I don't want A5 holding me back because of the perception in the marketplace. There aren't many A5 consultants in my area (NC Triad), which could be good, could be bad...

                      3) 3rd party enhancements- there aren't any that I can tell. I can't choose between several shopping carts for instance...I either have to develop them or use whatever I can find. This concerns me...

                      Anyway, I don't know how to answer these questions without jumping in and trying, but I haven't yet convinced myself to do it. Any comments about my above statements would be welcome, especially the feasibility of running a successful consulting/programming practice with A5. Don't get me wrong...I think A5 has done a great job with this product, and it will probably keep getting better pretty quickly, or at least that is my impression. And notice I didn't say anything about A5 going away. It seems to be getting stronger to me, but I don't think it's going to replace .Net anytime soon. OTOH, it doesn't necessarily need to.

                      Thanks for listening...

                      Terry
                      I know I am late to this discussion, but:

                      - Very well said

                      - I wish there was more dialog on this. I'm essentially in the same boat.
                      Frank R

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Re: Alpha 5 V8 vs MS Visual Web Developer

                        Originally posted by Richard Rabins View Post
                        That is an excellent question that has a very simple answer.
                        1. A5's own website and store could be built in Alpha Five!
                        2. Our web site was initially built BEFORE we had web capabilities built into Alpha Five. Each time we bring out a new version of Alpha Five - we ask ourselves "should we put development resources into making Alpha Five better/faster/easier/more powerful/more innovative or should we divert resources to the web site?" -- up until now we have always opted for improving Alpha Five and not redoing the web site underpinnings. I hope you agree that on balance, that is the right choice.

                        Thanks
                        Richard
                        This is something that really should change. You HAVE to demonstrate to the masses that you eat your own home cooking. Going through the exercise of 100% converting your website over to Alpha will also point out things you need to add to the product.

                        You're not Done with this product until you can generate your whole website, with ecommerce, without writing a single line of code.

                        :)

                        How's that for a challenge? With a few adds, I would put money on the fact that this product is up to it.

                        Frank R

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Re: Alpha 5 V8 vs MS Visual Web Developer

                          Originally posted by FrankR View Post
                          This is something that really should change. You HAVE to demonstrate to the masses that you eat your own home cooking.
                          Some parts of Alpha's website are on A5 WAS, but at the end of the day the big strength of A5 WAS lies in making databases accessible online, and why rewrite your whole website to use a database back end?

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Re: Alpha 5 V8 vs MS Visual Web Developer

                            You're not Done with this product until you can generate your whole website, with ecommerce, without writing a single line of code.
                            I don't really think that is an appropriate test. Robust applications will always have some code because there will always be something someone wants the application to do that does not fit the "Action Script/no code" model.

                            My bigger web applications are heavy on code and I like it that way. "Code" gets a bad wrap in these days of "point and click", but nothing is more flexible than code. And, where Alpha is mainly point-and-click, it can be a hell of a lot of pointing and clicking - a little code goes a long ways to alleviate index finger strain in those cases.

                            Code is going to be required for custom XML interfaces, javascript, HTTP post functions, CSS, encryption, making link parameter obscure, dealing with uploaded files, working with files outside of the document root, "special" security arrangements... just to name what I've been working on this afternoon. Those who intend to avoid at least some "code" will be building non-robust applications for quite a while.

                            I recall speaking to the folks at CASPIO about web development. They have a no-code, all wizard building model. I think Servoy is similar. But anyway, as we spoke I rattled off some of the common things I do with Alpha using at least some code. Caspio could not do any of it unless it was a very, very commonly needed module - something worth the effort for one of their engineers to create a no-code wizard. I passed them a typical customer specifiction and they "could do it" (they really could not) but kept trying to shove the clients needs in to their very narrow model. It's still a good model to take care of 80% of what corporate america wants in a web application. But it's not where professional and non-professional developers using Alpha will be at their best.

                            For both Desktop and Web, xbasic or "code" in general is not an Achilles heal for Alpha, it is the best thing it has going. And you can build stuff largely without code if you want.
                            Steve Wood
                            See my profile on IADN

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Re: Alpha 5 V8 vs MS Visual Web Developer

                              To date, no development tool I have used has even come Close to no code.
                              :)

                              It always sounds intriguing, but it usually ends about 4 hours into a project. :)

                              But, I Do think, from what I see, that:

                              1. Alpha goes a further distance than most tools in getting *custom* things done via Action Scripting.

                              2. This product, with more Action Scripting, Can achieve something very close to Codeless Apps for not all, but, a large percentage of projects.
                              Frank R

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Re: Alpha 5 V8 vs MS Visual Web Developer

                                Terry,

                                1) Who is Alpha 5? Now, while I think that a lot of small business owners could care less who Alpha 5 is, there are many that believe that Microsoft is the one and only technology they should be using. I think it is probable that I will be limiting my market by going this direction. A friend pointed out to me that some of these people have been burned in the past by "proprietary" systems...the programmer is no longer around, so who do they go to for help?
                                Sorry, I don't see this as being a hurdle. A small bit of salesmanship over comes easily.
                                1. You are building on a microsoft platform called windows. You are using Xbasic that originally came from Basic/dos which was developed by gates of microsoft.
                                2. Alpha is a gui for developement just like many others.
                                3. the other tools you wind up needing when using a micrsoft product(called addins) are generally not microsoft anyway.
                                4. If you use a micrsoft, Alpha or any other product and the developer of the end product goes away, it will take another developer a VERY long time just to figure out what the first on did.
                                5. In Alpha, it would take a minimum of a week to figure out what the previous developer did. Cal, Stan, Tom, Gabe would be perplexed at some of my stuff and I would be perplexed at theirs and cross that.
                                6. Alpha has been around a long time. Somewhere about 20 years now. I bought my first Product around 1991.

                                2) I wonder how many programmers or consulting companies are really successful with using A5...I am trying to replace a decent income, and although I know there are many factors that go into running a successful company, I don't want A5 holding me back because of the perception in the marketplace. There aren't many A5 consultants in my area (NC Triad), which could be good, could be bad...

                                I think there are more successful developers than you know. The biggest draw for consultants/programmers is the speed with which they can have a robust application into the users hands so the user can be productive. Updates can be even faster.

                                If I had a bid for a database program to be written in VB(this happened) and the issue was speed to startup, I would get them up and running in v5 first so they could do business, then develope the app in VB(as per the contract). No one else could compete with me because of the deadline. Customer was so happy with the first program, they relieved me of having to do the VB app. Yes, I made a few dollars less, but did not have to spend all the hours on VB.


                                .
                                Dave Mason
                                [email protected]
                                Skype is dave.mason46

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