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Thread: New Run Engine Question

  1. #31
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Barley View Post
    Hello All,

    Yes it is still a little confusing. Just sent this off by email to sales, to see what the answer is. Interpitation is a funny/crazy thing.

    HTML Code:
    Hello,
    
    Have been reading on the Alpha site about the new V9 runtime lic. Differences.
    
    Say I purchase a 10 user V9 runtime with 1 license number.  I develop an application that can be used at 3 locations with 10 people at each location.
    
    Does the licensing still work the same, where I can purchase the one 10 user runtime, and use it with the one license at 3 locations?  
    
    Or do I the developer need to now buy 3 V9 10 user license numbers to distribute the application at the 3 locations, for 10 users at each location?
    
    Thanks
    
    Ed

    Ed
    Ed,

    as i understand, you can install your runtime engine in one or more locations with added security. this security means the end-user wont be able to re-install (redistribute) the runtime engine to other location without our knowledge.

    alpha suggests that we buy multiple single licenses if we develop applications that are intended to run on multiple clients for added flexibility. for example, you intend to buy 5 user runtime licenses, buy it in single license times 5.

    in v8, limiting the use of user license on a 10 user runtime will take some xbasic skills. i know ira has an addin that serve this functionality.

    i created one too but it is embedded on my applications, it asks once on first use for authentication before you can use the app.

    regards to all
    Last edited by fddizon; 03-20-2008 at 07:45 PM.
    Francis

  2. #32
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Bill:
    I am probably wrong, but in the past there was no need to put in a license no when using the runtime version of Alpha v8 or v7. Thus, yes, you need a runtime to run an application you created, but there was no extra charge when sending it along with a completed app to another computer. That seems to have now changed. As I read it, you would have to buy a separate runtime for each app you produce and prior to running the app on another computer, you would have to include a license number for the runtime for it to work. The license number would only work for one application, as I would think the registration would go back to Alpha for verification, as does a full version of Alpha.

    Please correct me if I am wrong on this.
    "Ollie, remember how dumb I used to be? Well, I'm much better now."

    Pete

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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    From what I have read on this forum for good while is that the developers wanted to take any hint of Alpha out of the application. Some suggesting were to use another name in the window title or "how do I stop the popup messages from showing alpha in the header?"

    Now as Pete just posted
    as I would think the registration would go back to Alpha for verification, as does a full version of Alpha.
    I'm not a developer, but I think that would upset a client if they bought an application from a developer and then when they load the application for the first time they have to enter their license which would have Alpha intervention for verification.

    I really don't think that is a good idea - but then again I'm don't make my living as a developer.

    I may be wrong.

    Tom

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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Pete,

    Just stating what it says in the v8 license - "If you are developing custom applications for various customers, then each customer is required to have their own runtime."

    That doesn't sound any clearer that a developer SHOULD purchase a new runtime license for each customer they sell a custom app to. Just because a license code was not required to be entered does not mean it can be freely distributed. I never heard of Alpha going after anyone for doing this , but MANY companies do.

    I think Alpha is finally taking care of this unmanagable problem by requiring a license code to be entered for each user.

    I think there was a common misconception about what could and could not be done with the runtime. I, quite honestly, never read the license, just assumed that you buy the runtime and whatever you did with it was ok. Does not appear to be the case then and certainly not now. But hopefully Richard will clear this up.

    Bill

  5. #35
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Lenny Forziati View Post
    That is a broken link, the correct URL is https://www.alphasoftware.com/shop/a...un_engines.asp
    Thanks Lenny (and others).

  6. #36
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Perhaps clarification can be found here re: v8:

    http://alphasoftware.blogspot.com/search?q=filemaker


    It says, in part (as example):
    All Alpha Five runtime modules, which start at three-user, are unlimited runtimes. What does this mean? If we go back to the gas station model above, it means that I can sell my application to an unlimited number of gas stations without having to buy a runtime for each gas station.

    -and-

    Alpha Five allows you to install the runtime on an unlimited number of workstations per site. So even with the three-user runtime, if the gas station has 10 workstations, you can install the runtime on all 10 workstations, with the only limitation being that it will only allow a maximum of 3 concurrent users on a network. If they are not networked, then there is no limitation.

    During my purchase deliberation, Alpha sales pointed me to that very blog entry to explain that a single 3-user license could be redeployed to multiple customers.

    No doubt about it, v9 licensing is an entirely different animal.
    Last edited by fsi; 03-20-2008 at 08:35 PM.

  7. #37
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Tbaker View Post
    I'm not a developer, but I think that would upset a client if they bought an application from a developer and then when they load the application for the first time they have to enter their license which would have Alpha intervention for verification.
    The dialog in the Run Engine that prompts for the license number is completely customizable by the developer (if the developers wants to customize it).

  8. #38
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Selwyn Rabins View Post
    The dialog in the Run Engine that prompts for the license number is completely customizable by the developer (if the developers wants to customize it).
    Indeed, I feel this would look and feel much more professional to the customer than the current/V8 model... If you customise it, that is... the important question about "What about allowing time demos/trials of apps written in A5" hasn't been answered yet though... this would be quite interesting although it doesn't currently affect me...

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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    the important question about "What about allowing time demos/trials of apps written in A5" hasn't been answered yet though...
    I think Richard answered that by saying that there is an OEM version for this purpose.

    if you have built a commercial application that you are selling to multiple clients - you would qualify for OEM RUN ENGINE pricing that would fully take into account the price of your application to your customer and continue to make Alpha Five a very good choice from a development AND an economic point of view.

  10. #40
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Page View Post
    I think Richard answered that by saying that there is an OEM version for this purpose.
    I suppose so... it would just be a VERY nice touch if you could produce a timed demo/trial from A5 directly, without having to code any locks etc. after the trial expires yourself...

  11. #41
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    I am usually very positive about Business, but it is non of anybody's business how much I am selling my product for. A runtime is a runtime! It is purchased by the developer or user and is not the business of any company or individual how or where it is used except as prescibed.

    I built my own count and can stop my 20 user runtime at 1 or howerever many users and I execise that.

    Programmers are the ones that need to worry about their licensing and it has been discussed many times on this forum. The how to's are here.

    It sounds like we are going to have to buy a license for each sale we make and then OUR app will be registered with Alpha. This never happened with Clipper, VB, C, C++ or any other runtime/developement I ever worked with. This is something I am against 100%. I hope it is not the case.

    Now I will be booted of the forum for sure, but have spoken like a true american with roots to the first people of this country. Now I am going to bed MAD.
    Dave Mason
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  12. #42
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Dave - we are not registering users of your application
    Richard Rabins
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  13. #43
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Griffin View Post
    Richard,


    SO for the "package" developers there is an oem license. And for the custom app developers there is a more secure, more flexible and simpler way to license their apps.


    Am I way off base or missing something?

    Bill
    Bill you have described it well
    Richard Rabins
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  14. #44
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Could someone from Alpha please reply to each of the following scenarios with short sentences, using small words.

    1. I write a accounting application for an individual, single user, that I charge a $100. Someone must also pay Alpha $99 for a single user runtime?

    2. I write a pricing application for a small office with 5 users that I charge $500. Someone must also pay Alpha $399 for a 5 user runtime?

    3. I write a purchasing application for a office of 10 users that I charge $750. Someone must pay Alpha $599 for a 10 user runtime?

    4. If I sold each of the applications in the above scenarios multiple times, someone in each case would have to pay for additional runtime licenses?

    5. What is the difference between a package developer and a custom apps developer? A package developer distributes to many, as opposed to custom apps developer writing an application that they are the primary user?


    6. How much is the OEM license and how does it work?

    7. From another post that was never answered:
    In V9, will it be possible to create an Update operation in Alpha, from the operations tab, that will update a SQL table? Will you be able to Post from a .dbf table in Alpha to a SQL table? Will other Alpha operations have the ability to modify SQL tables?

    I am anxiously awaiting the answer.
    Last edited by Alan Lee; 03-21-2008 at 07:14 AM. Reason: add to it

  15. #45
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Richard,

    Alpha has put the user forum forward as a selling point of its product with its friendly and free technical support. Well the forum is telling you something now and I think it is something you should consider. Reading through the threads I get a very definite sense of alienation coming through. That is not good. Remember you yourselves steer people to the forum to see what Alpha can do and the support offered in it. I just wonder what any new viewers are thinking now when the look at the backlash of comments. Do not make the mistake of leaving your current customers behind in that search for new bigger ones. I worked for a company that did that and had been established for over 40 years and employed 180 people. They got drawn into the Telecom boom and let slip all there defence contracts in search of higher volume work with the likes of Nokia, Motorola and Ericsson. Things were great for 5-10 years but when the bubble burst it hit hard and they closed down in 2003. Please, you have a great piece of software let it grow at a natural healthy rate keeping your current customers while looking for the bigger markets. The new runtime does not conform to that as you can see by all the comments.

  16. #46
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    From the Alpha 5 V8 web based help found at

    http://support.alphasoftware.com/alp...lpv8/index.htm

    Distributing Runtime Applications - Licensing Issues

    The number of users who can use your application concurrently on any network is based on the type of Runtime that you purchased. The people to whom you distribute the Alpha Five Runtime may not, in turn, distribute any copies of the Alpha Five Runtime. For example, if you purchased an "Unlimited 10-User Runtime", then a maximum of 10 users can use your application concurrently on any particular network. If you purchased an Unlimited User Runtime, then there are no limitations on the number of concurrent users of your application.

    The new verbage is not nearly as clear.

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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    One thing I am curious about as how building the install would work now that the runtimes are limited by end user licensing rather than the developer needing the runtime installed on their machine when building an install.

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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    From the Run Engine documentation:

    The Alpha Five Installation Maker is only enabled if you have both the full version of Alpha Five and the Run Engine version of Alpha Five installed on the same computer. To access the Installation Maker, start the full version of Alpha Five (not the Run Engine version), and select the Tools, Utilities menu from the Control Panel.

  19. #49
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Quote Originally Posted by NoeticCC View Post
    One thing I am curious about as how building the install would work now that the runtimes are limited by end user licensing rather than the developer needing the runtime installed on their machine when building an install.
    I would think this would work the same way as in Version 8. The difference will be that the end user will have to input a license id no. the first time he/she opens the application using the new runtime.
    "Ollie, remember how dumb I used to be? Well, I'm much better now."

    Pete

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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Quote Originally Posted by trackmanpete View Post
    I would think this would work the same way as in Version 8. The difference will be that the end user will have to input a license id no. the first time he/she opens the application using the new runtime.
    Yes but what about the single runtimes? Does that mean you have to re-create a new install for each user if you buy the runtimes separately?

  21. #51
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Complete documentaion on the new Alpha Five Run engine is here

    It should answer all of your questions.

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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Griffin View Post
    Complete documentaion on the new Alpha Five Run engine is here

    It should answer all of your questions.
    Not really - the install maker part of it doesn't seem to have been changed much from V8 - other parts refer to an "Alpha Five Run Engine Installation Program" though...

    The way this is licensed now, it would make sense for A5 Platinum to just come with the Install Maker readily installed/integrated in A5. After all, the licensing is linked to and controlled from the RT engine copy on the end user's machine now, so there is no need for the developer to install the runtime on THEIR machine... In fact if you do this and try and run the RT, surely you'd end up wasting the license on your PC instead of the client machine?

    This way you could distribute your app to people who already own a RT engine or a full copy of A5 Platinum, but YOU do not require the RT installed on your PC...
    Last edited by NoeticCC; 03-21-2008 at 08:49 AM.

  23. #53
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Quote Originally Posted by NoeticCC View Post
    Not really - the install maker part of it doesn't seem to have been changed much from V8 - other parts refer to an "Alpha Five Run Engine Installation Program" though...

    The way this is licensed now, it would make sense for A5 Platinum to just come with the Install Maker readily installed/integrated in A5. After all, the licensing is linked to and controlled from the RT engine copy on the end user's machine now, so there is no need for the developer to install the runtime on THEIR machine... In fact if you do this and try and run the RT, surely you'd end up wasting the license on your PC instead of the client machine?

    This way you could distribute your app to people who already own a RT engine or a full copy of A5 Platinum, but YOU do not require the RT installed on your PC...
    Might be time for another visual from Alpha...:)
    "Ollie, remember how dumb I used to be? Well, I'm much better now."

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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Quote Originally Posted by trackmanpete View Post
    Might be time for another visual from Alpha...:)
    Or maybe my brain just needs a reboot... I guess I just don't understand why the developer still needs the RT installed and having run it on their machine, because if you install and run it, surely you end up having to enter the license key?!

    It would be a good incentive for developers if the ability to build installs was just part and parcel of V9 - e.g. if the RT install setup was included in the Platinum developer version, the same way it is with PowerBuilder for example... After all the end user can't USE the app built with this without a license, so there is no longer any need for Alpha to restrict a developer's ability to build installs of their products!

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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Quote Originally Posted by NoeticCC View Post
    The way this is licensed now, it would make sense for A5 Platinum to just come with the Install Maker readily installed/integrated in A5. After all, the licensing is linked to and controlled from the RT engine copy on the end user's machine now, so there is no need for the developer to install the runtime on THEIR machine... In fact if you do this and try and run the RT, surely you'd end up wasting the license on your PC instead of the client machine?

    This way you could distribute your app to people who already own a RT engine or a full copy of A5 Platinum, but YOU do not require the RT installed on your PC...

    Since when did something that made sense have anything to do with the way that things actually work? :) The documentation tells you HOW it works, not whether it works the way you think it should. I doubt you would have to burn (use up) a RT license to make installs.

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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Griffin View Post
    Since when did something that made sense have anything to do with the way that things actually work? :)
    LOL yes I guess that is a fair point!!!
    The documentation tells you HOW it works, not whether it works the way you think it should. I doubt you would have to burn (use up) a RT license to make installs.
    I guess I am just hoping the documentation hasn't been updated fully... certainly the fact that it still says "The Alpha Five Installation Maker is only enabled if you have both the full version of Alpha Five and the Run Engine
    version of Alpha Five installed on the same computer."... seems to indicate that this hasn't been adapted for the new licensing model.

    Attempting to get to the Install Maker in V9 also says the same, and explicitly refers to having to RUN the RT edition to be able to use the install maker... which doesn't quite make sense with the new licensing model for RTs... and would effectively waste a RT license on enabling you to build installs in the first place...

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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    I'm not sure that the original Alpha runtime pricing ever made sense, but neither does this new model. The whole "call us for pricing and we'll work with you" idea does not inspire confidence. I'm guessing that most of us expected the current model to continue but with an additional "bump" for client server connectivity.

    The assumption now seems to be that "someone else" is picking up the tab for the back end licenses. So the developer who wants to create client server applications with V9 not only has to contend with "per seat" licensing cost for Alpha but also the "per seat" or "per server" licensing cost for the back end.

    While it's true that it's easy to get free developer editions of the major client server back end databases, "free" goes out the window the moment that you start to commercialize an application and distribute it to others. Unless your potential customer already owns the client server licenses you can now double the base cost to install a new V9 application.
    Finian

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    Default My 2 cents worth

    Personally, I don't like paying for any kind of runtime.

    I cut my programming teeth during the IBM hay day. Then you paid for the development software and that was it. Whatever you produced with that product was yours to do with as you pleased. Granted, the computer it ran on had to be able to execute your code.

    The way I look at it, A5 should be able to price their product however they want. I also, believe that serious developers don't limit themselves to one development platform. Hell, I taught myself Ruby and Ruby on Rails at the tender age of 63! It took a lot of ginkgo but I did it. I can write serious web based applications and give them away if I want too since all I have in it is sweat equity. I did not abandon A5, I just added another option.

    The guys that I partner with stick with the .net framework. Sometimes A5 is great for the backend and .net works better for the browser interface. We use Autohotkey for most of the scripts that need to do some pretty low level stuff. If we can't be competitive when bidding on a project with the tools we know how to use, then we suck up and look for something else to do.

    The one caveat I see as far as A5 goes is this. As their product grows in features and complexity, the users that learn to use it to the fullest may wake up some morning and realize that learning Ruby, PHP, or any other "free" product might not be so daunting.

    There are a LOT of choices out there.

    I've always like working with A5 and have used it off and one for many years and plan to continue to do so in the future. I'm just glad that if I decide their pricing is a little rich for my blood, I have other options.

    As I said, just my 2 cents worth.

    Have a great day!
    Tommy Thompson
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    I APOLOGIZE for my outburst and thanks for not tossing me off the forum. 12:00 Midnight is not the best time for thinking in the right directions.

    It seems one should read the documentation on v9 runtime(the pdf file). It is explained much better than here. Glad I did that.

    I still do not like the per computer licensing scenario. If I want to put the runtime on 30 computers, I should be able to do so, but limit the users to 20 at a time. It seems that by limiting to computers instead of users, Alpha thinks it will generte more revenue. That is like the government and taxes. Lower the taxes for the upper income makes a better economy and tax base rises, lower taxes for the poor and the tax base goes down. Yes, I can explain those economics. If it costs more for the end user(my customer), I will sell less and make less to spend for future product. It is also one less feature to talk about in my presentation.

    It seems to me that the regular runtime remains the same as before in the way it works for me, but the oem is for the smaller(mostly), possibly packaged, software packages that one would sell on ebay, in stores, tucows, etc. without the same costs as before and the ability to add user licenses in a "one or two more" situation is a good thing. Hope someone corrects me if I am reading it wrong.

    I will call sales today or monday as time permits. I love the features of v9 and need the 20 user runtime and I just got a small bonus check from GM.

    If luck/sales skills have it, then I may have sold another unit in the next couple weeks. my large app is put on demo for up to a month and sometimes as many as 3 months before a sale occurs. It is easier to put in a demo than to make a large sale cold. After data is entered and a tool is used for a longer period, it is an easier sale because the user got used to it and don't want to lose a good tool. This one has been used for 2 months. Now they want their own inhouse web page with a lot of abilities. Pricing will be a challenge for me for the web side.
    Last edited by DaveM; 03-21-2008 at 10:28 AM.
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    Default Re: New Run Engine Question

    Quote Originally Posted by DaveM View Post
    It seems to me that the regular runtime remains the same as before in the way it works for me, but the oem is for the smaller(mostly), possibly packaged, software packages that one would sell on ebay, in stores, tucows, etc. without the same costs as before and the ability to add user licenses in a "one or two more" situation is a good thing. Hope someone corrects me if I am reading it wrong.
    It sounds to me like you would qualify for OEM licensing too, at least for the apps you sell regularly, as opposed to custom-made apps. If you custom-write a desktop app for a client you still need the appropriate number of RT licenses for that client, but for selling a desktop app you built using A5V9 you would be able to get OEM licenses at a much lower price than the normal RT licenses...

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