Would you please stop loving these tabbed objects?!

[G Gabriel]

Re: Would you please stop loving these tabbed objects?!

I seem to a remember a post by someone who had troubles with tabbed

I think Tom Cone might have asked a couple of years ago about an alternative to tabbed object.

[G Gabriel]

Re: Would you please stop loving these tabbed objects?!

While were are at it, I spent an hour trying to find a nice looking telephone icon! I couldn't find any in alpha, and had to make this ugly looking one for now.

[MikeC]

Re: Would you please stop loving these tabbed objects?!

Gabriel,

I tried very hard to come up with one good reason to use a tabbed object, and couldn't come up with any. Can you?

I have one good reason..although I realize that you most likely will not think it so!! :)

Having used an application with tabbed forms everywhere I agree that most of them could be replaced with buttons, lookups, what-have-you...but

the one tabbed style I do like and believe it makes my forms more user friendly (meaning easier to understand and less mouse-clicking or keyboarding), are the ones that simply use the tabs for various sorting needs--the most common ones. (used to sort an embedded browse).

I know sorting can be done many, many ways but most involve a two or more step process whereas tabs is a single one....and YES a single step vs two or more IS more user friendly!!! My current business software has several areas in which multiple steps are used to access various aspects of a process---it not only drives me nuts after the 10th time having to do these steps (especially when my replacement App will do most of them in ONE step) it also takes up valuable time--a few minutes saved in many businesses can really add up in a very short time period.

Of course separate buttons could also be used for these sorting needs---but isn't that basically what tabs are to people when they look at them? (I know they are not). Tabs are just simpler to use and sometimes more intuitive for some simple things.

[G Gabriel]

Re: Would you please stop loving these tabbed objects?!

I am not really sure what do you mean by using tabbed object for sorting?
and no, tabs and buttons are not the same: tabbed object is loaded, each page with a bunch of fields that you may or may not even look at each time you open the form. The biggest drawback for tabbed objects is you are loading so many fields in memory and you may or may not even use them and most cerainly, not all of them at the same time. Why not call the fields you need when you need them and when you are done with them, close them down and keep your memory free?

[MikeC]

Re: Would you please stop loving these tabbed objects?!

Hi,

Look at the screenshot and you should see what I mean by "Tab Sorting"--each tab has the identical browse but sorted differently....I know...How inefficient!! But sometimes to make something more user friendly I feel certain things should be done even though they might be redundant, inefficient, or sometimes just incredibly hard to achieve.

And agree totally with what you have said but nonetheless will still sometimes do things contrary for the reasons already stated! :)

[G Gabriel]

Re: Would you please stop loving these tabbed objects?!

Now, compare that with the "Sorting" that you could do as in the screenshots I attached!

Your form, has 3 browses? how many fields are these and how many records? and how many calc fields? That's a lot to load in memory, isn't it?!

Again, I am not saying there is anything wrong with that. You could ride a mule to work if you want to. You have to get up at 3 in the morning though!

I strive for the best, the simplest, the cleanest and when I achieve that, I start looking for something even better. Tabbed object, is not even on the list anymore, and hasn't been for quite sometime.

I am only offering some thoughts to those who are in the process of building or re-doing their applications, to think of better alternatives.

[Raymond Lyons]

Re: Would you please stop loving these tabbed objects?!

OK, I'll bite too:

One not so great reason but a reason nonetheless is that some users like tabbed objects as opposed to buttons opening new forms. Some would say tabs simply look better, more professional or whatever.

One other reason might be this: Say you want a screen, the top half or so being basically "header" data that all users need to see at all times. The bottom half can either be a tabbed object with, say, 4 tabs or alternatively 4 forms that open/become visible with the press of a button on the header form and where all the tab/bottom form data is related to the header data either by being in the same table or in a set. This is easy to do with a tabbed object. Using forms that open would seem to present problems that do not seem easy to deal with (did not say it can't be done): Getting all the various forms to open at just the right location, not allowing them to be moved, getting all of them to page (next/previous) in sync even when they may all be based on one file or one set, and finally when interaction (e.g., validation) is need between fields on the header and other forms, it is at the very least a bit more difficult. I did try switching from tabs to buttons and forms on one app not long ago and for these and other reasons I do not remember right now, I gave it up and went back to tabbed objects for the lower half of the screen. But then I am not the super genius with this stuff that some of you may be.

Finally, one more place where it would seem that a tabbed object is pretty harmless: A main menu operating off of a dummy table with, say, separate tabs for forms, letters, reports, maintenance operations and so on. Just makes for neat organization and is easy to setup and deal with. Yes, you could do it all some other way but this seems like a pretty good and harmless role for a tabbed object.

Don't get me wrong: I am not an advocate for tabbed objects, don't use them willy nilly and and welcome ideas for better, less troublesome alternatives. But I also don't think they are always quite as awful as some seem to think.

Ray

[G Gabriel]

Re: Would you please stop loving these tabbed objects?!

MikeC:
By the way, you don't need to put a tabbed object and 3 browses to sort them differently: you could get rid of the TO and the other 2 browses and just use buttons in the title to sort any and every column Ascending or Descending. You will have more functionality, it will look better, perform better and lighten the load on your memory.

[G Gabriel]

Re: Would you please stop loving these tabbed objects?!

Some would say tabs simply look better

Yeh.. it's that love thing again. Incidentally, you could make your buttons look like tabs if you love them so much.

Getting all the various forms to open at just the right location, not allowing them to be moved, getting all of them to page (next/previous) in sync even when they may all be based on one file or one set, and finally when interaction (e.g., validation) is need between fields on the header and other forms, it is at the very least a bit more difficult

Actually, this is as easy as ABC: lock the locations of the forms.
By the way, I mentioned before, I don't use much of that anymore. I prefer the look and behavior of a web page, a smart web page, something like for example a shopping cart web page: you have all the items you selected, then if you want to update the price to include the shipping, only that part of the page will change, same if you want add or remove an item or add taxes etc.

[Phil Rolf]

Re: Would you please stop loving these tabbed objects?!

I am with Ray, he quoted

the top half or so being basically "header" data that all users need to see at all times.

I used to have the accounting system setup with different forms. It was a BIG HASSLE waiting for the change of forms, I changed to the the tabbed objects and we have fallen in love with them, the info on the tabs displays much much faster than changing forms.

Example, for an invoice, the top is constant (as Ray mentioned) I have 7 tabs for that invoice which includes invoicing info, shipping info, items ordered, accts receivable, invoice adjustments, scaled down permanent customer info....etc. When a customer calls we have all the info at our finger tips. I personnally, will not go back to multiple forms for my application....

my 2 cents worth.....

[MikeC]

Re: Would you please stop loving these tabbed objects?!

G,

I can see how it can be done without using tabs...and in the future may very well use the alternate method most of the time if for no other reason of the maintenance issues involved with tabbed objects. But you have to realize that when us novices find something that is intuitive and fairly simple to set up (a tabbed form) compared to other methods that is what will be used! That and the fact I simply modeled my first application after software I am currently using---which has more tabbed objects than even I ended up using--got rid of 5 at least.

I can see Ray's point absolutely--I don't care if it can be done other ways. I feel it is much simpler to do what he described with Tabs (maybe this will change once I know more??)....the only reason for not doing so is if it truely does make a significant impact on memory (and does it??? you sounded not so sure when stating this.)

Gabriel, you have to try to consider something when taking a stand such as this---the abilities of your audience is not always even close to your own...what may seem easy and intuitive to you is not for many novices. As a result the "easy" way out will be taken and should not be considered wrong or bad simply because of inefficiencies so long as it works. I do appreciate learning about alternate methods and will use them but only after I become more proficient.....hopefully that day is not that far off but until then I think Tabbed Objects will still be a part of my applicatons! There....another reason for using Tabbed objects!! LOL :)

[Ronald Anusiewicz]

Re: Would you please stop loving these tabbed objects?!

Gabriel,

I really like what you did. I'm not really very fond of tabs either, but until I see something else, I use what I know.

This looks like the makings of an excellent article for the newsletter, "Alternative to Tabbed Forms". Or maybe you could put a working example into the code archive.

Ron

[G Gabriel]

Re: Would you please stop loving these tabbed objects?!

MikeC:
I hear you..
My 90 years old neigbor up until few years ago was still driving his 30 years old MG. (I think it's MG, it's something that looks like a car anyway..).

He is not driving now because he's no longer mentally competent, but if he were, I suspect he would still be driving the same car.

The sad part is, his grand son is driving it now!
Some things must be hereiditary!

[G Gabriel]

Re: Would you please stop loving these tabbed objects?!

Ron:
I wish it would be something you could put in the code archive, but it really isn't a code. It's a matter of using tools other than the basic bread & butter to present the information in a more visually appealing format.
I hate clutter. That's just me. I get dizzy looking at a form that has so much stuff, you don't know where to start.

[Tom Cone Jr]

Re: Would you please stop loving these tabbed objects?!

My two cents.

I like using the tabbed object in a form used to display information to the user. It's intuitive (if designed properly) and easy for them to learn. However, I've found it very difficult to use these controls on forms used for data entry. Unless I spend a lot of time building in safeguards, I find that the users will bounce from tab to tab leaving unsaved and incomplete record "fragments" in their path. Since Alpha is a table based system, I know the records need to be saved into separate tables, but the user thinks the entire form, including all tabbed pages, is a single record that can be saved to disk with a single button push. They are surprised when Alpha commits a record to disk sometimes, and confused when it doesn't in others. Using popup data entry forms that are table based is often a good solution. You must choose between competing priorities as you develop your design, since the objectives are: intuitive interface for the user, speedy data entry, rock solid data integrity. The controls you use for your app will / should vary depending upon the needs of the customer and the setting in which the database will be used. If I were designing an app for a high volume call center my data entry controls and the interface presented to the user would be very different, for example, than if I were designing an app to maintain a membership list for club or church.