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A5 on Terminal Server?

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    A5 on Terminal Server?

    Hello A5 group,

    I have a potential client that has a terminal server which users access via VPN. Their data is sensitive, they would rather not use the web.

    Does anyone know how A5v8 would perform in this environment? I realize I would need the R/T. Not sure how to set this up. It seems to me that it could be a good setup, ( no data over the network ) with A5 installed on the terminal server.

    Comments are welcome as always

    #2
    Re: A5 on Terminal Server?

    Bill

    There have been several threads on this. You might try looking at the links at the bottom of the page or searching the board for "terminal server". I will be installing my app on Terminal Server soon so I do not have any first hand experience. But from the talks I have had with others and reading on the board - make sure you have lots-o-memory and processor speed. Alpha cannot use more than one processor currently however. Also, it seems the sweet spot for many as far as performance has been in the 12-15 user range. After that, many have reported big performance degradation. I am sure this is dependent on how active the app is and how complex it is though.

    Hope that helps some.

    Regards,

    Jeff

    Comment


      #3
      Re: A5 on Terminal Server?

      The performance of Alpha under terminal services is closely linked to a combination of factors:

      (1) Server hardware - single processor, multi-processor
      (2) Server OS
      (3) Version of Alpha
      (4) Complexity of the application
      (4) Maximum number of anticipated concurrent Alpha sessions

      Assuming that you are running Server 2003 and A5V8 then you could aspire to a maximum of 8 - 10 users per processor in a multi-processor server with adeguate (2 gigs - 4 gigs) memory and fast hard drives.

      I have to say that this is purely speculation on my part based on some testing we have done with Server2003/A5V8 and some knowledge of what others have done/attempted to do with different combinations. I hope that someone who is actually running the Server 2003/A5V8 combination in a production environment jumps in with some specific information about their experience.

      If all they have is a few (say fewer than five) users that would be assessing concurrently, then I would think that it's a no-brainer. It's relatively easy to set up and extremely easy to administer.
      Finian

      Comment


        #4
        Re: A5 on Terminal Server?

        Thanks Jeff & Finian for your replies.

        They could have upwards of 30 concurrent users. I'm getting the idea that we may need more than 1 server. The Server is running 2003 and we would be running a5v8.

        Jeff, I did a search and found the threads you referenced. Thanks.

        Comment


          #5
          Re: A5 on Terminal Server?

          Finian

          When you say:

          Maximum number of anticipated concurrent Alpha sessions
          From your experience - is this for people "actively" using the app or does it also include those that just bring up the app and minimize it...occasionally getting in to check things?

          and also when you say

          Complexity of the application
          Can you give any hints as to what you have seen. Is it number of tables and total data size or number of forms. Both perhaps? My application currently contains approx 65 tables. Several (approx 15) though are quite small and just serve as lookups.

          Regards,

          Jeff

          Comment


            #6
            Re: A5 on Terminal Server?

            Bill:

            It's not beyond the realm of possibility that they could handle 30 users on one server if - and it's a big if - there is a close to linear connection between the number of sessions that can be handled by each processor. V6, V7 and V8 are single threaded and each Alpha session is "attached" to a single processor. Only V8 can be attached to the second and more of a multi-processor server, hence the hoped-for higher number of users under V8. So, again very theoretically, V8 could possibly handle 30+ concurrent users on a quad processor machine. We can handle 25 - 30 V5 sessions on dual processor servers under NT/Citrix but the performance is a little slower at that level and V8 is a considerably "bigger" program than V5.

            Jeff, our application is big by any measure and it's the only gauge I have to evaluate performance. I would guess that, if there are adequate resources available on the server, most importantly enough RAM, then the complexity of the application is not that important. By itself, A5 has a big footprint and I don't think that the application being run adds measurably to that.
            Finian

            Comment


              #7
              Re: A5 on Terminal Server?

              Originally posted by jkletrovets View Post
              does it also include those that just bring up the app and minimize it...occasionally getting in to check things?
              Yes.
              Al Buchholz
              Bookwood Systems, LTD
              Weekly QReportBuilder Webinars Thursday 1 pm CST

              Occam's Razor - KISS
              Normalize till it hurts - De-normalize till it works.
              Advice offered and questions asked in the spirit of learning how to fish is better than someone giving you a fish.
              When we triage a problem it is much easier to read sample systems than to read a mind.
              "Make it as simple as possible, but not simpler."
              Albert Einstein

              http://www.iadn.com/images/media/iadn_member.png

              Comment


                #8
                Re: A5 on Terminal Server?

                Been using it since January 2007. Speed is way better then before when we were file server & client. We are using up to 10 all working at same moment some times & do not notice slowdown. Only using 1 of the 4 processors at the moment. Have 4GB of ram. Really need to add some more from looking at the log & seeing some times it gets close & getting error messages. Using rad5 & 4 harddrives. There are some minor glitches with A5 & TS. I have done bug reports. I guess not a lot of people use TS so they have not fixed problems yet. Just minor screen update problems & extra info on screen.

                I would do this again in a heart beat. There is only 1 computer I have to fix problems in or updates. Way better then before. I have not found a down side yet.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: A5 on Terminal Server?

                  Jack

                  I'm guessing that you are using version 8? Just want to verify...

                  There is a whole class of servers (or 2) that are larger than what you are talking about. My guess (and the large sites that I've talked to) say get the horsepower in the server running A5. It's well worth it.

                  Given the low cost of hardware, don't get just enough - get more than enough. (It may solve some of the 'bugs' that you are seeing too...)
                  Al Buchholz
                  Bookwood Systems, LTD
                  Weekly QReportBuilder Webinars Thursday 1 pm CST

                  Occam's Razor - KISS
                  Normalize till it hurts - De-normalize till it works.
                  Advice offered and questions asked in the spirit of learning how to fish is better than someone giving you a fish.
                  When we triage a problem it is much easier to read sample systems than to read a mind.
                  "Make it as simple as possible, but not simpler."
                  Albert Einstein

                  http://www.iadn.com/images/media/iadn_member.png

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: A5 on Terminal Server?

                    When you say that you're "using just one processor" at the moment, I infer that you are using V6 or V7.

                    If you are using V8 shouldn't you be taking advantage of the SelectBestProcessor(), or one of the other processor options, that would automatically spread the load around among the four processors and should - even with the light load of 10 users - give you better performance?
                    Finian

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: A5 on Terminal Server?

                      Thanks for all the replies. Learning a lot about a5 and TS

                      Bill

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: A5 on Terminal Server?

                        Originally posted by Al Buchholz View Post
                        Jack

                        I'm guessing that you are using version 8?

                        There is a whole class of servers (or 2) that are larger than what you are talking about. My guess (and the large sites that I've talked to) say get the horsepower in the server running A5. It's well worth it.

                        Given the low cost of hardware, don't get just enough - get more than enough. (It may solve some of the 'bugs' that you are seeing too...)
                        Yes Version 8

                        The server is a big bad one. It is a Dell & weighs in at around 160 lbs. Just little short on memory

                        Bugs are just screen related problems. Not data problems. Have same screen problems if I am the only one on or if everyone is on. Must have something to do with 2003 x64 server OS system since does not show up when running from xp. I never thought to check to see if I get the same screen problems running the program from the server with monitor attached to the server. I will have to check to see it it is only a TS problem or just a complete 2003 x64 server problem.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: A5 on Terminal Server?

                          Originally posted by Finian Lennon View Post
                          When you say that you're "using just one processor" at the moment, I infer that you are using V6 or V7.

                          If you are using V8 shouldn't you be taking advantage of the SelectBestProcessor(), or one of the other processor options, that would automatically spread the load around among the four processors and should - even with the light load of 10 users - give you better performance?
                          Using V8.

                          Have not had a speed problem yet so have not taken the time to figure out how to get V8 to work on multi processors. Unless it works on multi processors on it's own. Everthing is almost instant all the time as it is now.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: A5 on Terminal Server?

                            Bill,

                            Just to balance and point out what I've found to be the "downside" of TS.

                            1) Screen resolution is not quite as good on workstations as file server/client.

                            2) Setting up multiple printers from different workstations has to be handled thru TS, I'm not sure how flexible and easy this is to do. Maybe some others can fill us in...

                            3) If, for some reason, your app 'locks up,' the workstation user can't simply invoke the Task Manager to close A5. An administrator has close the session from within TS.

                            Bob Arbuthnot

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: A5 on Terminal Server?

                              Originally posted by Bob Arbuthnot View Post
                              Bill,
                              1) Screen resolution is not quite as good on workstations as file server/client.

                              2) Setting up multiple printers from different workstations has to be handled thru TS, I'm not sure how flexible and easy this is to do. Maybe some others can fill us in...

                              3) If, for some reason, your app 'locks up,' the workstation user can't simply invoke the Task Manager to close A5. An administrator has close the session from within TS.

                              I have had to set my TS A5 session with a different title so I would know when I was working in TS or on my computer. There are setting to set screen resolution to what you want or need. When I work from home or office I can not tell the difference where I am working from.

                              We have about 7 printers set up for different areas. Each user can have a different printer.

                              Any person can use task manager if set up to allow the person to use it to shut down any program they have open that has stopped for them. I have had a few times where the user had to shut down that way and so far have not had any side effects.

                              Sorry to sound like a TS cheerleader. The only downside I have found so far is I can not get groupwise email to work in a TS session. I am thinking the problem is I have not found the correct settings to be able to do it.

                              Comment

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