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Thread: New Run Engine Question

  1. #91
    Former Alpha Employee Brett Johnston's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Hi Tony,
    The pricing mentioned for the OEM license is the upgrade price, which means that if you have previously purchased any Alpha Five or Alpha Four product, then you are entitled to upgrade pricing.

    Thanks

    Brett

  2. #92
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    I just downloaded the V9 help file. From the section titled

    Alpha Five Runtime


    Distributing Runtime Applications - Licensing Issues

    The number of users who can use your application concurrently on any network is based on the type of Runtime that you purchased. The people to whom you distribute the Alpha Five Runtime may not, in turn, distribute any copies of the Alpha Five Runtime. For example, if you purchased an "Unlimited 10-User Runtime", then a maximum of 10 users can use your application concurrently on any particular network. If you purchased an Unlimited User Runtime, then there are no limitations on the number of concurrent users of your application.

    I believe that is the exact same language as V8.

  3. #93
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Lee View Post
    ...
    I believe that is the exact same language as V8.
    Alan,

    I believe you are mistaken. As far as I can tell they are not selling an "unlimited" RT in v9.

    From this link: https://www.alphasoftware.com/shop/a...un_engines.asp

    Run-Engines are licensed per installation, which means that each work station that the Run-Engine is installed on will require a license.

  4. #94
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Lee View Post
    I just downloaded the V9 help file. From the section titled

    Alpha Five Runtime


    Distributing Runtime Applications - Licensing Issues...
    I believe that is the exact same language as V8.
    And version 7 for that matter - Unlimited RTs were never available in V8... I believe it usually takes a rather long while to fully update the whole help file...

  5. #95
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    I copied and pasted that straight from the V9 help file. Whether or not it is valid, I can not say. The wording was never changed from V8 to V9 was my only point.

    Follow the link provided on the post concerning help file down load and see for you selves.

    I promise I did not make it up.:D

  6. #96
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Lee View Post
    Follow the link provided on the post concerning help file down load and see for you selves.

    I promise I did not make it up.:D
    We never doubted your word, only your interpretation. I bet they will change that.

  7. #97
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Lee View Post
    I copied and pasted that straight from the V9 help file. Whether or not it is valid, I can not say. The wording was never changed from V8 to V9 was my only point.

    Follow the link provided on the post concerning help file down load and see for you selves.

    I promise I did not make it up.:D
    I believe you but I know the help file text is simply not updated as quickly and fully as some stuff on the website...

  8. #98
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter.Greulich View Post
    We never doubted your word, only your interpretation. I bet they will change that.
    Didn't it take over a year for the V8 changes to be fully added to the help file? THen maybe in 2010 the full help file for Platinum will be availavle ;)

  9. #99
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter.Greulich View Post
    We never doubted your word,

    Sure you didn't! :p

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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Andrea, :)

    This time, I have to disagree with you regarding
    Unlimited RTs were never available in V8
    From the version 8 documentation---NOT the help file

    http://www.alphasoftware.com/shop/Al...roduct=runtime
    Alpha Five Version 8 Runtime Licensing
    The Alpha Five Version 8 runtimes allow for unlimited distribution per application or an unlimited number of installs per site.
    Mike
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  11. #101
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    That section hasn't been changed in forever, I'm sure. But if there is going to be a radical change in runtime licensing, it would probably be a good idea to get that changed ASAP.

  12. #102
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Lee View Post
    Could someone from Alpha please reply to each of the following scenarios with short sentences, using small words.

    1. I write a accounting application for an individual, single user, that I charge a $100. Someone must also pay Alpha $99 for a single user runtime?

    2. I write a pricing application for a small office with 5 users that I charge $500. Someone must also pay Alpha $399 for a 5 user runtime?

    3. I write a purchasing application for a office of 10 users that I charge $750. Someone must pay Alpha $599 for a 10 user runtime?

    4. If I sold each of the applications in the above scenarios multiple times, someone in each case would have to pay for additional runtime licenses?

    5. What is the difference between a package developer and a custom apps developer? A package developer distributes to many, as opposed to custom apps developer writing an application that they are the primary user?


    6. How much is the OEM license and how does it work?

    7. From another post that was never answered:
    In V9, will it be possible to create an Update operation in Alpha, from the operations tab, that will update a SQL table? Will you be able to Post from a .dbf table in Alpha to a SQL table? Will other Alpha operations have the ability to modify SQL tables?

    I am anxiously awaiting the answer.
    Based on an e-mail from sales the answers are:

    1. yes

    2. yes

    3. yes

    4. yes

    5. no answer.

    6. $599 but only a SINGLE user data-base.

    7. no answer.

    I guess you could by a 100 user pack for $3399 and divide it across multiple applications. But, I am NOT sure about that.

  13. #103
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Originally Posted by Alan Lee View Post
    Could someone from Alpha please reply to each of the following scenarios with short sentences, using small words.

    I write a accounting application for an individual, single user, that I charge a $100. Someone must also pay Alpha $99 for a single user runtime?

    Not the case - you would probably use the OEM Run Engine for this, since it is a single user app. The price would be $599 and you can sell your accounting application to an unlimited number of folks


    I write a pricing application for a small office with 5 users that I charge $500. Someone must also pay Alpha $399 for a 5 user runtime?

    I write a purchasing application for a office of 10 users that I charge $750. Someone must pay Alpha $599 for a 10 user runtime?

    Since these are multi user applications you would use the NON OEM Run Engine model- where the cost is on declining scale - i.e. the cost goes down as you buy larger packs of run engines. As an example, it would be $40 per seat if purchased as part of a 50 seat/machine pack or $50 per seat if purchased as part of a 20 seat/machine pack. For a 100 pack the price would be $35 per seat. Run Engines can be used in multiple ways. i.e. a 20 pack can be used to deploy to 10 customers with 2 users or 5 customers with 4 users.

    Also if you sold the same customer your "pricing application" and your "purchasing application" they would still need only 1 run engine per seat/machine


    What is the difference between a package developer and a custom apps developer? In Version 9 Run Engines - i dont see that there is a difference


    6. How much is the OEM license and how does it work?

    *OEM Package Details (designed for developers building commercial, packaged software)

    Price: one time flat fee: $599 - this OEM version will be available soon.

    The OEM Run Engine License package is intended for developers who plan to create and sell packaged software using Alpha Five V9 Platinum. This package provides a more affordable alternative to purchasing per-seat licenses. You can distribute an unlimited number of copies of your software for one flat licensing fee.

    # Market and sell an unlimited number of copies of your packaged application.
    # Easily replace the Alpha Banner with your own splash screen.
    # Includes functionality of Alpha Five Version 8's Runtime Plus License.
    # Designed for single-user, DBF file applications that don't require SQL connectivity.
    # Distribute multiple different commercial packaged applications from the same license.
    Richard Rabins
    Co Chairman
    Alpha Software

  14. #104
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    the 85 people/seats I have on 103 machines in v7 would cost about how much? in money? at say 25.00 * 100 = 2500.00? versus the real cost(in v7) of about 500?? ok maybe it was 700?? That is a lot of money and if I add the new sale pending, it will go up by 400? versu 0?

    That is the thinking Richard.

    I am forced into spending 3000.00 to go to no runtime royalties per seat. I will also have to duplicate everything I have done and fortunately have some friendly programmers ready to lend a hand for free to get me back to where I am. They never wanted me out of their environment. We always helped each other kinda like this board.

    I am still trying to help here. Some really good heads on here.
    Dave Mason
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    Skype is dave.mason46

  15. #105
    Alpha Software Employee Richard Rabins's Avatar
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Dave on another thread i posted a reply to this reply from you


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DaveM View Post
    Richard,



    Per seat means a computer( you would only license the computer) user means the app can be on 200 computers but only the limit osf users can access at one time. I have a 20 nuser runtime and if I don't restrict it, only 20 users can run my app at any given time.



    Dave - thanks for explaining your requirement - this is helpful.

    We will look into how this might be achieved
    Thanks
    Richard Rabins
    Co Chairman
    Alpha Software

  16. #106
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Rabins View Post
    Dave on another thread i posted a reply to this reply from you


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DaveM View Post
    Richard,



    Per seat means a computer( you would only license the computer) user means the app can be on 200 computers but only the limit osf users can access at one time. I have a 20 nuser runtime and if I don't restrict it, only 20 users can run my app at any given time.



    Dave - thanks for explaining your requirement - this is helpful.

    We will look into how this might be achieved
    Thanks

    This simple distinction between what the runtimes have historically been to what is now being presented is what is the most troubling to me. Perhaps Alpha can look into offering a "floating license" that works the same as the original runtimes. My companies Oracle based ERP system works like this. Our CAD system works like this. We can install on as many PCs as we want, the limit is on the number of active connections. We have that now with the V8 runtime.

    Offering both options with a higher price on the floating license model would allow the developer to price their apps according to the customer's needs. If my customer needs the option of floating licenses as opposed to fixed seat licenses I can justify a higher price for the convenience.

    As far as the pricing structure being higher for V9 than the previous versions, since we need to buy runtimes for each user: hey, this new version is a major upgrade from V8. The ability to read and write to native SQL databases from the desktop and to build forms against these tables is awesome. Some of the other new features are great improvements as well.

    It is a shame that the roll out of a such a major advancement in capabilities is clouded by all the (in my opinion, warranted) criticism over the new runtime model.

  17. #107
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Richard,

    I personally feel that the SQL Connectivity is a huge feature and warrants a higher price. You mentioned in the OEM:

    # Designed for single-user, DBF file applications that don't require SQL connectivity.

    Since you are able to disable the SQL connectivity, perhaps you can offer a lower pricing for the per seat run time licenses for the many users that do not need the functionality of the SQL.

    I have clients with a 10-user and others with a 20-user runtime. They fall into the same scenario as mentioned by DaveM. They also have NO need or use of the SQL connectivity, but perhaps would want to benefit from the other new features available in V9.

    I feel they would think that the current run engine pricing of 599 and 999 is a bit high since they would only be taking advantage of a small portion of the additional features without the SQL. They would have major issues with that pricing if they can no longer put a 10 user license on 15 computers in their office as it allowed them the flexibility of being able to use whatever computer is most available to them at the time they needed to access their Alpha application.

    At the same time, I do have clients that use the SQL connectivity and would like to take advantage of the new SQL features. They probably would not have any issue at all with the current run engine pricing. They would, however, have difficulty with the current pricing if they lost the ability of being able to install the runtime on unlimited computers restricted only by the number of concurrent users that could access the application at a time.

    I understand the need for the per seat licensing as this does resolve the issue of the long time problem of people using the runtime licenses as they were NOT intended to be used. However, this does cause a problem with those that used the licenses correctly but could install them on unlimited computers.

    Perhaps instead of a license per computer restriction, Alpha could create something that would have a license per connection restriction? Just thinking out loud here :)
    Cheryl
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  18. #108
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Very well said Cheryl.

  19. #109
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    I completely agree with the concerns voiced here. While the new "active-link table" is a major plus for folks like me who are forced to integrate applications with other database files like Oracle, Access has been doing that for a couple of versions. This should be a feature available to all and has been on the feature list forum for a while.

    It seems that Alpha is aiming at much bigger customers than the base of existing customers with the new licensing arrangements. This is a dangerous marketing strategy in that the base of existing customers (I think) are folks who are running smaller apps as compared to the SQL server and Oracle installations which may have 1000's of users. Alpha has served that niche very well and I hope continues to do so in the future. However, by offering the "premium" things we've been asking for for ages (active links to foriegn database tables, improved browser capabilities, etc) only in a premium product model, the emphasis seems to have switched. It will take years to penetrate the large app market.

    I would like to respectfully suggest that an alternative strategy might be to offer two products - a web-development product which focuses exclusively on web apps and a desktop version which has the bells and whistles without any capability of doing web apps. Rarely, I would think, would a devleoper offer both platforms. The development is completely separate and so should the development platforms.

    FWIW,

    Dave Volgas, MD
    small developer for very specialized research apps
    David A. Volgas, MD

  20. #110
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Dave

    An excellent idea IF the pricing is right for developers.
    If It Works First Time, There's Something Wrong!!!

  21. #111
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    I appreciate you taking the time Cheryl to lay out the issues as you see them and we will be looking into possible ways to respond positively
    thanks!
    Richard

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheryl Lemire View Post
    Richard,

    I personally feel that the SQL Connectivity is a huge feature and warrants a higher price. You mentioned in the OEM:

    # Designed for single-user, DBF file applications that don't require SQL connectivity.

    Since you are able to disable the SQL connectivity, perhaps you can offer a lower pricing for the per seat run time licenses for the many users that do not need the functionality of the SQL.

    I have clients with a 10-user and others with a 20-user runtime. They fall into the same scenario as mentioned by DaveM. They also have NO need or use of the SQL connectivity, but perhaps would want to benefit from the other new features available in V9.

    I feel they would think that the current run engine pricing of 599 and 999 is a bit high since they would only be taking advantage of a small portion of the additional features without the SQL. They would have major issues with that pricing if they can no longer put a 10 user license on 15 computers in their office as it allowed them the flexibility of being able to use whatever computer is most available to them at the time they needed to access their Alpha application.

    At the same time, I do have clients that use the SQL connectivity and would like to take advantage of the new SQL features. They probably would not have any issue at all with the current run engine pricing. They would, however, have difficulty with the current pricing if they lost the ability of being able to install the runtime on unlimited computers restricted only by the number of concurrent users that could access the application at a time.

    I understand the need for the per seat licensing as this does resolve the issue of the long time problem of people using the runtime licenses as they were NOT intended to be used. However, this does cause a problem with those that used the licenses correctly but could install them on unlimited computers.

    Perhaps instead of a license per computer restriction, Alpha could create something that would have a license per connection restriction? Just thinking out loud here :)
    Richard Rabins
    Co Chairman
    Alpha Software

  22. #112
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Coltz View Post
    This simple distinction between what the runtimes have historically been to what is now being presented is what is the most troubling to me. Perhaps Alpha can look into offering a "floating license" that works the same as the original runtimes.
    That would be nice, but the problem with that is this:

    Platinum allows you to export a lot of settings etc. very easily between different databases, projects etc. With DBF tables, they could enforce the amount of concurrent users of any given DB very easily, but with Active Link Tables to SQL databases, this is simply not possible, because the users connect to an SQL database rather than to a centrally stored DBF file... so you could easily get around the concurrent user limit, as there is no way for Alpha to keep track of that with SQL database active link tables...

    What *I* would like to see is, not for myself but for those (the majority it seems) who have long used A5 to write multi-user DBF based apps, a modification of the OEM "No SQL" RT that is split into:

    1) To have a basic, "neutered" RT engine shipped with A5, and thus the ability to create single user DBF only exes built into A5 Platinum... Full stop. Because let's face it A5 is handy for writing little programs or monitor apps too... and it would be a GREAT incentive for new programmers too.

    The more commercial apps out there will still be needing multi-user RTs, so I doubt that a lot of folk out there would be "ripping Alpha off" (or getting rich quick) with single user DBF only apps written with this...

    2) A cheaper than the per seat, multi-user "No SQL" RT model along the same lines as is currently the case with V8, because without the SQL functionality you can still keep check on the amount of concurrent users etc...

    On top of that, keep the "full whack" client server SQL-enabled RTs that are necessary for Enterprise solutions....

  23. #113
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    I think that Alpha needs to address the question of how are current apps deployed. It seems that most users now either 1) develop web apps which make the runtime issue moot or 2) deploy the RT on whatever machines it is needed on for input, with a limit on the number of concurrent users.

    The major sticking point, I think is that if you have a high number of input stations despite having a low number of concurrent users, then it is prohibitive to buy a license for every station. The choices under the current licensing arrangement are to deploy using the web (which is not possible for many of us who work under the auspices of a much larger enterprise IT department who takes years to deploy Office 2007, much less a WAS server) or to limit the number of input stations where data can be entered.

    I personally don't care how the problem is solved, but I don't develop web apps and can't realistically put up my own web server, so I'm stuck limiting the number of input stations we use.

    To illustrate the point, we currently deploy the A5v8 RT on 11 machines in 3 buildings in the hospital. Research nurses enter data close to the source of that data rather than fill out forms and bring them back to the office to enter into A5 there. However, the total time a user is connected to the database during the day may only be 2-3 hours. Therefore a 3-user license serves our needs very well.

    If there is a low-cost solution to the above scenario, I'm all ears. Otherwise, we have to adjust the workflow quite a bit or move to a different product.

    Dave
    David A. Volgas, MD

  24. #114
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    David

    we are looking into this scenario
    thanks
    Richard Rabins
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  25. #115
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Thank you Richard. BTW, Happy Easter!!!
    David A. Volgas, MD

  26. #116
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    the same to you!

    Thanks
    Richard Rabins
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