Can Desktop apps be better than Web based?

[Mario Prieto]

Re: Can Desktop apps be better than Web based?

"Doesn't this eleminate your ability to design, structure, restucture tables, sets, field rules, validations, transformations, lookups etc?"
Answer: G gabriel, just have in mind that SQL is a far more rich language to deal with databases. I can't think of something you can do with .dbf that you cannot do with SQL. I also can think of many advantages of backend databases that .dbf tables don't have (record locking, etc). Most SQL databases have triggers, constrains, etc. that allows you to do the same as field rules.

"You might say, I am switching to MYSQL. Then, why bother buy alpha? You don't need to buy alpha to get your users to your MYSQL."
I use Alpha because I am well versed in Xdialog and the many data manipulation functions. Alpha is not just .dbf tables. Alpha is a programming language that allows you to create front end applications with ease. Why should I learn another programming language to create front end applications?
I would like Alpha to concentrate in improving their XDialog programming, that way we can do much better and well design front end applications. If you see my application I have to use buttons as columns to be able to sort the data. The reason is I cannot create an xdialog from an array or preformatted list that includes columns (or at least I don't know how). I know you can do it with a KL or KE, but those require a .dbf

"By buying alpha, then eleminating alpha's dbf tables, you reduced alpha to a middle man between the users and the SQL tables. If that's satisfactory, so be it."
Yes,and being the middle man is a good thing for Alpha. Their XBasic language is easy to learn and has a large amount of functions. I don't think Alpha can continue to make a profit much longer if they continue to support .dbf tables only. Nowdays, everything runs in backend database servers and .dbf tables have reached the end of life (in my opinion), except for small applications. Just look around and you will see that everything is either web based or connecting to a backend database. Whoever comes with an easy language to create front end applications will make a huge profit. Alpha has the potential only if they invest in turning forms table independent and increase the capabilities of Xdialog. I still find Xdialog and Xbasic an easier language to learn then Ruby, Python, C++, or even Visual Basic.

[Mario Prieto]

Re: Can Desktop apps be better than Web based?

This is a reply for Martin Cole that asked how I used transfer .dbf data into MySql or MS SQL.

Martin, the application contains 2 .dbf tables that has some settings needed to be able to login.
1) Main.dbf table--> this table contains the name of the agency and the version number.
2)Ipaddresses.dbf. This table contains the different ip addresses that you see in the login screen.

The rest of the application is all Xdialog retriving and saving data to the backend database. Thanks to AlphaDAO that allows me to save and retrieve data.

By the way, guys I will take out the login account this afternoon because I will be in the process of changing to MySQL.

[DaveM]

Re: Can Desktop apps be better than Web based?

Isn't this a way to circumvent Alpha Software from making money on their user runtimes? If so, I could see them working very hard to take care of this breach. I would imagine a very rapid fix to the 3 user( or ) to take care of their potential loss in revenue. And so it should be!

Dave Mason

[John Hertzler]

Re: Can Desktop apps be better than Web based?

If you get the speed increase you spoke about, it would be nice to have another peak when you are done with the changeover.

[confused]

Re: Can Desktop apps be better than Web based?

Isn't this a way to circumvent Alpha Software from making money on their user runtimes? If so, I could see them working very hard to take care of this breach. I would imagine a very rapid fix to the 3 user( or ) to take care of their potential loss in revenue. And so it should be!

Dave Mason

Correct. I'm sure Alpha has already thought of this and when they finally achieve a pure client/server environment they will need to charge on cpu/named user licenses like all the other client/server development apps.

[martinwcole]

Re: Can Desktop apps be better than Web based?

Mario - say you have an alpha adb on your loval computer - aand have been using it for several years.

But you now want to convert all the dbf table to mysql or whatever, so you can put the data out on the server, and use it via your new approach.

How do you convert the dbf data to sql?

[martinwcole]

Re: Can Desktop apps be better than Web based?

Dave - the 3 user is not the issue
currently he can install any version of the runtime on an infinite number of computers - but there can only be the number of users concurrently using the same app on one computer or lan as per the license count. But the way Mario is using it, that same app could be run from an infinte number of locations, concurrently.

I've thought for a long time that the way Alpha prices and uses their runtime is not fair to them. If I were them, I would have a scheme that kept track of the original purchaser and sites where installed and used - in other words, an activation for the runtime. This would let them catch fradulent use of the Runtime. Or else I would have a fee for the users that the local user would have to pay if they were not the original purchaser.

[G Gabriel]

Re: Can Desktop apps be better than Web based?

I did mention earlier, in passing, copyright violations. Make sure, one of your users is not one of Richard's nephews!

It is no doubt a copyright violations.

This whole thing though is an age-old dilemma:
You are dating a beautiful woman (alpha). She is not MS Universe, but, attractive enough. The relationship is not perfect, but like many other couples, you have your moments. But, you know her ways, she knows yours and you got to be comfortable together.

Your girl friend (alpha) wanted to cement the relationship, so she invited you to a dinner at her house and when you got there, she introduced you to her roommate (SQL), who in your beholding eyes was a bomb shell.
Now you got a dilemma:
a-Do you stay with alpha, marry her and have children and stability, or
b-Do you stay with alpha and have an affair with her roommate and play the field and try to maintain that balance, or
c-Do you divorce alpha, go out with her roommate and take a chance on her since you have to learn her ways and you don't know how that will work out.

Hmmmmmmm??
Makes you wonder if alpha regrets introducing you to her roommate and if you ever wanted to meet her.

But alpha knew, sooner or later, you will find about her roommate, so, she might as well be the one to introduce you. It's a gamble, but at least it might keep you to her side.

I am amazed that some people act like they have just discovered something, called the INTERNET!

Alpha prides itself as being an easy way to write online-based databases and if you compare it to many others, it is.

Before v8 came out, many criticized alpha for working more on the web-based side as opposed to the desktop. Not me. I thought they are doing the right thing. Alpha knows that they have no future if they have no good web-based program, so does Bill Gates.

If you are not satisfied with alpha's WAS and wish to go with other programming languages, that's fine. It all depends on your needs. Not every website nor every company in the universe uses alpha for online or network DB.

[G Gabriel]

Re: Can Desktop apps be better than Web based?

Martin:

How do you convert the dbf data to sql?

You could find more details on MYSQL website or by calling them.

[Mario Prieto]

Re: Can Desktop apps be better than Web based?

Actually the conversion is very simple.
1) convert your .dbf records to CSV format
2)use the LOAD DATA INFILE MySql command. Or there are many utilities on the web that allows you to do the conversion from CSV to MYSql.

Or spend $47 devaluated dollars and buy a gui utility that will do it straight from .dbf to MySQL
http://www.sqlmanager.net/en/products/mysql/dataimport

[Doug Page]

Re: Can Desktop apps be better than Web based?

I guess as long as your DB was not mission critical you could play a game like this. I always tend to worry about what would happen if I had no connection for 1 hour, 1 day, 1 week, etc. It was not that long ago that there was a major internet power outage that knocked part of the world out for over a week and caused the rest of the net to crawl for a while. I believe even one of the members here had his server out for many days. Maybe a small business could deal with this kind of outage, but bigger ones won't!

[Peter.Greulich]

Re: Can Desktop apps be better than Web based?

I always tend to worry about what would happen if I had no connection for 1 hour, 1 day, 1 week, etc...

...Maybe a small business could deal with this kind of outage, but bigger ones won't!

Doug,

You hit the nail on the head! If Dick Cheney decides to shut down the internet tomorrow :D, there's nothing much anyone can do about it. Katrina wiped out New Orleans - no electricity, period. I guess the question is, how stable is the internet vs. basic electricity? We assume that we will always have electric power, but who knows? So, is the internet really much less predictable that e-power? Maybe. But Google doesn't seem to think so. Neither do the FEDs. If you do online banking w. the Feds for T-Bills and such, they state that they are moving all their transaction to the web (of course, that doesn't prove anything since we have an 8-trillion dollar [and growing] national debt ).

Take your chances...

[Doug Page]

Re: Can Desktop apps be better than Web based?

I don't see anything wrong with IP connections - local or remote. I just believe that it is important to be able to have data available and a somewhat usable system should connections be disconnected. That would imply a local database with posting to the remote. This way things could work in real time across the remote connection, but can also continue during blackouts. That is how the organizations like the government will implement. As for Google, I don't think they have been any too pleased with their online apps. When one can download Open Office for free, why use a remote IP based solution?

[Peter.Greulich]

Re: Can Desktop apps be better than Web based?

As for Google, I don't think they have been any too pleased with their online apps. When one can download Open Office for free, why use a remote IP based solution?

Portability. But I agree, Google's OnLine apps are bare bones at best. But they will get better. And I actually use their online spreadsheet for simple stuff. Anything more complex gets built in Alpha.

[neil_albala]

Re: Can Desktop apps be better than Web based?

I've been considering this desktop-app-using-remote-data concept for a while. It's very exciting to think that we could build desktop applications which could support not only an unlimited number of users, but fast data access, using low cost remote mySQL hosts.

The idea of creating some kind of community or informational application in the A5 environment, and then having tens of thousands of users is very appealing...

BUT... this could be just a loophole in their current licensing policy. Since A5 has write accesses permissions, it would be very easy for Selwyn to add some logic, that would write a control file which would "restrict" or control access that remote database.

I certainly can't start such a project, until there's some official word-- as to whether or not such applications will be encouraged and supported.

I'd hate to have 10,000 registered users, who signed up for a FREE account, only to find that my runtime license was going to suddenly cost me 10k a year in upgrades. I've written about this before.

My suggestion to Selwyn was to use some kind of "domain specific" licensing, which would give A5 developers: 1- the leverage of unlimited users, as web hosts always offer, 2- protect alpha software from inappropriate runtimes being passed around, and 3- give them a competitive advantage in the market place.