What's good about the WAS and what's not so good ...

[drgarytraub]

In all due respect, I am always truly amazed at what I can quickly and easily do with Alpha products. My hat goes off to the team at Alpha for this.

However, I do have a serious complaint (hopefully I will not offend anyone). While I can quickly design most of an application and have most of it functioning very quickly, it is the small but very essential stuff that takes me hours, sometimes weeks, months, or never to figure out. In my opinion, the documentation is woefully inadequate in a practical sense. By that I mean, it is so volumnious that it really cannot be printed out and studied, and the all too often issue is that even with all those pages, the answer just cannot be found. I am then left with having to go to the message board, to hopefully find an answer. The members of the message board are rather generous in offering their help and time (though again hoping not to offend, the WAS v 8 board seems to have very little activity or response in comparision to the message board of the desktop versions), but I do not think it is fair to put the burden on other message board users. Many issues come up that do not get resolved, and I do not think this should be on the shoulders of the member community. Alpha needs to do something about it's documentation and in a hurry! I also think that given the years of support we as the member community have given, I think it is time that Alpha starts monitoring the boards on a very regular basis (like daily, if not 24/7), and starts answering questions that cannot be resolved by other members after at most a day or two of trying (if not much sooner). These issues should be responded to by Alpha promptly and with references of where in the help we can find the answers, or letting us know that a new entry has been placed in the help to clarify and explain the issue.

Without that serious committment from Alpha, I find using the WAS too frustrating, and if I feel that way, perhaps others do too.

Again, I hope I have not offended anyone, but these are my thoughts, and are offered here in hopes of improving the Alpha experience.

Gary

[michaelwpayton]

Re: What's good about the WAS and what's not so good ...

it is the small but very essential stuff that takes me hours, sometimes weeks, months, or never to figure out. Gary

Could you please provide a couple of examples of the "essential stuff that takes you hours..." that you are referring to in your post?

[drgarytraub]

Re: What's good about the WAS and what's not so good ...

Hi Michael,

If the essentail stuff just took me hours, I would be ecstatic. It's the stuff that takes hours and hours, months, never - whatever.

There are many examples, but the most recent one of my posts is about filtered lookups. I consider that "essential" and as of now, no one has an answer ...

By the way, all I am saying is either Alpha should make a much more useable manual for the WAS and/or give lots more help on the message board ...

Gary

[EricN]

Re: What's good about the WAS and what's not so good ...

I concur. I have been an Alpha user since version one some 20 years ago. I respect Alpha and believe it is a great product. However, as mentioned above, I feel there is a great (urgent) need to improve the help �manual� and to have more message board participation.

The user message board community (Alpha customers) has helped me a lot over the past few days. Mainly thanks to Steve Wood I have been able to get answers. But I do have a couple of posts that have gone unanswered. Several times I read on other posts, �read up on the topic� or the complete answer isn�t given or explained. I understand that the goal is for the �newbie� to learn the program: the syntax, where to place the syntax, etc. It is important, but, sometimes for a �newbie,� giving the complete answer in detail is all he/she needs to gain that confidence to move on to the next part of the project, complete the project and ultimately continue to be an Alpha customer.

Many times I have considered giving up. But I have pursued and learned a great deal. A lot has been trial and error. But so far I am succeeding.

I do believe it is important for Alpha to again monitor this board much more frequently and participate in providing answers and direction.

Again, big thank you to those users �gurus� who have helped us newbies get off the ground. You have been a tremendous help!

[Fulltimer]

Re: What's good about the WAS and what's not so good ...

For those of you who are brave enough to honestly voice your opinions, I applaud you. I have similar complaints about the documentation and the clear lack of being assured that a serious issue would ever be resolved.

That is a frightening position to be in when you are committing your professional reputation on the products you produce. One could spend months working on a project only to be stumped near the "end" of the project by a feature that can not be implemented and this lack of completion can "taint" the whole product.

I think that we who are willing to speak out are people who really want Alpha to work out. We are not Alpha haters or over complainers. In many cases we are probably some of Alpha's strongest believers.

For those who fear "the wrath of God" for speaking out only contribute to the problem. Any company can convince itself that "all is well" because they get so "few" complaints. If more people speak up and do it consistenly, then maybe the company will take notice and "fix" the problem.

Anyone using A5, from novice to guru knows for a fact that A5's help system is next to useless. We also know that were it not for a few A5 guru's who contribute to this forum, a lot of us would be flat out left in the cold. Personally I would have had to dump the product after two weeks of use. I've gained some expertise in a number of different computer languages and in no other platform have I spent so much time on trying to make a specific function work in the manner it was intended. I also get very frustrated in a component that worked five minutes ago, suddenly stops working in the same manner.

Let's get some more voices to be heard. If you love A5 and want to fully support it in your future, then speak out. Being quiet doesn't help at all!!!

[Steve Wood]

Re: What's good about the WAS and what's not so good ...

So, would you say that using and 'contributing' on the forum is enabling this attitude (as described in this thread) because all of the complaining is played out here, rather than directed there, at Alpha. As a major contributor, this has been on my mind. That is, I sometimes think about stopping.

[MikeC]

Re: What's good about the WAS and what's not so good ...

Steve (and all),

I am hoping that it does not come to that--contributors suddenly boycotting the forum... it would cause a great deal of problems for many reasons. I am sure that all contributors realize that they are a very valuable resource and that they themselves also benefit immensely by the associations they develope amongst each other.

It is too bad Alpha does not consider this aspect as much as I feel they should. They have "said" so, but that is about the extent of it as far as I know...almost meaningless without some action behind it such as fixing some long time issues that most here have "wished" for in one way or another, help files only being one of them. Without the contributors here on this forum, I think Alpha's sales and reputation would plummet. If a boycott actually came about I can imagine at least 25% of new people would quit Alpha simply , if for no other reason, they could no longer continue or finish their projects without hiring someone to do it (in addition to those that quit now due to whatever reasons). And I am not talking about all contributors boycotting--if just the 15-20 who frequent the forum almost daily did.

I am not advocating this by no means!! I truly would hate to see this happen and am hoping that Alpha will SOON come to see how disgruntled many people are and that some things should be attended to immediately.

[michaelwpayton]

Re: What's good about the WAS and what's not so good ...

Please excuse my ignorance, but I�m having a hard time understanding what, �exactly,� the problem is with the documentation, help, support, etc. Don�t get me wrong, all/any level of documentation, help and support can be enhanced� but what exactly are �we� looking for? For example;

Is the documentation/help incomplete? If so, what functions/features are not currently documented? Have the problems been reported to Alpha and they have refused to correct the situation?

Is the documentation/help incorrect? If so, have the problems been reported to Alpha and they have refused to correct the situation?

Is the documentation not formatted in such a way as to enable it to effective? If so, in what way would you like to see it formatted?

Are you looking for more examples, samples, �step-by-step guides, etc?� If so, like what, and would the things you are interested in seeing be of value to all� or are they specific to your exact, unique, requirement?

Would you like to see Alpha offer/provide some sort of �paid support?� If so, what would you be willing to pay and how would you propose it be delivered?

I think this kind of discussion can be very healthy� but I�m really not understanding exactly what the problems are, and therefore, for me at least, it�s very hard to consider what the viable solutions may be.

[Steve Wood]

Re: What's good about the WAS and what's not so good ...

I can answer this with some detail, but it will be later this weekend or Monday. I'm sure many others can comment too.

[MikeC]

Re: What's good about the WAS and what's not so good ...

Hi Mike,

I am by no means an authority on this but having read so many posts regarding the help file and documentation needs/problems, I think I can answer some of your questions.

The help file has not been updated since about January of this year and many functions, corrections, and additional documentations have been made since that time.

As Steve pointed out there is NO documentation on some features at all--and this is not just on the web side, although mostly there I believe.

Examples are needed in most instances to especially aid newbies--quite a few exmples have been created by users of this forum so maybe that is going to have to be the route to take to get these incorporated into the help.

Up until just very recently many people wanted a printable help file---and Alpha did come through with this after considerable time.

More cross referencing is needed in the help although this would be probably the most difficult (time consuming) of all to do.

Truthfully, I am very surprised that Alpha doesn't attend to these needs a bit more considering how INCREDIBLY they respond to virtually everything else such as bugs reported or functions that do not work, etc.

Regardless of what happens with the help/documentation I, for one, think overall Alpha is a great company and this community is absolutely the best one could hope for. We just want to make it even better is all!!

[DaveM]

Re: What's good about the WAS and what's not so good ...

I concur with mike. Would hate to EVER see the loss of Steve Wood and others that contribute so much here.

Let me just say this:

I came from clipper and way back when, we got our little user manual with all the available functions and I was still an infant learning Clipper. A friend who was accomplished in Clipper explained to me that the functions needed to be memorized completely before I would ever make it. I did that then, but can you imagine trying to memorize all the functions that are supplied with Alpha? Maybe you can, I cannot. In Clipper, we made or purchased/traded (udf)functions to do what we needed.

A help file with the Alpha functions categorized might be a blessing. I know it would take more work and some redundancy. A category for forms would also have functions that would be the same as reports, but not all.

Same with other categories. I would love a category on file manipulation for instance instead of going in and searching for "file" and not seeing maybe 30 other functions that are under another heading. I guess this comes under the naming convention and I sure don't want anybody changing the names of the current functions at this stage.

I, like most of you would love to see more documentation on functions and yes, there are some with no docs in the help file that are useful to me. It is a lot like try three functions and hope one works sometimes, or come here and find out which one before spending a week trying all the different possible ways for each of the three(it could be 20 or 1 that I found).

Updated help file would be a great thing, but I understand v8 bugs and fixes are the utmost importance right now. I have been in a position where I had the choice of fixing a very important mathmatical problem or working on the help file. I chose the math just like you would.

I hope I did not offend anyone and let it be known, I appreciate all of you and the Alpha Company.

[Fulltimer]

Re: What's good about the WAS and what's not so good ...

So, would you say that using and 'contributing' on the forum is enabling this attitude (as described in this thread) because all of the complaining is played out here, rather than directed there, at Alpha. As a major contributor, this has been on my mind. That is, I sometimes think about stopping.

Steve,

You were instrumental in my purchasing A5 in the first place. In fact Alpha had you call me because of my pre-sales apprehension about the product. It would be absolutely disasterous for you to not participate on this forum. I know that there has got to be a large number of users that must feel the same way.

I feel so strong about your personal involvment I really think that Alpha should PAY YOU to participate. I say this with great passion. I don't know how big of a company Alpha is but I can guarantee you they have the means to pay you and pay you WELL.

There are others that merit similar consideration in varying degrees of importance but something needs to be done soon. Let's face it, it's not like there are no alternative options in program development. C'mon Alpha, please hear our pleas.

[michaelwpayton]

Re: What's good about the WAS and what's not so good ...

I have similar complaints about the documentation and the clear lack of being assured that a serious issue would ever be resolved.

Excuse me for jumping in, but what "serious issue," specifically, has Alpha not assured you "would ever be resolved?"

One could spend months working on a project only to be stumped near the "end" of the project by a feature that can not be implemented and this lack of completion can "taint" the whole product.

What feature has you so "stumped," so as to "taint" your whole product?

If more people speak up and do it consistenly, then maybe the company will take notice and "fix" the problem.

What, exactly, is the "problem," and how would you suggest Alpha "fix" it.

Anyone using A5, from novice to guru knows for a fact that A5's help system is next to useless. We also know that were it not for a few A5 guru's who contribute to this forum, a lot of us would be flat out left in the cold. Personally I would have had to dump the product after two weeks of use. I've gained some expertise in a number of different computer languages and in no other platform have I spent so much time on trying to make a specific function work in the manner it was intended. I also get very frustrated in a component that worked five minutes ago, suddenly stops working in the same manner.

Re "help system is next to useless," what is wrong with it... what should they do to it?

Re "Specific function" that doesn't work as "intended," which function?

Re component that works, but then doesn't work... which component... what exactly seems to be the problem?

[Fulltimer]

Re: What's good about the WAS and what's not so good ...

Excuse me for jumping in, but what "serious issue," specifically, has Alpha not assured you "would ever be resolved?"

Michael,

It is clear to me that your responses to the subject of this thread are intended to cast doubt of the validity of those submitting related posts.

Are you an attorney? Are you trying to raise reasonable doubt? Why do YOU need to have every single issue spelled out to you. The specifics of what "most of us" are talking about are peppered throughout this forum. You can find hundreds of them if you wanted to sit down and read them.

Review the questions and see how many are left unresolved. I see by your join date that it hasn't been very long since you joined. Maybe you have'nt tried enough "real application" developement to run into snags of your own.

You certainly seem to sound like a person who is having no problems. To me, a person having no problems with A5 is not attempting anything serious. Just like in a legal deposition, is it your job to simply read the forum and ask everyone to explain themselves. Well we have real work to do and don't have time for such "verbose" explanations, especially when the questions do not appear genuine.

Maybe you are still evaluating A5 and want your "fears" allayed before you get yourself really involved with the product. Well let me warn you, your biggest concerns will begin to occur when your 30 day evaluation is over.

In any case, those who take the time to try to understand and make the product better are Alpha's biggest supporters. Those who couldn't give a s*&% simply just don't do anything. They may or may not be really committed. Those of us who really care, want Alpha to "be all it can be."

[Al Buchholz]

Re: What's good about the WAS and what's not so good ...

Tom

Here is some suggested reading that you'll find helpful.

http://www.robertfulghum.com/